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  1. #21
    Community Member Hawkwier's Avatar
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    Jul 2010

    Question okaaaaaay.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    ...You need to understand that I am speaking from a great deal of experience... first.

    Until I recall the nonsense you've spouted before, maybe...

    As for your classification for offensive Vs defensive - fine if it works in your head, but not for me.

    Take a pre-cast haste as an example - For you, precast=defensive, compared to "offensive" healing amp?

    For me, something that helps me hit stuff faster, increasing DPS or other harm to my opponent, is what I tend to call offensive (e.g. a pre-cast haste), Vs, say, something defensive that instead helps keep me alive by someone having to hit me a bit more to kill me to get my red-bar down (say from getting more HP from a heal by virtue of having some HA so my red-bar is that bit higher).

    In summary:
    hurts thier red-bar = offensive
    helps my red-bar = defensive
    and a few things can do both (Yay!)

    As the meerkats on TV ads here say: SIMPLES!

    Maybe just my lack of experience, but I've yet to kill a mob using HA alone - even a kobold - take it you've had more luck?

    I think your flawed definition there may in-turn have resulted in your flawed initial list, and the resulting neccesity to come back on and explain your logic at length now, and maybe even to feel you ought to add in that "experience" quote too? (LOL!)

    Trouble is now you've explained it, it still doesnt make a whole load of sense.

    But then - waddiaino - I'm jus a dum barb wot likes hitin fings til dey stop movin no moar, den mebbe's agen, jus coz (not wi ma heelin amp do)...

  2. #22
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Jun 2010
    Staffs, England


    Quote Originally Posted by Soul_Power View Post
    I wasn't trying to give the impression that maxing con was a good idea and will give you a balanced character, quite the opposite actually. My point was that con is the only ability you can max and not have hp issues with a 28 point build unless you are like a Wizard with only int and con (which is why I said "generally" in the first place).

    As far as taking toughness at level 1, yeah I know it's not necessary. Low levels are a cakewalk anyway, no feat is really necessary at such low levels. Believe me though, +10 hp at level 1 means a LOT more than +20 hp at level 20. That is my mentality towards taking toughness first. It's still easy enough to stomp low level quests on elite without it.
    And my point is that Maxing Con gives you issues elsewhere EVEN on a Barb!

    You get 4HP from Toughness at lvl 1!
    The 10 is from Racial Toughness {I believe Class Tougnesses come in at Lvl 2}.
    So a Max of 14 extra HP {Which is great I agree but completely unneeded}.
    PLUS: I agree with you about 20 {23} HP at Lvl 20 being nothing BUT apart from the fact that you're actually looking at 63 {with Enhancements} I was advocating taking Toughness at Lvl 9!
    At Lvl 9 Toughness + 2 Enhancements {1ap each} = 32 Extra HP - Add the other two possible Toughness Enhancements and you've got 52!

    SO: That Lvl 8 Character you've just had a go at for having too few HP suddenly goes past your total upon levelling up!
    If he then goes over to Relic of a Sovereign Past {f2p - don't even have to finish the quest so can farm on Casual}. he can grab the Nightforge Bracers {Imp False Life and 3 Charges of Heroism} Plus the Nightforge Gorget {Necklace with Heavy Fort} too.

    Never have a go at anyone's HP if they're below Lvl 9 - For each level after that remember that they may just not have found the right gear yet so give them a 50pt buffer below your minimum standard!

    In fact: Going back to when Shroud Groups regularly insisted on 300HP for Normal {More like 400 now} I saw plenty of 250HP toons survive just fine!
    Every update min HP requirements in LFMs seem to go up these days!

  3. #23
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    Apr 2009

    Default High hp lets you play more aggresively and be more effective

    If you have more hp you can play like how strong players play --- aggresively. 500 to 600 hp casters have more options. The optimal use of wail is in the center of a lot mobs and at the very start ofa fight. To do this casters have to have high hp and charge and jump to the center of a fight. Same with cone of cold gather and spin technique.

    For melees the most effective attack is the cleeave and greatcleave . Again its more effective when in the middle of mobs. Also why do rangers kite so often and annoy people around them--low hp.

    Ive seenlow hp casters and they have to stay in the back and are much less effective. HP affects how you play.

    HP also lets healers be more efficient. Ifyou can be oneshotted you are useless. If it takes 2 hits then either you or the healer have to. to heal you constantly. If ut takes 4 or more hits to take you down then its easier for the healwr to use group heals.

    Low hp is poor character design, selfish, not fun, wasteful of resources and just gives a giant beacon overyour head that you will not pull your weight.
    Last edited by heavenandhell; 11-16-2012 at 04:07 PM.

  4. #24
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Nov 2006


    While some of the items listed are good, the post lacks "Why" and "When" they should expect access to such items

    Con (starting stat): The old cliché “Con is not a dump stat” is very apt. Try not to start with less than 14 no matter what class you are.

    Constitution is used to determine your HP bonus above what you would get for your class. d4 Classes will generally have fewer HP than their d8 Counter parts, however, HP are a buffer from Death. Constitution helps make this buffer larger. On Caster type, including Monks where Concentration benefits the ability to cast while under fire, or maintain Ki longer it is also important.

    Example: Comparing Apples to Apples for the same Class: an 8 Con Character will be -1 HP Per Level Behind a 10 Con Character, and -3 HP Per Level Behind a 14 Con Character. At Level 1 this will not be a big deal, however at level 20 that gap spreads to 60 HP.

    Con Items: Get a ring or belt etc with as high a Con as possible
    Constitution Items are good, and it is a good idea to have the most level appropriate version, but at low levels it is not as much of a gain as it is at higher levels. At lower levels False Life Items generally provide more HP than a +1/+2 Constitution Item, having both is best, but if only one can be used use the one that will provide you with the most HP.

    Con Tomes: Get one, even a plus 2 is good and not too expensive on the AH
    Tomes are a good thing to shoot for, however they are not mandatory to enjoy the game. It is not until level 7 that you can enjoy the benefit of a +2 Tome, or 11 for the +3 or 14 for the +4. Tomes are extra power and great ways to shore up a weakness. But in your questing you will run across these items so I would not put stress on these. If you do have plat burning a hole in your coin purse these are good investments.

    Con: Ship buff
    Again it is a stacking bonus above all other bonuses, that is only limited by the Guild Level and availability. At lower levels the Constitution buff is marginally beneficial. But at Level 20 equals 20 HP.

    False Life: Always wear an item with the biggest False Life on it you can
    Not only is this a good idea, at lower levels even Lesser False life is more HP than what Constitution bonuses can bring. I would also add, that it is a good idea to also use the Temporary Spells when applicable (Wand/Potions) of False Life and Aid - While these are only Temporary HP, they increase your HP Buffer just prior to combat. It means up to 20 HP you can lose before you have to worry about losing real HP. 20 HP at the lower levels is a good help to survival.

    Toughness Feat: Fit it in your build, somehow.
    While generally this is a good feat as it means 22 HP minimum at Level 20. Its real value is with the Enhancements - All races have a minimum of 2, some have 3 and some 4, not all classes offer class enhancements which can be from 2 to 4 more as well for the price of action points. That's 20 to 80 more HP above what the toughness feat offers on its own. However, I will point this out as an expert tip only Not all builds benefit equally and play style can prove that this feat is not as useful as others. Bottom line is that depending on race and class as well as play style is 42 to as much as 102 HP at Level 20 worth the investment for HP buffer - For general melee classes it is, for specialty classes builds it needs to be weighed - when in doubt lean towards more HP as you can always adjust as necessary.

    Toughness Action points: A no brainer once you have the feat
    See above...

    Toughness Item: Get the Minos Helm from The Orchard as soon as you can handle it, also has heavy fort on it.
    This is a stacking 20 HP above false life items good item to have as it stacks with all other sources of HP

    Guild Crystals: Look out for/buy an item with a guild slot and put a health gem in it. (House K for the crystals and by the bank in the Market Place to put it in)
    When a member of a Guild watch for items that have guild augment slots - these slots can add a mired of 6 hour enhancements. Each size has a different Minimum level requirement. These Guild Buffs again stack with all other buffs.

    Spells: If you are a class that can cast rage do it as much as possible
    Spells like rage increase your Constitution, this is good for a boost, more beneficial at higher levels. However rage also increases your strength and will save. This is just as useful at lower levels as it is at higher levels as its benefit is the same.

    Green Steel: Get flagged and do the shroud as soon as possible and make a cheap HP item.
    Once you have flagged for the Shroud Raid and possibly started to gain ingredients in other quests. A greensteel item can be made that has up to 45 Additional HP. However, it may take some time to farm out the ingredients for all three tiers. Go for the 1st 2 tiers and add 3rd when you can. Alternate items do exist that contain these same enhancements, most of these are in the Minimum level 18+ range. Greensteel is also a good item for TR purposes as its minimum level 11 for a wearable item, and 12 for weapons.

  5. #25
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    Nov 2009


    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    My sorceror's hit points jumped from ~260 to ~424 since the MotU expansion. I do not die less than before the expansion. Due to various game changes, bugs, and high level gameplay in general, I seem to actually die a bit more than I used to.
    Then you might have been kind of person the OP was talking about. If your sorc had 260 hp at cap, then I don't know what to suggest. If you claim to die very infrequently, then I can only reason you were either a very inefficient character or didn't play on the hardest difficulties. Even current elites starting at level 14 or so have spots where you could be disabled and hit for 200 damage in the span of a few seconds. Not to mention disintegrates and the like.

    Yes, you could have survived old epics with 100 hp, if you sat in the back, never went through a trap that wasn't disarmed, had superior jumping and avoiding skills, no lag, never played with any bad players, stayed out of melee, never had the group run by mobs and never seemed to get hit with random aggro or spell damage.

    More hit points, gives you more flexibility. Easiest epic Chronos I've been in? They were tanked by a sorc. Crazy fast quest completions? A caster is always running in front. Don't want to wait 10 minutes or buy a rogue hireling for the upcoming traps? Run through them.

  6. #26
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    Apr 2009


    260 hp is pitiful hp at level 20. Disregard any advice that comes from any person who. thinks otherwise. My healers have over 550 hp at 20. Damage happens and being dead is notfun.

  7. #27
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    Sep 2012


    I'm totally new still, but wanted to echo what has been said about not getting hit at all being FAR better than getting hit. My human 12/2 wiz/rog Palemaster started with 18 Con and 18 Int (32 point build). I did take toughness also, and wear a +6 health item right now too, and Palemaster adds a few more hp also. So its not like I'm ignoring HP.

    But my AC in my robes is pathetic. Under normal circumstances a rat could chew me up quickly. Despite this, in most of my groups with friends' druids and true melee characters, I'm sometimes the last one standing despite charging right into the fray. This is because of Wraith Form Incorporeal + Displacement + Evasion/Insightful Reflexes + 100% fortification (in form) + Negative Energy Blast and Death Auras. My friends bring Cleric hirelings along and still sometimes die faster than their cleric can keep them alive. I'm not trying to brag. I still make mistakes (like forgetting to cast Displacement/Greater Heroism, etc) a lot, but I'm truly amazed how survivable I am as a "Wizard".

    Just getting missed a lot, and then having high Evasion saves, and 100 fortification to boot, + access to all the energy resistance that I'd like, seems MUCH more valuable than being a sack of HP (which I do not deny is also important. Thank you OP.)

  8. #28
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    Mar 2010
    I'm just outside that door to your left.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    I have seen no evidence of this. Once ran with a 950 hp barbarian (before MotU) that died about 3 times in Mired with Kobolds elite. No one else ever even came close to dying.

    In DDO, saves > evasion > movement speed > deathward/neg immunity > immunity to level drain > energy resistance/prot > deathblock > 75% miss chance > 50% miss chance > hit points ~= heavy fortification > DR, at least as far as death is concerned. Sure, someone with a small hit point container may need healing more often.

    Notice I said may. Small hit point containers provoke more careful gameplay in good and bad players alike.

    I know you are proud of your hit point total. It is fairly meaningless. My sorceror's hit points jumped from ~260 to ~424 since the MotU expansion. I do not die less than before the expansion. Due to various game changes, bugs, and high level gameplay in general, I seem to actually die a bit more than I used to.

    Seeing someone with a small amount of hit points probably just means they are low man on the grinding totem pole. They will die more often simply because of their inexperience. The proper way to keep them playing is to go out of your way to protect them from aggro, heal them before they fall into danger, and offer them equipment that is more suitable to their level if they don't already have it.

    The 7 hit points from toughness + 14 con (vs. 8 con and no toughness) at level 1 to 103 hit points at level 25 is not the difference-maker you want it to be. Letting someone on your ship for 30 resists at low level will have a nearly infinitely larger impact on their survivability.
    Well theirs a reason for that. You ran with a barb lol. However I can say this. The pally, the monk, the goofey barb, the fighter, any melee build will have at least 800hp. AT LEAST. So I say this because it;s true. The healers going to be going off the tank, or best melee who will have probably 1k hp. (Because 800 to 1100 hp is the norm with ED's now.) If you have a huge gap between you, you will die, and then be deemed a waste of sp to raise.

    Now this is in a raid, any raid. If you don't raid don't want any of the loot from them, are a go getter and prefer to run your own groups then hey ya, sure the hell with hp.

    But don't be shocked, bewildered, or blindsided when you apply for some raid, or epic elite quest, maybe even epic hard with like 370 to 450hp and you find a ding just as fast following. Even with 14 base con on a low hp per level class, you can still get 600 to 700 hp easy without the use of an ED that gives out tons of HP, or more then 1 toughness. And I know because every alt of mine has the commonest of loot. Hell the best of loot now is the most common of loot lol.

  9. #29
    Community Member Persiflage's Avatar
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    Oct 2010

    Default I did the unthinkable...

    I've seen Toughness described as vital several times in this and many other threads, but I ditched the feat entirely on my Cleric when I LR'd him last time and you know what? It's fine. I'll break 600hp without it at L25 and that honestly is good enough on toon who never melees, with self-healing that strong. As Enoach points out, some builds and/or play-styles will reveal Toughness to not be as useful as, say, Epic Spell Pen.

    I also ditched it on my WF Arti when levelling until very late in the game and I'm thinking of taking it back out of the mix again on the grounds that there are probably much better things I could be doing with a feat on a ranged/caster toon than adding another 48hp (counting the first two enhancements). Again, I can get him well over 600hp without it.

    Note that I'm not in any way arguing with the OP's points here and there are plenty of builds where I absolutely wouldn't want to level them without Toughness... but I don't think it's necessarily a must-have. Would I do without it on my Monks? Hell, no. Would I do without it on my Wizard? Hmmm... just maybe, although of course the feat gives a higher percentage of total hp on a toon getting half as many hp per level as a Cleric. In an odd way, I kinda like the extra edginess of slightly lower hit-points; it encourages me to use cannier and more thoughtful tactics.

    On any toon I have, I am - provided the Lag Monster doesn't eat me - extremely unlikely to be the one who loses you the 10% no-deaths bonus XP, certain special circumstances aside. By and large, I just Don't Get Killed, which may well stem from the fact that I've never quite shifted my old-school D&D mentality where getting killed was a big deal. I really, really hate to die in a quest. I bring this up purely because if I'd found that ditching Toughness was making any significant difference to the rate at which I tend to meet my demise, I wouldn't do it... but on the toons I've experimented with so far, it just isn't hurting me noticeably.

    Quite the contrary, in fact; on spell-casting toons of any stripe, any sensible feat you replace Toughness with is likely to result in you killing things faster, which is - as others have pointed out - the Number One way of reducing your incoming damage in DDO

    I'm not knocking taking Toughness as a feat, nor am I even suggesting that anyone else ditch it, I'm just presenting an alternative viewpoint

    EDIT: On the grounds that I'm a terrible pedant, that nobody else has pointed it out, and that I truly believe that people ought to be corrected when they inadvertently choose completely the wrong word so they don't make the same mistake twice...

    Quote Originally Posted by Limey View Post
    Rather than simply mock them like some, I made this post to help them find ways of beefing up their poor emancipated pencil necked carcasses. My plan is to paste a link to this thread every time I meet one.
    "Emancipated" does not mean what I think you think it means [1]... I suspect that the word you intended was "emaciated"


    [1] Unless, of course, you're referring to a group of toons who have recently achieved some form of social or political equality, in which case this whole thread is waaaay deeper than I'd realised
    Last edited by Persiflage; 11-19-2012 at 09:51 AM.
    Crime in multi-storey car parks: it's wrong on so many levels.

  10. #30
    The Hatchery MRMechMan's Avatar
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    Sep 2010
    Shenzhen, China


    Lol, raithe, you crack me up man. Hit points DO matter. Spike damage in the form of 1s vs spells and traps, and melee EE mobs mean a second of lag or bad luck can mean several 100 points of incoming damage, even with great defences.

    Saves are nice. But everyone rolls a 1.
    CC is nice. But some mobs cannot be CCed.
    AC is nice. But it does little in the hardest content.
    Never having agro is nice. But that is a dreamworld.
    Displacement is nice. But some mobs have true seeing.
    Absorb gear is nice. But hard to slot all the time.
    PRR is nice. But without the hp to back it up, it is sort of pointless.
    Ditto for Dodge/incorporality.
    Self healing is nice. But if you are knocked down or stunned that high hp buffer gives you time to make sure you are above 0hp by the time that eternal 6s is up and your heal/recon goes off.
    High dps is nice. But high dps=lots of agro, and you can't avoid all damage.

    HP isn't everything, but if you aren't at a decent number, you WILL die more, particularly if you cannot self heal.

    At endgame for elite players, if you are FAR below the other melee in terms of hp (south of ~600), you will cost the healers additional sp to keep you up.

    At endgame for elite players, if you are a healer with low hp (below 500) you will die far more than if you had 600+.

    At endgame for elite players, casters have a bit more leeway but can make 500+ hp without sacrificing anything from their primary or secondary why not do it?

    If I was doing a tough EE or raid and a >600 hp melee, >500 hp divine or >450hp arcane hit the lfm, I would be mildly worried. Again, elite players who generally want to have good characters. For casual play it doesn't really matter. If you care about your character, it isn't hard to get to those benchmarks. I am not calling for barb past lives here. Just a mild investment.

    Sacrificing everything for hp is stupid. Ignoring it is equally stupid.

  11. #31
    The Hatchery MRMechMan's Avatar
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    Sep 2010
    Shenzhen, China


    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    My sorceror's hit points jumped from ~260 to ~424 since the MotU expansion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    I do not die less than before the expansion.
    Sorry to hear that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Due to various game changes, bugs, and high level gameplay in general, I seem to actually die a bit more than I used to.
    Yea, that couldn't be because you are running different content, could it? If you had 260 still, would you die an equal amount of times to when you have 424? Same content, everything constant. Think carefully, now...

    Building for decent hp (neither 260 nor 424 are really...decent) is not exclusive of anything else a caster, divine or melee can do. It isn't building for party role or can quite easily do both.

  12. #32
    Community Member grayham's Avatar
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    Dec 2009


    I made this thread to new help players get more HP. It may compliment some of what's on offer here.

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