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  1. #301
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    The level of bad strawman arguments in this thread have reached epic proportions.

    For you occasional pot drinkers . . . would a 1/2/5 minute cooldown in an means stop you from continuing to play how you play now?

    Has anyone actually claimed to have NEVER drank a pot on a caster? I haven't seen it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Wouldnt need to. Never have before on an arcane.
    `Nuff said.
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  2. #302
    The Hatchery vVvAiaynAvVv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    The level of bad strawman arguments in this thread have reached epic proportions.

    For you occasional pot drinkers . . . would a 1/2/5 minute cooldown in an means stop you from continuing to play how you play now?

    Has anyone actually claimed to have NEVER drank a pot on a caster? I haven't seen it.
    Yeah...for some if would make a big difference...very big.

    Me personally...I am totally miserly with mine....if I am in a bad group I will let it wipe before I drink one.....it really depends on how bad I want something from that quest and how many potions I have stocked.

    I did drink 20+ pots one time doing the old school Epic Devil Assault just because I had so many potions and I wanted the tokens and chances at other stuff...the end chests for that used to be very sweet on epic.

    However for one all of those potions were earned from playing in game.....not given to me or bought from the store......and for two if they want a timer on potions I want passive regen on health and spell points......otherwise this suggestion is an epic failure.

    Scratt for president!!!!

  3. #303

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    Quote Originally Posted by vVvAiaynAvVv View Post
    Don't blame the players and how they play........I say and I QUOTE as close as I can..."the devs originally stated the store would never have "game-breaking" items added to it."

    Don't punish the people who get there mnemonics by actually playing......heck let the store ones have timers and the in-game ones not...from what they originally said stuff like mnemonics were never supposed to be added to the store.

    And I still have to see anyone else comment on the fact that every other MMO with long cooldowns on potions also have constant passive regenration of health and magic.....so if they want to add timers on potions they better add that as well......oh but wait...then the game will be "too easy" again
    Having played several of those other MMOs, I'd say that isn't a fair comparison. They are balanced differently. You are expected to go into every fight with full mana and to be regaining mana throughout that fight. So, such games are geared to require a lot more mana per fight. What happens then, is that the conservation of resources moves from, "not running out of mana before the next shrine" to "not spending mana faster than I regain it" or close to since you have a mana pool buffer. Mana conservation is quite important in those games as well. From my personal experience, it is actual more important (like healing in GW1 PvP or WoW raids).

  4. #304
    The Hatchery vVvAiaynAvVv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisdinus7 View Post
    Having played several of those other MMOs, I'd say that isn't a fair comparison. They are balanced differently. You are expected to go into every fight with full mana and to be regaining mana throughout that fight. So, such games are geared to require a lot more mana per fight. What happens then, is that the conservation of resources moves from, "not running out of mana before the next shrine" to "not spending mana faster than I regain it" or close to since you have a mana pool buffer. Mana conservation is quite important in those games as well. From my personal experience, it is actual more important (like healing in GW1 PvP or WoW raids).
    Yeah but in those games you can also stand around and regen before you get to the next fight.....which I suppose would be comparable to having to wait or kite a mob waiting for a potion timer.

    Doing that in your typical DDO group tho....LOL even the people pushing for this change would be screaming bloody murder whining about their XP/minute being hampered.

    I mean honestly I won't deny that slop play and mnemonicism is just weak.........I think the potions should be tiered tho on timer by which kind they are...and I still vote for at least very slow passive regen to at least a certain percent of full capacity.

    Honestly this will not hit me too hard either way......I am quite good at games like you mentioned so I guess that mana conservation mentality spilled over into my DDO play....as I usually never run out of SP here and switch tactics if something is not working....or if it's a bad group just let everyone die and pop teleport to save myself a bill

    When I first started MMO.....DDO was my first and only game I played...I was a cleric...and I went through many mnemonics, and wands, and scrolls...etc.

    Then I started playing other MMO's.....and came back to DDO and had a much more conservative but way more effective playstyle.

    You know another part of this problem is the rush rush rush and auto win mentality.....this is a big reason why the mnemonics are overused as well......how many people are willing to fail a quest and come back again.........in all my years playing almost no one is willing to do this...they quit....for the night anyways.

    I wonder if they ever put better healing potions in the game if the melees will complain about the 1 minute cooldown they are implemented with?
    Last edited by vVvAiaynAvVv; 11-17-2012 at 02:41 PM.

    Scratt for president!!!!

  5. #305
    Hatchery Hero Sonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vVvAiaynAvVv View Post

    When I first started MMO.....DDO was my first and only game I played...I was a cleric...and I went through many mnemonics, and wands, and scrolls...etc.
    That's actually a valid argument against this thread's nonsense, the obvious one being: This is not a PvP game. This is not Football, or chess, there is not a finite outcome. There is no "winner". How someone plays, or more importantly ENJOYS the game is of no consequence to me.

    Ah back to the other argument. Some players, yours truly included, will drink the blue stuff like water, but eventually, they use less and less. I am surprised by the fewer and fewer quaffs made while running content.

    Sometimes I will still chug a few, making sure I've buffed the party to the nines and want to have some fun nuking like mad. But mainly, and not for economical reasons, I've chilled quite a bit, and many times now, the bauble is all I need(Some don't call it a pot, but I do- it's a replenish-able one but equivalent to a major).

    People learn at different paces. Let em play how they want. If you need to show the world what an amazing DDO player you are, I think there are some Congratulations threads floating around there.

  6. #306
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjadwarf_uk View Post
    See in these two excerpts you're demonstrating a decided lack of willingness to understand that there are people who are different to you.

    You see you like the challenge, you like to have to learn nuances and get skilled at the game.

    Some people like blasting through quests without thought while chugging pots.

    Some have no desire to 'learn' the game or acquire any skill at it and will use whatever 'easy buttons' to facilitate their enjoyment.

    Personally I like challenge, I want to complete quests through my skill, but I can also understand that not everyone is the same and will argue that every play-style has a place in the game.
    Im actually perfectly fine with the fact that people are different than me. This isnt about people changing however, this is about the game changing, and P2W games, and what my observation about them in the MMO world tells me.

    Im perfectly OK with a game starting out as a P2W game and staying a P2W game, because if I dont like it I just wont play it. but if the game I played for 6 years starts to become P2W after 3 years, and by year 5-6 they have most of the players weened onto the P2W teet to the point where they will come to the forums in droves and support more of it, you can see why someone with alot of time invested in what this game USED TO BE, doesnt support it.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  7. #307
    Community Member GreenGurgler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    It is just high time the devs did this. I would suggest a one minute timer before a player can drink another mana pot. I do not have any problem with failing more quests because quite frankly if I have to drink mana pots to beat a quest I do not deserve to beat the quest. Failing quests just makes the victories that much more sweet and encourages higher quality game play. There are no mana pots in D&D.

    This game is too easy. 4 or 5 years ago DDO was so much more difficult. If you the devs are opposed to this on the normal or hard difficulties at least consider it for the elite difficulty. Thanks for striving to improve the game play.
    It is time for you to stop. . . .

    Maybe the game just SEEMS so much less difficult to you now than it did 4 or 5 years ago because you know all the quests inside and out, have mountains of twink gear and even bigger mountains of plat to buy what ever gear you dont have. Not to mention that playing this game for 4 or 5 years has most assuredly created many neural pathways in your brain that makes it so much easier for you to control your character in the precise manner that you wish without ever having to think about the movements/thoughts/tactics involved.

    Perhaps your perception that the game was harder then is more based on your 4 or 5 years of experience, accumulation of resources and physical adaptivness to playing this game that it just seems so much easier. Ask a Brand new player if they agree? Or if they can even afford (or have accumulated a massive stack of) pots to chug every 10 seconds if they agree.

    I am simply pointing out that your conclusion may be based on your experience, not the reality of it. I say this as someone who has also played for 4 or 5 years and has amassed everything I want/need or enough resources to buy what I don't, as someone who can run most quests blindfolded (or intoxicated ), who knows where every trap is, what to expect around every bend, etc as I am sure you have too.

    What could be done to make the game harder/less easy for you and your play style may make it impossible for others.

    You already have the ability to play the way you ask the game to be changed to; simply DO NOT ALLOW yourself to drink more than 1 pot every minute or 5.

    Does it really need to be changed? Are pots really the only thing making the game easier?

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  8. #308
    Community Member Xezrak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Im actually perfectly fine with the fact that people are different than me. This isnt about people changing however, this is about the game changing, and P2W games, and what my observation about them in the MMO world tells me.

    Im perfectly OK with a game starting out as a P2W game and staying a P2W game, because if I dont like it I just wont play it. but if the game I played for 6 years starts to become P2W after 3 years, and by year 5-6 they have most of the players weened onto the P2W teet to the point where they will come to the forums in droves and support more of it, you can see why someone with alot of time invested in what this game USED TO BE, doesnt support it.
    +1 Excellent point,

    When I started looking for a new MMO one of the things that drew me to DDO was the lack of Pay to win and the lack of grind, unfortunately the game is heading towards more of both.

    Also unfortunately as I mentioned previously the ability for arcanes to keep chugging pots does make them relatively OP, which in turn will potentially result in more nerfs to casters. Also it will encourage more raids such as CitW which will then result in chugging pots to become the norm. Which in my opinion discourages players from playing healers, especially outside their guilds.

    Unfortunately sp pots are already a cash cow, I really don't see the change the OP is asking for being implemented.
    "Focus on Adventure Not Grind"

  9. #309
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    Actually, I'm just always suspicious of people who continuously make claims of their skill in the game while making it where almost no one can link your in-game characters to your forum account (I can't even tell what server you're on). In the time I've been on these forums, you've made a LOT of claims about what you do in-game and why stuff doesn't matter because it wouldn't affect you at all...yet you always hide your characters.

    Like I said, in this instance, I find it impossible to play an arcane for a long time without eventually being in a scenario where a pot or two would change the outcome of a quest, and I find it unlikely that you would outright refuse to drink that one or two pots. I'd find it very hard to believe you could be at end-game for too long on an arcane without it happening, especially if you did any epic raiding pre-u14 (eLoB being a prime example...you could do that raid without potting, but it takes practice). As you said you're more into the permadeath playstyle, I guess that would answer why you don't have to use pots on an arcane (not due to lack of availability, but due to less playing of the end-game)...but in my experience, from playing casters in the end-game a lot, I find your claims hard to believe if you've done likewise. For clarification, I'm not talking about guzzling pots...I'm talking about just drinking one or two to make a victory that might not or even won't happen, happen.
    You find it impossible because you are weened onto the easy button that is endless mana potions. You are fully accepting of the fact that the game is now baanced on being able to substitute endless resources for skill.

    I played under PD standards that did not allow this and completed all the harder stuff this game can throw at us during those time frames. My permadeath toons do have epic gear that was earned pre U14. In fact, one of them has epic gear that was earned previous to the caster revamp. Pre U14 epics werent tough. They were roughly the difficulty epic hard is right now. Teams of permadeathers were completing those regularly for years now.

    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    As to your second point, haste clickies are less efficient than the haste spell as they only last 30 seconds (unless you have epic or GS haste clickies), and even then the AoE damage is still the largest reason for the leveling speed of a caster. A melee just doesn't have as easy a time zerging, as they can't quite just run until red alert then dropping an AoE DoT spell. Casters do have a clear advantage at leveling to epic levels...but once you get to the epic levels, melees can start to catch up a good bit (not to say they ever do, but I'd say melee and casters with ED are closer than they have been in the >3 years I've been playing).
    But you wont come out and tell him his claim is so far off the mark its hillarious. Instead you tell all this stuff to me. Youre preaching to the choir dude. He stated there was no power disparity between melee and caster. I challenged him to prove it. Note the crickets chirping in his corner? Yeap. bAngo .

    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    In conclusion, if you hide behind the mask of online anonymity, where most people don't know even one of your toons, don't be surprised if no one believes you. The smart person would never believe anyone on the internet without some sort of proof, anyways...adding in that it's someone wearing a mask, it makes it worse. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong: I'm saying, between your conduct, claims, and anonymity, I have a really hard time believing anything you've claimed in 99% of these forums, especially when it's things to the effect of never having used a pot on an arcane.
    The whole online anonymity thing got old in 2008. The people that I want to know my toons know my toons. Theres quite a few who do. The rest of the bitter forumites who love to grief those who disagree with them to the point where they have no intelligent answer for it do not get to do so. Ive had this happen twice now by people in the known chai fanclub, who will AUTOMATICALLY disagree based on the fact that the name next to the post is chai. Kinda like when someone completely understands that the guy who made the claim that casters arent so far ahead of melee in power is completely incirrect, but because its chai who pulled his card on that anyhow, you have to automatically disagree and somehow find a way to stick up for him, even though you know full well thats a foolish claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    I dare-say, as someone who enjoys both this game and pugging, any change that makes fewer people interested in playing most definitely affects me. There are people who enjoy using SP pots just because they love nuking things, and there are people who use SP pots to help flatten the learning curve for healers and other casters at high levels. Especially in the case of healers, anything that makes learning to be a good healer that much harder negatively impacts most of the game. The community for this game is small enough, iirc, that a few bad hits can do a good bit of damage to it. People like the OP seem to want only the best players to keep playing...I like the game too much to see less and less funding come in to keep it running.
    Any change that makes fewer people interested in playing most definitely affects you? Good. Then we should be agreeing right here that endless mana pots are bad for the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    As a side-note, to the people who say this would relieve stress for new healers....most groups will blame the healers for their failures anyways, something that increases failure rates for content that people are already used to beating (and therefore causing even more stress and blame for the healers) will make a lot of learning healers decide to not be a healer anymore, or possibly not to play anymore (bad experiences with pugging Wruntjunior in the end-game on her first life as a FvS actually almost made me delete the character...and have helped in the long run with my decision to go arcane rather than divine). Remember that if you try to raise the game to a high level of difficulty, a lot of people and their money will get left behind. Losses like that are something that would permanently hurt DDO.
    Versus what? The situation we have now where everyone expects new healers to pay for them to win? You fully support this but you are outlining right here how you avoided it comopletely by TRing your healer into an arcane.

    As far as raising this game to a high level of difficulty? This game is at its LOWEST point of difficulty it has EVER seen. This is why attrition rate in the most experienced players is higher than normal right now. Turbine can no longer develop content at the same rate this game can be handedly beaten in. Why? Because of easy buttons like mana potions.

    No, I dont want the game to be highly difficult for all. I want the game to have an actual learning curve. Trust me when I say that if I -EVER- see you complaining about the lack of skill in PUGs, or if you ever get ticked off at someone leading the group who wants the healer to bail the group or raid out with endless pay to win mana potions, ima pull your card on that right quick and remind you of your stance in this thread. Hilarity will ensue, and the film will commence at 11 on the same night. I will also remind you this has been happening more often as of late, with people doing complete 180s on their stances from a few years ago on P2W mechanics.
    Last edited by Chai; 11-17-2012 at 03:59 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  10. #310
    Community Member pHo3nix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Im actually perfectly fine with the fact that people are different than me. This isnt about people changing however, this is about the game changing, and P2W games, and what my observation about them in the MMO world tells me.

    Im perfectly OK with a game starting out as a P2W game and staying a P2W game, because if I dont like it I just wont play it. but if the game I played for 6 years starts to become P2W after 3 years, and by year 5-6 they have most of the players weened onto the P2W teet to the point where they will come to the forums in droves and support more of it, you can see why someone with alot of time invested in what this game USED TO BE, doesnt support it.
    I don't always agree with you, but this time i had to +1
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xezrak View Post
    +1 Excellent point,

    When I started looking for a new MMO one of the things that drew me to DDO was the lack of Pay to win and the lack of grind, unfortunately the game is heading towards more of both.

    Also unfortunately as I mentioned previously the ability for arcanes to keep chugging pots does make them relatively OP, which in turn will potentially result in more nerfs to casters. Also it will encourage more raids such as CitW which will then result in chugging pots to become the norm. Which in my opinion discourages players from playing healers, especially outside their guilds.

    Unfortunately sp pots are already a cash cow, I really don't see the change the OP is asking for being implemented.
    Unless they changed it, CiTW is the less SP intensive quest in the game. You can summon shrines at will for a minimal penalty. Don't pot. Summon a shrine. You lose 1 chest. You still get 5. Heck, you can even re-enter it, unlike a lot of old raids. So, unless you are after the exp (and there are much faster ways to get that), exit, fill sp, re-enter.

  12. #312
    Community Member gallantian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pHo3nix View Post
    In all kind of games and sports you are supposed to play at the best of your possibilities if you want to win, you are not supposed to limit yourself to get some challenge..when you play chess you do not disable half of your brain if the other player sucks,
    If we played chess and you gave me 40 bucks, I would let you buy your queen back, even throw in a rook, well, maybe a bishop, 50 for a queen and rook.

  13. #313
    Community Member Masterspud's Avatar
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    Not being an uber gamer, I have yet to have a toon reach epic levels, please tell me the whine in this thread is not by epic players, because it has certianly attained an epic level.

    Fall back to casual and relax.
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  14. #314
    The Hatchery vVvAiaynAvVv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post


    Im perfectly OK with a game starting out as a P2W game and staying a P2W game, because if I dont like it I just wont play it. but if the game I played for 6 years starts to become P2W after 3 years, and by year 5-6 they have most of the players weened onto the P2W teet to the point where they will come to the forums in droves and support more of it, you can see why someone with alot of time invested in what this game USED TO BE, doesnt support it.
    If the game was as it USED TO BE......this game would not even be anymore.

    I think Turbine always had this in mind honestly as soon as they started the F2P thing...but they had to tell old timers something so they would not leave.

    Scratt for president!!!!

  15. #315
    The Hatchery vVvAiaynAvVv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xezrak View Post

    Unfortunately sp pots are already a cash cow, I really don't see the change the OP is asking for being implemented.
    Or worse....the store ones won't and the in-game ones will...which totally defeats the purpose of keeping it play to win instead of pay to win.

    Scratt for president!!!!

  16. #316
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xezrak View Post
    +1 Excellent point,

    When I started looking for a new MMO one of the things that drew me to DDO was the lack of Pay to win and the lack of grind, unfortunately the game is heading towards more of both.

    Also unfortunately as I mentioned previously the ability for arcanes to keep chugging pots does make them relatively OP, which in turn will potentially result in more nerfs to casters. Also it will encourage more raids such as CitW which will then result in chugging pots to become the norm. Which in my opinion discourages players from playing healers, especially outside their guilds.

    Unfortunately sp pots are already a cash cow, I really don't see the change the OP is asking for being implemented.
    Yeap, exactly.

    We were talking to a dev about a year ago regasrding how casters outdamage everyone else in a sustained fashion, and they replied that this is balanced due to their limitations on a mana pool, which doesnt make it sustained. We all LOLed and pointed out the obvious easy button that circumvents that limitation.

    Even WruntJunior, the guy who disagreed with me on this (which prompted the response you quoted) typed up a nifty little paragraph about how he TRed his healer into an arcane so he didnt have to deal with peoples expectations that he guzzles them to victory or else they blame him. Yet he is in SUPPORT of endless mana potions. That expectation will never go away in the current state of the game.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  17. #317
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vVvAiaynAvVv View Post
    If the game was as it USED TO BE......this game would not even be anymore.
    This is incorrect. If this game wasnt pay to win it would still be here. It could be everything else it still is right now minus P2W and still easily survive.

    Quote Originally Posted by vVvAiaynAvVv View Post
    I think Turbine always had this in mind honestly as soon as they started the F2P thing...but they had to tell old timers something so they would not leave. [/COLOR]
    I think Turbine does most things right, but that doesnt make P2W correct.

    And P2W =/= F2P. Having a microtransaction store is completely different than having the ability to pay to circumvent game balance in the store. I do believe F2P saved the game. I think P2W is alienating players by making it too easy to the point where Turbine cannot release content as quickly as people can get bored with the old content.
    Last edited by Chai; 11-17-2012 at 04:12 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  18. #318

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    This is incorrect. If this game wasnt pay to win it would still be here. It could be everything else it still is right now minus P2W and still easily survive. <snip>
    Her statement is true, is far as I can tell. If they hadn't made changes, then the game would be gone. Now, your statement might also be true (the two are not mutually exclusive). Do you have any evidence to justify your claim? Something along the lines of how much revenue they bring in from various sources verses their expenses?

  19. #319
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisdinus7 View Post
    Her statement is true, is far as I can tell. If they hadn't made changes, then the game would be gone. Now, your statement might also be true (the two are not mutually exclusive). Do you have any evidence to justify your claim? Something along the lines of how much revenue they bring in from various sources verses their expenses?
    none of us have access to such information. only Turbine knows.

    its hard to say if DDO would have still survived and going strong to this day if p2w wasnt a wallet step away, but i think it would. i wouldnt be thinking seriously about leaving the game due to the direction of p2w over the past few years if we didnt already have it.

    i stayed because i played pnp as a kid, i like the combat, the different ways we can build our characters, the quests, the game continuing to grow and the lore. the biggest reason is because of good old fashioned fun. earning everything and building my characters better than they were. the thrill of adventure and treasure seeking. playing different types of classes and races. feeling like a hero at the end of each quest and over coming difficult challenges with monsters and near party wipes.

    it sounds geeky i know, but didnt we all at one point feel like that in the beginning? when and why did it stop feeling like that? the way i see it for me, the answer lies in this post i just typed.

  20. #320
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisdinus7 View Post
    Her statement is true, is far as I can tell. If they hadn't made changes, then the game would be gone. Now, your statement might also be true (the two are not mutually exclusive). Do you have any evidence to justify your claim? Something along the lines of how much revenue they bring in from various sources verses their expenses?
    Its F2P that saved this game 3 years ago. We didnt have P2W at that time yet. If you review my posting history from that time youll see that I supported F2P.

    Now plaease quote everyone else making claims like "a cooldown on mana pots would make people leave the game" and demand evidence from them as well.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

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