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  1. #341
    The Hatchery Drekisen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Moar Money. If a for profit business can make 110% of their goal with f2p or 120% of their goal with f2p + p2w, which do you think they will choose?

    But first they have to ween people onto the p2w teet. They cant do this overnight. It took 3 years of slowly injecting it into the game in order to do it slow enough to not draw that much attention to itself. Had DDO gone from what it was in 2008 to the amount of P2W we see today in the game overnight, that would have been all she wrote.

    This is why we seen this high level of denial when this is explained to people. It didnt all happen at once. Some of us can still remember when it wasnt needed, when the game was much harder. We also understand its not needed now, but this gets adamantly refused by those who are so weened onto it they cant believe anyone succeeds without it.
    Exactly what I was saying...they had this planned the whole time tho IMO......I don't think they ever intended to just save it with F2P...I think P2W was thier long term goal to begin with when they bought them out.

    DnD alone is a huge name......so it made it a pretty sound investment.

    The people who are weened are unfortunately already weened...I doubt we will change that...we will just have to depend on our superior skills of real play

  2. #342
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisdinus7 View Post
    I don't have that kind of time, . I asked you because I I thought you were more likely than them to actual have some and I was honestly interested in seeing it if you did. Wasn't meant as an attack. I think both sides have some reasonable points, and some silly arguments. The issue doesn't have much impact on my playstyle, and I am fairly neutral on the outcome.
    Naa wed have to dip into Turbines numbers in order to have any hard evidence on either side.

    We can however observe the history of games that turned p2w and the impact it had on those games. Its not a pretty road to walk down thats for sure.

  3. #343
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vVvAiaynAvVv View Post
    Exactly what I was saying...they had this planned the whole time tho IMO......I don't think they ever intended to just save it with F2P...I think P2W was thier long term goal to begin with when they bought them out.

    DnD alone is a huge name......so it made it a pretty sound investment.

    The people who are weened are unfortunately already weened...I doubt we will change that...we will just have to depend on our superior skills of real play
    When I posted this a few years ago I was told to take the tinfoil hat off and the forumites agreed it would never get this bad. It was in a thread regarding xp potions, where I stated that if they had made TR xp require 4.3m points to cap on the same day they began selling xp pots and xp tomes in the store it would ahve been a full on riot. So they put the arbitrary xp ramp up in first, and let everyone complain about it for quite some time, then put xp potions in the store. The forumites who would have rioted in the former scenario praised Turbine in the latter.

    My analogy at that time was gas prices. Lets say gas prices are 2.50 a gallin. If youre some billionaire tycoon who wants to jack up gas prices to 4 dollars a gallon, you dont just ramp em up to that price. What you do is ramp em up to 5.50 a gallon, watch the panic ensue, and then when people are all trying to be conservative and use less gas you lower the price to right where you want it. They will praise you due to having forgotten that it was you who was the one who jacked up the price in the first place.

  4. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scraap View Post
    Funny. Seems to me the thread's entirely about whether keeping spell-spam under control is desirable or not. Folks just seem to want to conveniently forget about restorative spell-spam.
    I do not understand how you can say that . . . power-healing your way through stuff with pots has been discussed.
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    Ape_Man does clever trolling nothing more. Don't feed him/her.

  5. #345
    Community Member OrodelaSol's Avatar
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    what about xp pots then? shouldn't they limit the usage of them as well? makes leveling "too easy..." or heal scrolls? or... come on...if u don't want to use them dont. not wrong for others to if they choose. (i choose not to because i am a miserely bstard...) what else should u do with the ones u find? sell on ah for obscene plat n then expect others not to use them?

  6. #346
    The Hatchery Tiseria's Avatar
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    This thread has now reached assinine level.

    Definition:
    2.like ass: relating to or resembling an ass

    Like having to use pots is attacking on a personal level.. this is pathetic.
    Last edited by Tiseria; 11-17-2012 at 10:07 PM.
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  7. #347
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    holy crud this thread is still going!

    I gotta admit that is impressive ... it's Alive .... ALIVE!!



  8. #348
    The Hatchery Drekisen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post
    holy crud this thread is still going!

    I gotta admit that is impressive ... it's Alive .... ALIVE!!

    I'm bored with it...I am going for a roll in the hay


  9. #349
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pHo3nix View Post
    Ok thx for the advice, next time i'm going to play football i'll only jump on my left leg if the other team sucks, so the fact of hitting the ball will already be a challenge..
    I am not certain which is more amusing, how you intentionally ignore the well reasoned response to your post, or that you think anyone believes you play actual football.

    If you played actual football, or any sporting activity, you would know how silly it is to compare sports to video games. Even chess is a poor comparison.

    The real situation here is that after YEARS of playing the same game, some people do not find it challenging any more. Any other video game would get shelved for a new one, but DDO players can't seem to do this so they demand the game is tailored to them so they do not have to move on. This is bizarre reasoning, but I suppose it is a testament to how good DDO is if people would rather spend hours trying to convince Turbine and other players to change the game for them rather than just move on.


    When I was very young I enjoyed Chutes & Ladders. I outgrew that game. Rather than petition Milton Bradley to change the rules and mechanincs of the game for everyone in order to make it more challenging for me personally, I moved on to other games. Same with Go Fish, Risk, Pac Man, Civilization, Sim City, etc.


    Sometimes my friends and I would implement our own house rules to keep a game interesting for a while longer. But every game has a lifespan, and if the OP finds it boring and he is not interested in implementing house rules to spice it up, then he just needs to move on.

  10. #350
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Nm
    Last edited by Postumus; 11-18-2012 at 04:09 AM.

  11. #351
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vVvAiaynAvVv View Post
    I'm bored with it...I am going for a roll in the hay

    "My, what knockers!"

  12. #352
    Community Member pHo3nix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    I am not certain which is more amusing, how you intentionally ignore the well reasoned response to your post, or that you think anyone believes you play actual football.

    If you played actual football, or any sporting activity, you would know how silly it is to compare sports to video games. Even chess is a poor comparison.
    You are right, I am 140kg x 1.50m and live in a basement, i do not play any sports and i'm so silly to think to make simple comparisons for people to understand...luckily i got you to enlighten me. Thank you really much, my life will be a lot better from now on

    Just to point out the contradiction of the defenders of sp pots:
    -There aren't that many people chugging them, most people use just 1-2 and only in emergencies, basically nobody is chugging his way to the completion.
    -Removing them won't happen cause they are an important source of income for turbine.

    So, from what we get from this is that they sell a lot of sp pots to people that then just keep stacks of them in their inventory to look at them and link them in party chat.

    It makes perfect sense

    Have a nice day
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  13. #353
    Community Member Flavilandile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pHo3nix View Post
    -There aren't that many people chugging them, most people use just 1-2 and only in emergencies, basically nobody is chugging his way to the completion.
    There are situations when, as a Cleric, you will mana pot your way to completion. Trust me, been there, done that.
    I agree that they are rare and more in the exceptional league, but it happens.
    And when it happens you do not want to wait for an undefined number of minutes between each mana pots, you need to drink 5/6 as fast as possible to refill your mana because said mana is going down like water in a pierced bottle.
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  14. #354
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    The real situation here is that after YEARS of playing the same game, some people do not find it challenging any more. Any other video game would get shelved for a new one, but DDO players can't seem to do this so they demand the game is tailored to them so they do not have to move on. This is bizarre reasoning, but I suppose it is a testament to how good DDO is if people would rather spend hours trying to convince Turbine and other players to change the game for them rather than just move on.
    This is very close but not exact to my reasoning. Ill make the changes that put it on par with my line of thinking.

    -MY CHANGES or ADDITIONS LOOK LIKE THIS-

    The real situation here is that after years of playing the same game, some people do not find it challenging any more. Any other video game would get shelved for a new one, but DDO players can't seem to do this so they demand the game is tailored to -THE WAY THE GAME USED TO BE- so they do not have to move on. This is bizarre reasoning, but I suppose it is a testament to how good DDO -WAS- if people would rather spend hours trying to convince Turbine and other players to change the game -TO WHAT IS WAS LIKE WHEN THEY JOINED- rather than just move on.

    If a game starts off as an easy peasy p2w game thats fantastic, I dont have to play it if I dont like it. DDO didnt start off like that though, which is in part why this game was awesome, and convinced alot of the older niche D&D crowd to play for a long period of time. Now we see Turbine changing the game into something many people wouldnt have started playing in the first place if it was like this from day one. We have eons of time invested in playing DDO however, so its not just easy to pack up and leave when one thing happens that we dont like. This is why you see alot of threats of leaving, and very few of those threats are carried out. This doesnt change the fact that initiating alot of p2w is bad for the game from a player standpoint, which is why I feel its odd that many of the same people who support endless mana pots are the ones who complained about this huge playskill disparity in PUGs in the past. That skill disparity exists in part due to easy buttons like having a tanker truck full of mana juice in ones backpack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    When I was very young I enjoyed Chutes & Ladders. I outgrew that game. Rather than petition Milton Bradley to change the rules and mechanincs of the game for everyone in order to make it more challenging for me personally, I moved on to other games. Same with Go Fish, Risk, Pac Man, Civilization, Sim City, etc.

    Sometimes my friends and I would implement our own house rules to keep a game interesting for a while longer. But every game has a lifespan, and if the OP finds it boring and he is not interested in implementing house rules to spice it up, then he just needs to move on.
    Chutes and ladders didnt initiate a "pay to avoid learning curve" or some such after you played it for 6 years though. You also didnt have to pay to play it for 6 years. Its also not a progression game where the longer you play generally the more powerful you become. Players also dont get addicted to it like pixelated crack like they do MMOs.
    Last edited by Chai; 11-18-2012 at 12:15 PM.

  15. #355
    Community Member Zerkul's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Be Fair

    Cooldown on mana pots?

    Then add a cooldown to Silver Flame Healing pots and we're even.

    The reason is simple ...
    Caster Mana Bar = Quest Completion.
    Melee Red Bar = Quest Completion.
    Your caster won't solo anymore but your melee won't as well: AND THIS IS JUST FAIR.

    EDIT: [Trollmode=ON]You guys can stop posting now .[/Trollmode=OFF]
    Last edited by Zerkul; 11-18-2012 at 12:02 PM.
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  16. #356
    Hatchery Hero Sonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    I am not certain which is more amusing, how you intentionally ignore the well reasoned response to your post, or that you think anyone believes you play actual football.

    If you played actual football, or any sporting activity, you would know how silly it is to compare sports to video games. Even chess is a poor comparison.

    The real situation here is that after YEARS of playing the same game, some people do not find it challenging any more. Any other video game would get shelved for a new one, but DDO players can't seem to do this so they demand the game is tailored to them so they do not have to move on. This is bizarre reasoning, but I suppose it is a testament to how good DDO is if people would rather spend hours trying to convince Turbine and other players to change the game for them rather than just move on.


    When I was very young I enjoyed Chutes & Ladders. I outgrew that game. Rather than petition Milton Bradley to change the rules and mechanincs of the game for everyone in order to make it more challenging for me personally, I moved on to other games. Same with Go Fish, Risk, Pac Man, Civilization, Sim City, etc.


    Sometimes my friends and I would implement our own house rules to keep a game interesting for a while longer. But every game has a lifespan, and if the OP finds it boring and he is not interested in implementing house rules to spice it up, then he just needs to move on.
    This is the point right? You've been playing the game for 6 years and it's too easy. Who in their frakking minds plays the same game for 6 years? It must be a good game. By now you have established every solid tactic in the game, procured most of the best gear, and know EXACTLY where everything spawns and are at the ready. More importantly, you have joined a guild or channel where you are playing with players at your skill level.

    When I am playin with guild or channel members, I rarely have to drink a pot, if I do, it's for my own selfish reasons and not to save the day.

    BUT, if I am playing as a healer or caster in a pug of new people, I'll be damned if I am going to recall every time it goes south, because that becomes fun in no seconds flat. It's my prerogative to drink those 10 pots in the old Devil's Assault because the arti, 2 bards, and new paladin just aren't cutting the mustard? You are damn right.

    PLAY YOUR GAME. STOP PLAYING MINE. We really don't need to hear anymore about how awesome you are after playing for 6yrs. It's dumb.

    Next up is a Stamina bar. I mean really, should a toon be able to swing for 5 mins. without being tired? Then we could get stamina potions and put cooldowns on them. Then we'll put a timer on heal scrolls for Helfs. then we'll find some other way to nerf something because we are so completely bored off of our arses that we need to meddle in things that have no consequence to us.

  17. #357
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zerkul View Post
    Cooldown on mana pots?

    Then add a cooldown to Silver Flame Healing pots and we're even.

    The reason is simple ...
    Caster Mana Bar = Quest Completion.
    Melee Red Bar = Quest Completion.
    Your caster won't solo anymore but your melee won't as well: AND THIS IS JUST FAIR.

    EDIT: [Trollmode=ON]You guys can stop posting now .[/Trollmode=OFF]
    No - silver flame potions already have a penalty, -10 to all stats and saves.

    You want to be even? Dont add a cooldown to mana potions, instead add a movement penalty and a -10 to all stats and saves penalty to mana pots. Thats even.

  18. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    And what are you backing your claims with exactly.

    I find that the people who demand evidence the most are the ones who provide the least of it themselves.

    Its not a strawman (which is a buzzword thrown around on the forums alot, and most of the quotes its used to described do not fit the definition of), it is reality. DDO is now a pay to cheat by circumventing game balance (as defined by the devs themselves) game, where the more money you pay, the more advantage you have. Mana potions makes up for lack of experienced play, because the experienced players who refuse to use them know how to manage their SP in order to not have to use them.

    Turbine has you weened to this new reality of the game to the point where you will quote anyone who doesnt support it and disagree with them in a knee jerk fashion, bringing no more evidence to the table than those you demand it from. In this you contradict yourself on multiple fronts. If you define this as a strawman, then it must grate on the nerves to know that the strawman is absolutely correct. You clearly understand mana potions are the rule and not the exception for most players nowdays, and adamantly refuse to believe that people play this game without them.
    Hate to tell you but all MMOs even sub only ones have forms of P2W usually in the form of veteran rewards. Perks and often in game abilities and items, that you can only get by having spent more longer then new comers.

    Likewise DDO Store pretty much began with mana pots from what I recall, mana pots where yes the first and last step in p2W, and why I never have had issue with other things like stat tomes and any form of gear, as in the end its blue bar that moves DDO groups 90% of the time, this is especially true of raiders who sometimes have to make do with one healer, and then will if lead by a good player will see a mana pot tithing to the healer before it begins so no one will be wondering if there is enough blue to sustain the parties red.

    Trying to say they slowing weened us is silly. FtP and the nearly have to have mana pots are one in the same system.

    But the fact is it was pay to win even prior to that. People spent real money often on DDO gold back in the day and frankly would speak of it in a tone of pride like haha I cheated and am now richer then you kind of tones. These same people would buy up all the mana pots at ridiculous prices setting the current over priced standard we all know today.

    The fact is they took advantage of alot of complaints from casuals to create a higher demand, as many will say alot of content like CiTW especially for first time groups equaled alot of mana pots being guzzled. Because no one wants to waste time on a game, and anything short of completion in DDO is a waste of time.

    They did this by training us a long time ago, that it isnt about doing fun exciting new content, but grinding out the shiny new toy. Its why people ran shroud over and over in the era of the hamster wheel of death. Now days even though a part of me for example craves the new and unknown challenge, it just isnt what I look for when on DDO, I look forward to xp and loot to develop another character, because deep down making new and different characters was even in PNP one of the great fun ways to spend time. This is partly why the actual questing in DDO has taken a back seat, people want to make characters more then play the game, something you see at a PnP table when people are bored with the current campaign they start rolling up new ideas for characters for the next adventure.

    DDO did this to itself by not recognizing what is the fun factor and what is the frustration factor. By not making character development and improvment more painless and allow more people to make more characters that felt effective.

    Once the TR system was added it pretty much nailed the coffin shut on actually enjoying each character, and the constant amount of Bound to character gear made it even more essential to focus on a single character and aquire the gear he will need in every life towards completionist. This then impacted pug groups and the sharing of named loot. Which lead to an increase in loot drama.

    Frankly its always been easy for me to see what is wrong and what Id fix to make DDO great, but I also know it would drive off many of the lesser wannaRPers who never where trained at a proper hard core table top where tears would flow over a fallen favorite character before moving on to roll up a new one.

  19. #359
    Founder Chaos000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    No - silver flame potions already have a penalty, -10 to all stats and saves.

    You want to be even? Dont add a cooldown to mana potions, instead add a movement penalty and a -10 to all stats and saves penalty to mana pots. Thats even.
    I'd be interested if there were mana pots you can buy at a favor vendor. Equivalent of major mnenonic potions with movement pen and -10 to all stats and saves. Shoot. It would definitely be something I would take advantage of between combat... pot back up to full mana, wait for penalty to wear off and continue on.
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  20. #360

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flavilandile View Post
    There are situations when, as a Cleric, you will mana pot your way to completion. Trust me, been there, done that.
    I agree that they are rare and more in the exceptional league, but it happens.
    And when it happens you do not want to wait for an undefined number of minutes between each mana pots, you need to drink 5/6 as fast as possible to refill your mana because said mana is going down like water in a pierced bottle.
    That makes you an enabler.

    More seriously, that is part of what I have against SP pots. The onus should not be on you as the healer to pay for the completion for the entire group, either with store currency or game currency to the extent SP potions cost, while the rest of the group develops this unrealistic expectation that this is the way the game is played. If the group needs excessive amounts of SP pots to recover I would call that a failed run and disagree with the expectation that SP pots should be so readily available in such a case. It's okay to fail a run if the group didn't have their **** together.

    Having said that, your choice to try and save a run at your expense really is your choice. I don't want other players to assume everyone will or should do that and that is the impact your choice can have on me in that particular example.

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