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  1. #361

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zerkul View Post
    Cooldown on mana pots?

    Then add a cooldown to Silver Flame Healing pots and we're even.

    The reason is simple ...
    Caster Mana Bar = Quest Completion.
    Melee Red Bar = Quest Completion.
    Your caster won't solo anymore but your melee won't as well: AND THIS IS JUST FAIR.

    EDIT: [Trollmode=ON]You guys can stop posting now .[/Trollmode=OFF]
    No we're not. The difference between some healing with an existing debuff on it already compared to what can be done with the versatility that comes with the SP is much more significant. On an approximate apples to apples comparison we're looking at 250 hp healing with a debuff compared to mass heal at least 3 times healing at least 1 person at least 510 hp with no debuff and much more likely much more for the group.

    How that even a close comparison?
    Last edited by Aashrym; 11-18-2012 at 03:19 PM.

  2. #362
    Community Member Xezrak's Avatar
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    I think a reasonable way to implement this change would be 1 sp pot per minute per person, however you can 'feed' your sp pot to other people.

    This will address the issue of healers having to use up all the sp pots to clutch a group.

    It will also remove the 'OP' issue of casters as when you are soloing etc. you won't just be able to chug 5/6 pots to brute force through various situations.

    Finally if you are in a party or more importantly a raid you will still have sufficient sp pots to clutch if need be and the party is willing/capable of finishing.

    Edit: Also I usually stick up for arcanes, my main is an arcane wf sorc, I don't think as a class on its own it is OP, but I agree due to SP pots and ONLY due to SP pots we can have an unfair advantage, I think instead of sp pots make heal potions available in game, that way all classes not just casters can benefit.

    Edit2: Actually it should every 2 minutes not every minute
    Last edited by Xezrak; 11-18-2012 at 02:20 PM.
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  3. #363
    Founder Sojourner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vVvAiaynAvVv View Post
    I just wonder though...I agree F2P saved the game....but if that was enough why did they move on to P2W as well....I think at least the evil overlords at TW had this in mind all along.
    The problem with F2P is that you have to figure out how to get more money out of all those people playing for free than they are costing you for being there. They use up server / database / bandwidth resources.

    Selling cosmetic items isn't going to be enough. Not enough people are going to spend enough money on cosmetic items to make it profitable. So then they have to sell items that WILL make enough money to recoup the cost of all those "F2P" players. And, what will those players pay for? Things that help them "win" -- XP bonuses, skill/stat bonuses, access to rare items, items that are difficult to acquire through normal loot mechanisms, etc.

    At which point the game goes from F2P to P2W. And then it becomes a question of just how much do players HAVE to pay in order to win. So far - DDO is pretty good about this. There are bunches of items you can buy to help make the game easier, but nothing is really required to play. You don't HAVE to buy their store items in order to beat any of the missions.

    The fear is though, that as some of these items (mana pots in this thread) become more common, the developers will begin to create quests that will be just about impossible (or are completely impossible) to complete without these store-bought items.

    To my mind - this thread is about ensuring that they will never be more than a help, rather than something that could become a requirement. Trying to think ahead before it becomes a problem rather than struggling to figure out a way to fix it after it has.


    As for F2P being something that saved this game --- without seeing all of Turbine's financial numbers, there is no way to tell. There is no way of knowing if the store purchases from F2P players compared to what they cost the game is enough of a profit to make a significant difference from what the P2P memberships and store purchases are.

    In my mind - F2P and hirelings are the two worst things to happen to DDO. But, can't prove it one way or another without seeing all the private financial numbers that we'll never get access to.



    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    Hate to tell you but all MMOs even sub only ones have forms of P2W usually in the form of veteran rewards. Perks and often in game abilities and items, that you can only get by having spent more longer then new comers.
    There's a big difference between P2W and "perks". Cosmetic clothing, housing, vanity pets - all those are common perks and none of which actually help players "win". Even items like a faster mount, teleportation, or something like that don't really help win so much as let them get from mission to mission slightly faster. I certainly wouldn't call a "warp time" pendent type item much of a P2W perk.


    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    But the fact is it was pay to win even prior to that. People spent real money often on DDO gold back in the day and frankly would speak of it in a tone of pride like haha I cheated and am now richer then you kind of tones. These same people would buy up all the mana pots at ridiculous prices setting the current over priced standard we all know today.
    Again - a big difference between the game/developers fostering a P2W mindset, and players who buy from gold-farmers or anything like that. There are always going to be cheaters, who are willing to spend money in order to buy in-game money/items/characters.
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  4. #364
    Community Member Xezrak's Avatar
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    I don't mind P2W in the form of you buy cosmetic pets, which you can sell at AH and then gain plat. I honestly want turbine to make more money because without that this game couldn't really exist - one of the things i've suggested is make Adventure packs an item which can be sold on the AH (sell as a map usable item).

    What I don't like to see is P2W where paying characters are significantly stronger than none paying characters, eg. through sp pots. As the poster above me has said, this may result in quests being developed where the difficulty/mechanics is such that you have to use those P2W features in order to succeed. When that happens I feel the game will eventually die out.

    Edit: For reference I am premium account holder who owns all adventure packs including U16 and I have purchased other items including cosmetic pets from the store.
    Last edited by Xezrak; 11-18-2012 at 04:27 PM.
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  5. #365
    Community Member Zerkul's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Not fair comparison you guys did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    No - silver flame potions already have a penalty, -10 to all stats and saves.

    You want to be even? Dont add a cooldown to mana potions, instead add a movement penalty and a -10 to all stats and saves penalty to mana pots. Thats even.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    No we're not. The difference between some healing with an existing debuff on it already compared to what can be done with the versatility that comes with the SP is much more significant. On an approximate apples to apples comparison we're looking at 250 hp healing with a debuff compared to mass heal at least 3 times healing at least 1 person at least 510 hp with no debuff and much more likely much more for the group.

    How that even a close comparison?
    Someone already answered you both, read below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaos000 View Post
    I'd be interested if there were mana pots you can buy at a favor vendor. Equivalent of major mnenonic potions with movement pen and -10 to all stats and saves. Shoot. It would definitely be something I would take advantage of between combat... pot back up to full mana, wait for penalty to wear off and continue on.
    Silver Flame Pots can be bought at patron vendor for Platinum.
    Major Mnemonic Enhancers can be bought just off Auction House or found in chests and rewards (or at DDO Store for real money) as an uncommon treasure.

    You can have how many pots your inventory can hold.
    You can have that many Major Mnemonic Enhancers as you found or bought by playing.

    This is a very IMPORTAT difference.

    And furthermore be honest with yourselves: those penalities on the Silver Flame pots are irrelevant → There's a lot of people like me that keep fighting while drinking those and do not heal for 250 hps but for above 500 (healing amplification can be optimized even on pure 20 builds like my Fighter)!

    Silver Flame pots are the real difference between life and death for melees like Majors Mnemonic Enhancers can be for casters.
    Last edited by Zerkul; 11-18-2012 at 04:35 PM.
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  6. #366

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zerkul View Post
    Silver Flame Pots can be bought at patron vendor for Platinum.
    Major Mnemonic Enhancers can be bought just off Auction House or found in chests and rewards (or at DDO Store for real money) as an uncommon treasure.

    You can have how many pots your inventory can hold.
    You can have that many Major Mnemonic Enhancers as you found or bought by playing.

    This is a very IMPORTAT difference.

    And furthermore be honest with yourselves: those penalities on the Silver Flame pots are irrelevant → There's a lot of people like me that keep fighting while drinking those and do not heal for 250 hps but for above 500 (healing amplification can be optimized even on pure 20 builds like my Fighter)!

    Silver Flame pots are the real difference between life and death for melees like Majors Mnemonic Enhancers can be for casters.
    SF pots also require SF favor whereas SP potions, even majors, will now drop in breakables and can be purchased for TP and can be purchased for plat (edit: in the AH that is) and the trinket can be farmed for free hunting eberron shards.

    Regardless of the fact SP potions very easily accessible your comments don't actually dispute the level of power the SP provides by fueling spells over the amount of hit points healed by the SF pot. To the contrary, you can demonstrate that with the healing amp you just illustrated brings my comparison to a minimum 1020 hit points for a single target.

    There is no possible way to place healing items in the same league as SP potions because the SP potions will allow for healing greater amounts plus more, and without the penalty associated with SF pots or the favor unlock required. SF pots are good, don't get me wrong, but SP majors are in a whole other league.
    Last edited by Aashrym; 11-18-2012 at 05:10 PM.

  7. #367
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xezrak View Post
    I think a reasonable way to implement this change would be 1 sp pot per minute per person, however you can 'feed' your sp pot to other people.

    This will address the issue of healers having to use up all the sp pots to clutch a group.

    It will also remove the 'OP' issue of casters as when you are soloing etc. you won't just be able to chug 5/6 pots to brute force through various situations.

    Finally if you are in a party or more importantly a raid you will still have sufficient sp pots to clutch if need be and the party is willing/capable of finishing.

    Edit: Also I usually stick up for arcanes, my main is an arcane wf sorc, I don't think as a class on its own it is OP, but I agree due to SP pots and ONLY due to SP pots we can have an unfair advantage, I think instead of sp pots make heal potions available in game, that way all classes not just casters can benefit.

    Edit2: Actually it should every 2 minutes not every minute
    The reasonable way is to NOT change the game to suit one person and how he/she thinks every single one of us should play.

    That is reasonable. That is logical. That is in the best interest of all that play DDO.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
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  8. #368
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    why is there a comparison with SF pots and mana pots? thats just silly.

  9. #369
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    why is there a comparison with SF pots and mana pots? thats just silly.
    This is a fantasy online MMO forum. Silly is part of everyday.


    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  10. #370
    Hero RequiemVampie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    It is just high time the devs did this. I would suggest a one minute timer before a player can drink another mana pot. I do not have any problem with failing more quests because quite frankly if I have to drink mana pots to beat a quest I do not deserve to beat the quest. Failing quests just makes the victories that much more sweet and encourages higher quality game play. There are no mana pots in D&D.

    This game is too easy. 4 or 5 years ago DDO was so much more difficult. If you the devs are opposed to this on the normal or hard difficulties at least consider it for the elite difficulty. Thanks for striving to improve the game play.
    /not signed

    There are no pots in PnP D&D because there are no Spell Points, but Spell Slots. Do you honestly think that people would play casters or clerics if they could only cast 5 Heal spells or 4 Finger of Death spells. I sure wouldn't.

    If you don't wanna chug pots, then don't. That is your decision. If the run looks like a wipe regardless, I'd rather drop or give up. I chug mana pots only if I have to. And if I do for a difficult run, I can usually get a couple pots from the group.
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  11. #371
    Community Member Zerkul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    SF pots also require SF favor whereas SP potions, even majors, will now drop in breakables and can be purchased for TP and can be purchased for plat (edit: in the AH that is) and the trinket can be farmed for free hunting eberron shards.

    Regardless of the fact SP potions very easily accessible your comments don't actually dispute the level of power the SP provides by fueling spells over the amount of hit points healed by the SF pot. To the contrary, you can demonstrate that with the healing amp you just illustrated brings my comparison to a minimum 1020 hit points for a single target.

    There is no possible way to place healing items in the same league as SP potions because the SP potions will allow for healing greater amounts plus more, and without the penalty associated with SF pots or the favor unlock required. SF pots are good, don't get me wrong, but SP majors are in a whole other league.
    You don't drink as many Major Pots as Silver Flames. So let's do something nice: Silver flames pots 20sec cooldown while major 1min each. This should balance the "league" you talking about.
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  12. #372
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RequiemVampie View Post
    /not signed

    There are no pots in PnP D&D because there are no Spell Points, but Spell Slots. Do you honestly think that people would play casters or clerics if they could only cast 5 Heal spells or 4 Finger of Death spells. I sure wouldn't.

    If you don't wanna chug pots, then don't. That is your decision. If the run looks like a wipe regardless, I'd rather drop or give up. I chug mana pots only if I have to. And if I do for a difficult run, I can usually get a couple pots from the group.
    3.5 does have a Spell point variant http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm which is what the SP system in DDO is based upon. This variant is useful in some groups as it takes the # of Spells per level (Slots) and transfers it to a Cost system that allows them to be more flexible. It is still limited to memorized spells, but is now not limited to how many of each, or level you can cast as long as you have the points.

    This system works well when translated to a video game like DDO. But as seen it can be abused in a situation where someone can purchase SP by any means.

  13. #373
    Community Member Sweyn's Avatar
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    Before store pots and even moreso before the challenge chest exploit, drinking a pot was a really big deal. They were extremely expensive and you felt bad if the healer drank even one to finish a quest. Back then a timer on the pots was not necessary.

    Nowadays with the virtually unlimited supply of in game pots, plus an unlimited supply of store pots, people spam like crazy and drink to win (myself included). IMO, this would be a good change

    /signed
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  14. #374
    2014 DDO Players Council Flavilandile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    The onus should not be on you as the healer to pay for the completion for the entire group, either with store currency or game currency to the extent SP potions cost, while the rest of the group develops this unrealistic expectation that this is the way the game is played. If the group needs excessive amounts of SP pots to recover I would call that a failed run and disagree with the expectation that SP pots should be so readily available in such a case.
    In my case, I don't pay for them, I'm in a great guild and the mana pot cost is ( more than ) covered in cases like that. ( and in any other case when such pots are used )
    I said that it happens rarely... I really meant rarely two or three times a year... And the main point of potions usage is to be able to discern if using them is going to have any impact on the quest result or not. If it's not going to change anything, there no point in drinking them.

    I remember the discussion about the Mana potions when we first heard about them, and almost everybody was against them ( me included ). Since then, in my case, I find them useful to have around, in very specific cases, but I can live without them.
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  15. #375
    The Hatchery vVvAiaynAvVv's Avatar
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    The fact that this thread went this many pages is a sure sign that something soon is gonna happen with how potions are used regarding health and spell points.

    I have yet to experience a single change in this game tho that has ruined one of my characters.

    Simplified even moreso now by fact that I only play one character.....so if and when something happens my first concern is to adapt....not worry that the new nerf is going to kill my character.

    Scratt for president!!!!

  16. #376
    Founder Chaos000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweyn View Post
    Nowadays with the virtually unlimited supply of in game pots, plus an unlimited supply of store pots, people spam like crazy and drink to win (myself included). IMO, this would be a good change
    Spamming like crazy and drinking to win is a lot of fun. Then you realize how much you spent in terms of plat or real world money for that limited amount of fun.

    I like that the game has a golden parachute. It helps to compensate for poor tactics by players you are grouped in or players that are woefully lacking in gear. (at level 8 round elite shroud anyone?) There is enough of a cost involved that drinking potions every couple seconds will deplete your "near endless" supply of pots. If you get killed after drinking 38 mana pots and the total party wipe ends the raid, it would be more of a pay for a chance to win.

    Every mana pot guzzler is one more player buying out the supply of mana pots in the AH and therefore reducing the amount of potions available to buy with in-game money. If they keep it up they will eventually run out of plat and end up preventing more layoffs at turbine.
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  17. #377
    Founder Chaos000's Avatar
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    What I would like to see in stores is in-game items that could eliminate late penalties, get a mulligan on breaking bravery bonus streaks, and re-entry penalties.

    xp stones would be nice too....
    Daishado

    "drink triple ... see double ... act single! uh oh wife aggro" *hides*

  18. #378

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flavilandile View Post
    In my case, I don't pay for them, I'm in a great guild and the mana pot cost is ( more than ) covered in cases like that. ( and in any other case when such pots are used )
    I said that it happens rarely... I really meant rarely two or three times a year... And the main point of potions usage is to be able to discern if using them is going to have any impact on the quest result or not. If it's not going to change anything, there no point in drinking them.

    I remember the discussion about the Mana potions when we first heard about them, and almost everybody was against them ( me included ). Since then, in my case, I find them useful to have around, in very specific cases, but I can live without them.
    I wouldn't be for removing them tho, just restricting some over-abundant access. That could be and adjustment to drop rates or actual SP regained as alternatives. I don't buy them in the store or the AH either but seem to find more than enough for what I do use plus stockpile some. It's like walking down the street with people screaming, "you deserve free money!!" sometimes.

    Accessibility is compounded by the fact 105-600 does more for a person now with cheap SLA's, reduced cost on spells after the spell pass, and some low SP epic abilities.

    It also seems backwards to make some things that provide SP hard to acquire like an epic ring of spell storing or a mysterious bauble because the SP is powerful but a person ends up with countless SP potions just farming those items. 3 charges per rest is not nearly as powerful as being able to simply purchase a stack of potions.

  19. #379
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zerkul View Post
    Someone already answered you both, read below.



    Silver Flame Pots can be bought at patron vendor for Platinum.
    Major Mnemonic Enhancers can be bought just off Auction House or found in chests and rewards (or at DDO Store for real money) as an uncommon treasure.

    You can have how many pots your inventory can hold.
    You can have that many Major Mnemonic Enhancers as you found or bought by playing.

    This is a very IMPORTAT difference.

    And furthermore be honest with yourselves: those penalities on the Silver Flame pots are irrelevant → There's a lot of people like me that keep fighting while drinking those and do not heal for 250 hps but for above 500 (healing amplification can be optimized even on pure 20 builds like my Fighter)!

    Silver Flame pots are the real difference between life and death for melees like Majors Mnemonic Enhancers can be for casters.
    Not a fair comparison either. You're suggesting that the only way that a melee can stay healed is with silver flame, but that's not correct. A healer, or anyone with umd, can heal a melee up. In your apples to apples comparison, how does your party contribute to the mana of your caster?

  20. #380
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zerkul View Post
    Silver Flame pots are the real difference between life and death for melees like Majors Mnemonic Enhancers can be for casters.
    What about adding a 50% movement penalty and -10 to all stats except con when drinking a mnemonic then?

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