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  1. #221
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hordo View Post
    Ok, Norg, you know I love you, but this is one suggestion I cannot even see a need for. Granted, I've only done CITW twice on my cleric but used only 2 mana pots in there. I had expected much more after hearing the "sky is falling" previews, but only 2 used and we had 1 other healer and a bard.

    Perhaps, it has changed since I last ran it (it was just after U15 dropped) as I've been TRing/levelling lately. I remember the hubbub with eLoB back in the day...still not chugged more than 5 in there.

    And don't even try they "you have to be alive to drink mana pots" as you, and most of the smart-alecs who would normally be very correct well know that I actually don't suck on my Cleric and am a fair to decent healer. I just don't see how putting a timer on a mana pot would do anything but discourage the inexperienced end-game healer. Let them have the emergency parachute the mana pots represent since no experienced cleric is going to need more than just a few in all but the most obvious-train-wreck-PUGs.

    tl;dr
    Don't presume to tell me how to play my toon and I will give you the same courtesy.
    Mana pots were never a good thing. They were initially implemented way back when because the 1400 spell point casters without free SLAs had run out of spell points and had nothing else better to do. They have since taken on a life of their own. The devs should have corrected this a long time ago. Turbine has kept this going because they can make money on it.

    As a friend has recently said to me DDO is still fun but less fun because it has become too easy. There are many people that have left DDO because well it is pretty darn trivial and has become such less fun to them that they play something else. The death penalty was changed 3 or so years into DDO so there is definitely precendence for this. We players have a voice into how we want DDO to be configured and how we want it to be going forward.

    The death penalty change of 3+ years ago gives me hope that the devs will listen and improve DDO. As Madfloyd says NO Challenge NO Fun. Post here and post them loudly - the devs will listen to reason..
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  2. #222
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GermanicusMaximus View Post
    The fundamental rule of this game is that most people are lazy. That's why we have such a tremendous glut of melee toons, even though you can hardly make it through a single page of forums threads without some whiny "OMG, casters need to be nerfed! Think of the melee!" thread.

    If melee were indeed hard to play and under powered, you'd see as many melee toons in this game as you do bards. Instead, what happens is every bad player rolls a melee toon, and when it turns out to be a steaming pile of dung, he gets on the forum and crafts the Melee Whine of the Day.

    If casters were indeed grossly overpowered, minimal effort toons, all the people who lack the game skill to play even a melee toon would be on the forums talking about what boy boy casters they are.

    All of this "buff the melee, nerf the caster" ranting might be acceptable, if melee players would at least contribute enough coin to make DDO viable. Instead, Turbine is laying people off because the game the melee whiners talked the devs into creating can't generate enough revenue to keep people employed.

    No matter how you slice it, the "poor little melee" agenda is a complete failure. More responsible people would be smart enough to bury it and move on. The fact that it lives on forever says a lot about the player community that Turbine has crafted for itself. Sometimes, you get exactly what you deserve.
    Lets have a race shall we.

    We will start on the same day at the same time and play for equal amounts of hours per day. I will play the caster and you play the melee. Lets see who levels their toon to 20 first.

    Rules. Must solo and must play on elite. Cant play underlevel quests.

    You think melee and casters are on par powerwise? Put your money where your mouth is. Lets rock.

    Oh, and congrats on shoe horning your little bugbear about melee players into yet another thread that has nothing to do with said topic. As if every player only plays melee or only plays casters. Lulz.
    Last edited by Chai; 11-16-2012 at 07:21 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  3. #223
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Lets have a race shall we.

    We will start on the same day at the same time and play for equal amounts of hours per day. I will play the caster and you play the melee. Lets see who levels their toon to 20 first.

    Rules. Must solo and must play on elite. Cant play underlevel quests.

    You think melee and casters are on par powerwise? Put your money where your mouth is. Lets rock.

    Oh, and congrats on shoe horning your little bugbear about melee players into yet another thread that has nothing to do with said topic. As if every player only plays melee or only plays casters. Lulz.
    That sounds great. You can't drink 1 pot. Good luck.

  4. #224
    Community Member legendlore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    I'm sorry, I acquire rest shrines (sometimes multiples) in nearly EVERY quest, including multiple raids. The ones from the store, strangely, can't be used in raids, but the ones found in game can. >_>
    read what you quote, pay special attention to the word purchase its seems like you missed it

    Quote Originally Posted by legendlore View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerren View Post
    Sorry but all characters can purchase an easy button, its called rest shrines and you can buy them at the store too. I don't agree with it but you can!
    Rest shrines can't be used in raids or while you are in combat (so they already have built in limiters, but pots don't), they also aren't acquired frequently in game.
    The Tarcane Death knight; a solo friendly plate wearing (0% spell failure) arcane knight.

  5. #225
    Community Member Rodasch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pHo3nix View Post
    Not to burst your bubble, but sp pots are influencing everyone's gameplay.

    Have you ever played a game where ammo were a limiting factor? Well, sp pots are like infinite ammo cheat: if they design content balanced on limited sp then those who got infinite sp will find the game too easy and boring; if they design content balanced on unlimited sp then those who got finite sp will find the game impossible.
    If they find it "too easy and boring" they can stop relying on mana pots and try to actually play with some measure of strategy and skill instead. You've still failed to point out any way in which sp pots are influencing anyone's game play other than the folks who choose to use them...and your example there shows only that the use itself will self-regulate when it becomes "bad" for them...unless they're too stupid to stop stabbing themselves in the eye when it hurts...in which case it's not your or my job to protect them from themselves.

    Stop worrying about stuff that doesn't matter, you're going to drive yourself crazy. Focus on your own game play and the play of groups you're involved with...everyone else is IRRELEVENT to your play, honestly. They're in private instances, not stealing any monsters from you, not stealing any experience from you, not stealing any loot from you, and definitely not keeping you from doing your own thing...so return the favor and leave them alone.
    Ghallanda Server: Rodasch - Pale Master, Niccolina - Assassin, Mahlak - Radiant Servant, Etayn - Monster, Brikbaht - Tukaw, Khawstik - Pale Master
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  6. #226
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GermanicusMaximus View Post
    The fundamental rule of this game is that most people are lazy.
    I think the fundamental rule of this game is that people want to have fun while playing it.


    It always irks me when people suggest that X gets removed or that Y gets nerfed because they don't like it. Most of the time, there is a very simple solution to their perceived problem that won't affect anyone else.


    In the case of this thread, for anyone who thinks SP pots are easy buttons, they don't have to use them. If their version of fun is to play without SP pots, good for them.



    I have heard lots of people complaining about SP pots and how they are an "easy button" but I have never once, not once, not even a single time, through some sixty-four levels as a cleric, ever heard someone complain after I drank a pot to keep them healed so we could finish a tough quest or raid.
    All on Thelanis: Archenpaul Sixblade, Archernicus Thornwood, Gregorovic Redcloak, Hermanius Brightblade, Jaklomeo Evermug, Jonathraxius Kane, and Praetoreus Silvershield.

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  7. #227
    Uber Uber Completionist
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    Not signed.

    If people want to chug their way through content that's up to them. It doesn't diminish our achievement by not doing the same.

    I have no problem with people buying store pots and have no problem with buying them if I feel like it. Anyone compulsively buying them and chugging them is helping to fund the game that we enjoy. Their choice.

  8. #228
    Community Member tralfaz81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonos View Post
    Just limited by the blue bar... just. Why do people in this thread keep referring to melee timers? THERE IS NO TIMER ON WHACKING OR PUNCHING THINGS! How often do I sit and refresh clickies on my Monk? Not a whole hell of a lot, so please stop saying an orange is an apple folks. There are some, albeit weak, arguments that are far more reasonable than comparing a blue bar to melee clickies.

    Sorry, had to get that out there.
    Don't play monks so I don't know if the have an equivalent of a rangers Many Shots, a barbs damage boost or damage reduction, a fighters attack boost, or the dozen other clickies for various melees. But that's where our real damage comes in. Yes, we do alot of damage normally, but the big numbers normally come from clickies and enhancements. Those are our big guns and they only last for 20 seconds, 5 times a rest, and with a long cool down.
    "Shut up and die like a wizard"

  9. #229
    Community Member DrunkenBuddha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunga View Post
    That sounds great. You can't drink 1 pot. Good luck.
    Hahaha. Well played
    Originally Posted by Eladrin
    I often word things in ways that cause the most speculation and panic, because I'm capricious and mean.
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  10. #230
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by legendlore View Post
    read what you quote, pay special attention to the word purchase its seems like you missed it
    I think you missed the humor of my post...and the point that it's something you can still get a lot of in-game (including apparently infinite in CitW).

    In all honesty, though...if people want DDO to be closer to P&P, you should be able to rest anywhere, without any shrine requirement (especially at high levels, when a caster can make an essentially impenetrable fortress in which you can rest). I personally don't care for pots myself, and heavily limit my use of them (unless I did something stupid, I won't drink more than one or two in anything...and rarely that many - in fact, I don't keep more than 5-10 on my character at once...for example, in mostly soloing and pugging to cap as I have been doing this past week on Wruntjunior, I've used two pots, both due to my own stupidity); however, the people who would suffer most from a timer being added to pots are healers trying to learn new raids, or epic elites, or the like...especially in pugs. I've said it before (and, from my experience, been right): anything that makes it harder to play a healer at all will make any pugs that need a healer suffer, as healers will either not want to play healers or, if they still play as healers, not be as likely to play healers in groups.

    The whole argument is moot anyways - as long as SP pots are a big seller in the DDO store, Turbine is not going to do anything to hurt those sales. The players who depend upon pots (most of us were there once, including myself) will eventually learn that they don't need pots, through learning SP management and getting SP recovery tools (like the torc), and I've yet to see any content need more than the occasional pot unless there's not yet a good low-to-no-pot method yet (for example, EE CitW, as there is very little reason to run it on that difficulty for most people compared to, say, EH). Eventually, outside of the few who use pots for fun (and I've seen those, but that's a playstyle choice...and a rare one at that, as it's really expensive), most people wind up only using pots for emergencies and achievements, and as few as possible for those two. Maybe the community within which I play is the exception rather than the rule, but I really don't see the issue of people chugging pots to beat any content as a valid concern.
    Last edited by WruntJunior; 11-16-2012 at 09:13 PM.
    Eternal Infinity: Wruntjunior ~ DI Sorc // Youngwrunt ~ Survivalist Paladin // Wruntarrow ~ Monkcher // Wruntsonmonk ~ Wis-Based Monk

  11. #231
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunga View Post
    That sounds great. You can't drink 1 pot. Good luck.
    Wouldnt need to. Never have before on an arcane.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  12. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Wouldnt need to. Never have before on an arcane.

  13. #233
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Wouldnt need to. Never have before on an arcane.
    I can't even make sense out of that. We are much different players.

  14. #234
    Hatchery Hero Sonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chai View Post
    wouldnt need to. Never have before on an arcane.

    >_> <_< >_>


    Well I think this concludes this round of "Its time to x". Thanks for playing.
    Last edited by Sonos; 11-16-2012 at 08:30 PM.

  15. #235
    Hero Gkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    It is just high time the devs did this. I would suggest a one minute timer before a player can drink another mana pot. I do not have any problem with failing more quests because quite frankly if I have to drink mana pots to beat a quest I do not deserve to beat the quest. Failing quests just makes the victories that much more sweet and encourages higher quality game play. There are no mana pots in D&D.

    This game is too easy. 4 or 5 years ago DDO was so much more difficult. If you the devs are opposed to this on the normal or hard difficulties at least consider it for the elite difficulty. Thanks for striving to improve the game play.
    Or, you could just not use sp pots if you are too awesome for them.

    That sure is a lot easier than telling other people how they are allowed to play

  16. #236
    Community Member legendlore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    I think you missed the humor of my post...and the point that it's something you can still get a lot of in-game (including apparently infinite in CitW).
    Still don't see it to be honest, humor tends to not translate that well in written form with no emotes, I do however tend to interpret CAPS as SHOUTING and a bit rude.

    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    In all honesty, though...if people want DDO to be closer to P&P, you should be able to rest anywhere, without any shrine requirement
    Anywhere within the DM:s limits, this of course meant different things for different people. My experience was as a general rule one rest per 24h. Ddo also doesn't have many time limiters, in pnp there's often a limited time for something to be achieved and sleeping instead of working towards them is likely not getting many results. Napping 2 times a day (16h) and adventuring 8h a day doesn't make many great heroes.
    The Tarcane Death knight; a solo friendly plate wearing (0% spell failure) arcane knight.

  17. #237
    Hero NancyD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    This right here....

    ...Is you literally agreeing with me, even while attempting to disagree with me. Their expectation is that your healer will have a ton of mana pots in store so you can bail them out of whatever sheist storm they cause. If you actually pander to that, you are actually helping them NOT LEARN how to play. Its not their potions they waste in the process, its yours - even better for them eh?
    Hmm, well-reasoned. You sir are a worthy opponent.

    I guess, as to your point that it rarely hapoens that someone uses them as a bridge to learning and weens off, well, I think people can/do just that. I have seen it with others and also, well, I did some of that..... But as to that being the norm, hmmmm.... I like to run with people who are always learning and experimenting, and that might not be representative. Sigh, I miss wowo. But on the statistical view, you are probably right.
    Last edited by NancyD; 11-16-2012 at 08:53 PM.
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  18. #238
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by legendlore View Post
    Still don't see it to be honest, humor tends to not translate that well in written form with no emotes, I do however tend to interpret CAPS as SHOUTING and a bit rude.
    Yeah, my humor doesn't always translate to typing, sadly. Suffice to say that my original post was almost entirely in jest.

    Quote Originally Posted by legendlore View Post
    Anywhere within the DM:s limits, this of course meant different things for different people. My experience was as a general rule one rest per 24h. Ddo also doesn't have many time limiters, in pnp there's often a limited time for something to be achieved and sleeping instead of working towards them is likely not getting many results. Napping 2 times a day (16h) and adventuring 8h a day doesn't make many great heroes.
    Even with that, especially at high levels (nevermind epic levels, as at that point, epic items could circumvent these issues), there are methods for circumventing restrictions. By the rules, you could get away with a lot - though most DMs would be smart enough to not let you simply trample the rules.

    Then again, in P&P, a wand of fireball was a powerful weapon, whereas in DDO it's mainly used for lighting torches. For this reason, even a wizard with all spell slots used up could still be a very valuable contributor to a party, which isn't that true of a wizard in DDO that's out of SP (though echoes does help). Furthermore, in P&P, you often didn't fight several hundred enemies in an adventure, so even though spells and all were limited, it wasn't often as much of an issue.
    Last edited by WruntJunior; 11-16-2012 at 08:53 PM.
    Eternal Infinity: Wruntjunior ~ DI Sorc // Youngwrunt ~ Survivalist Paladin // Wruntarrow ~ Monkcher // Wruntsonmonk ~ Wis-Based Monk

  19. #239
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post

    The death penalty change of 3+ years ago gives me hope that the devs will listen and improve DDO. As Madfloyd says NO Challenge NO Fun. Post here and post them loudly - the devs will listen to reason..
    Forgot about players wanting the DP back?

    For the DEVs to listen, first, the request has to be actually reasonable. I have not seen a reasonable idea posted by you recently.

    Keep at it though.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  20. #240
    Community Member tralfaz81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    I've said it before (and, from my experience, been right): anything that makes it harder to play a healer at all will make any pugs that need a healer suffer, as healers will either not want to play healers or, if they still play as healers, not be as like to play healers.
    I'll be honest, I didn't even think about that. I agree 100%. Cut the divines any break you can.
    "Shut up and die like a wizard"

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