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  1. #1
    Community Member Limey's Avatar
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    Default Hit Points and You

    After a couple of weeks of pugging after a recent TR I’ve noticed there seem to be quite a few (presumably new) players who have seriously low hit points for their level.

    Rather than simply mock them like some, I made this post to help them find ways of beefing up their poor emancipated pencil necked carcasses. My plan is to paste a link to this thread every time I meet one.

    Most deaths are caused by running out of hit points so do these:

    Con (starting stat): The old cliché “Con is not a dump stat” is very apt. Try not to start with less than 14 no matter what class you are.
    Con Items: Get a ring or belt etc with as high a Con as possible
    Con Tomes: Get one, even a plus 2 is good and not too expensive on the AH
    Con: Ship buff
    False Life: Always wear an item with the biggest False Life on it you can
    Toughness Feat: Fit it in your build, somehow.
    Toughness Action points: A no brainer once you have the feat
    Toughness Item: Get the Minos Helm from The Orchard as soon as you can handle it, also has heavy fort on it.
    Guild Crystals: Look out for/buy an item with a guild slot and put a health gem in it. (House K for the crystals and by the bank in the Market Place to put it in)
    Spells: If you are a class that can cast rage do it as much as possible
    Green Steel: Get flagged and do the shroud as soon as possible and make a cheap HP item.

    Also, while not hit points, get an item that adds heavy fortification. You will die a lot less as critical hits will kill you quickly without this.

    While it may not be possible to get all the above at once, most are easily achievable and will make a massive difference to your survivability.

  2. #2
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Limey View Post
    While it may not be possible to get all the above at once, most are easily achievable and will make a massive difference to your survivability.
    I have seen no evidence of this. Once ran with a 950 hp barbarian (before MotU) that died about 3 times in Mired with Kobolds elite. No one else ever even came close to dying.

    In DDO, saves > evasion > movement speed > deathward/neg immunity > immunity to level drain > energy resistance/prot > deathblock > 75% miss chance > 50% miss chance > hit points ~= heavy fortification > DR, at least as far as death is concerned. Sure, someone with a small hit point container may need healing more often.

    Notice I said may. Small hit point containers provoke more careful gameplay in good and bad players alike.

    I know you are proud of your hit point total. It is fairly meaningless. My sorceror's hit points jumped from ~260 to ~424 since the MotU expansion. I do not die less than before the expansion. Due to various game changes, bugs, and high level gameplay in general, I seem to actually die a bit more than I used to.

    Seeing someone with a small amount of hit points probably just means they are low man on the grinding totem pole. They will die more often simply because of their inexperience. The proper way to keep them playing is to go out of your way to protect them from aggro, heal them before they fall into danger, and offer them equipment that is more suitable to their level if they don't already have it.

    The 7 hit points from toughness + 14 con (vs. 8 con and no toughness) at level 1 to 103 hit points at level 25 is not the difference-maker you want it to be. Letting someone on your ship for 30 resists at low level will have a nearly infinitely larger impact on their survivability.
    Last edited by Raithe; 11-16-2012 at 10:53 AM.

  3. #3
    Community Member Cap_Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Small hit point containers provoke more careful gameplay in good and bad players alike.
    This is True.

    And it is also true that for new players the OP's info is very useful.

  4. #4
    Community Member Seb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Small hit point containers provoke more careful gameplay in good and bad players alike.
    I respectfully disagree. To me a good player is a player who demonstrates the ability to learn from mistakes. A bad player to me is one who does not demonstrate an ability to learn from mistakes. Under this definition I have met many more good players than bad players. I have, however, met a number of players who build characters with few hit points and show no inclination to play them carefully.

    Hit points are your base defense against everything. Death spells are the only effect that ignores HP and even that if you make your save it comes back to HP. All of the other defenses are worth consideration but I agree with the OP that HP are the first defensive attribute that new players should concentrate on.

    For new players at low levels I would put extra emphasis on False Life and the Toughness feat. At low levels +3 Con is the most you can really hope for and that only grants you +1 or +2 HP per level. So at level 5 you might get a maximum of +10 to your HP from your Con item. On the other hand you can get a +10 hp false life item with no minimum level. The HP from the Toughness feat itself is pretty small at low levels but it gives access to action point enhancements that can be quite significant.
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  5. #5
    Community Member Limey's Avatar
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    The purpose of this thread is not to state that hps are the only way to impove survivability but if you are joining groups running elite sands quests with 100hps its a good place to start.

    Also: "I know you are proud of your hit point total" I made no such statement

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    In DDO, saves > evasion > movement speed > deathward/neg immunity > immunity to level drain > energy resistance/prot > deathblock > 75% miss chance > 50% miss chance > hit points ~= heavy fortification > DR, at least as far as death is concerned.
    WOW! No, sorry, but heavy fort all the way at the end? No.

    It should go:

    0. DPS (Sadly, DPS is king in DDO, and deserves not only the #1 spot, but the before #1 spot) Killing things before they can even get near attacking you is the best defense.

    1. Saves ONLY if you have evasion too>
    2. Heavy fort OR Hit points, I prefer the Heavy Fort though (yeah, it's that important, maybe more, being critted on a x3 or x4 on EE will do well over 500 damage, so unless you have enough HPs you need Heavy Fort, its really a one or the other kind of thing)>
    3. Deathblock/ward>
    4. HEAL AMP (you left that one out)>
    5. Miss chance (I'm talking blur/displacement, not AC/dodge, I think you were too but it was unclear)>
    6. Neg immunity/Level Drain immunity (which can be cured by a restore in like one click, so the only real issue here is the drain on mana, not death, if we're talking ONLY death then it goes even further back)>
    7. Protection from elements>
    8. Saves without evasion (seriously, saves without evasion is kind of just for poison, disease, and hold monster, so not all that important, IMO, even my best paladins with crazy high saves didn't save against anything of importance until I splashed their second level of rogue or monk)>
    9. DR (like serious WF tank or shieldblocking tank, and even then that's just been so overshadowed it still deserves to be above the next one)>
    10. AC/dodge (even after the changes it's not that great, and in fact the few people who used to be able to get 95% AC now have in the mid 70% range so it made it worse for the few who could AC tank)>
    11. Standard DR (items/barbarian)>
    12. Hit points OR heavy fort, once again Heavy fort being the better of the two.
    13. Movement Speed (I didn't get this one being on the list at all, honestly, but if it belongs somewhere, it's behind hit points).

    Now, yeah, your point on this thread, "HP isn't that big a deal," is true. But the rest of your list was just awful. I mean, you NEED heavy fort, otherwise you do in fact need major hit points and crazy good self heals. Saying heavy fort goes at the bottom is just silly.

    Anyway, the reasoning behind Hit Points being at the bottom is that hit points don't stop you from taking damage or dying from it, they give you a buffer to get healed in time before you die. If you have nothing but hit points, you'll spend the entire game chugging pots or being carried by the cleric who is tired of wasting his blue to keep you alive. More hit points is just a drain on resources if you don't have everything else above it in the list.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    The 7 hit points from toughness + 14 con (vs. 8 con and no toughness) at level 1 to 103 hit points at level 25 is not the difference-maker you want it to be. Letting someone on your ship for 30 resists at low level will have a nearly infinitely larger impact on their survivability.
    This, by the way, is broken in how true it is

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by countfitz View Post
    It should go:
    0. DPS (Sadly, DPS is king in DDO...
    Yes. But note, this thread is about tips for new players, when in party with vets. In that case, you only need two things:

    1. HP (so that you're not kicked from party on sight)
    2. run speed (to keep up with the zerg)

    all other things are optional

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by cru121 View Post
    Yes. But note, this thread is about tips for new players, when in party with vets. In that case, you only need two things:

    1. HP (so that you're not kicked from party on sight)
    2. run speed (to keep up with the zerg)

    all other things are optional
    AH! That 1) explains the run speed issue, and 2) the OP's point!

    This is a piking guide

    Then my entire post, which I actually spent great thought in, was all for not.

  10. #10
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    Overall, by the way, this was a great list OP, and didn't want to come off seeming like I didn't think it was useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Limey View Post
    Con (starting stat): The old cliché “Con is not a dump stat” is very apt. Try not to start with less than 14 no matter what class you are.
    Con Items: Get a ring or belt etc with as high a Con as possible
    Con Tomes: Get one, even a plus 2 is good and not too expensive on the AH
    Con: Ship buff
    False Life: Always wear an item with the biggest False Life on it you can
    Toughness Feat: Fit it in your build, somehow.
    Toughness Action points: A no brainer once you have the feat
    Toughness Item: Get the Minos Helm from The Orchard as soon as you can handle it, also has heavy fort on it.
    Guild Crystals: Look out for/buy an item with a guild slot and put a health gem in it. (House K for the crystals and by the bank in the Market Place to put it in)
    Spells: If you are a class that can cast rage do it as much as possible
    Green Steel: Get flagged and do the shroud as soon as possible and make a cheap HP item.

    Also, while not hit points, get an item that adds heavy fortification. You will die a lot less as critical hits will kill you quickly without this.

    While it may not be possible to get all the above at once, most are easily achievable and will make a massive difference to your survivability.
    To this I want to say Con can be put at 12 on drow and elves.

    I wholely agree with guild crystals. I always have at least one lootgen item on a build so I can have a guild slot. In fact, I have sacrificed run speed on my current TR build for 20 HPs (at level 1, the run speed is painful, but you pretty much double your HP, when putting them on boots). I find boots are the most expendable place to do this, though my main and my wife's main use convelescent bracers with slots, which were a nice addition to the game, replacing our Levik's.

    Everyone should run the rats in the orchard til ransack at level 12, over and over til they get their Minos. Even a noob can kill the rats, it's great XP, and if you have a vet/higher level player you can hit the caravan as well and do it in half the time. They're just rats, and anyone with a proper, cheap bane weapon with any element will destroy them in no time.

    I'd add: If you're not a class that can cast rage, RAGE POTS.

    To the Green Steel comment, I'd hold off on making the cheapest possible item. Some patience to get a dual shard item, depending on build, might be a better choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Limey View Post
    Most deaths are caused by running out of hit points
    I disagree, personally for me most deaths are me being too lazy to cast some basic spells like deathward/resists or getting dungeon alerted or, just a week ago (embarrassing) I died from not being able to JUMP over a mob that surrounded me while I was zerging with Blade Barriers.

  11. #11
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    Sestra told me that you don't need HP if you have AC.

  12. #12
    Community Member Cap_Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cru121 View Post
    Yes. But note, this thread is about tips for new players, when in party with vets. In that case, you only need two things:

    1. HP (so that you're not kicked from party on sight)
    2. run speed (to keep up with the zerg)

    all other things are optional
    lol, I thought the 'run speed' was for when things go south

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  13. #13
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    Default Damage happens

    Low hp is fine if you solo and have immense amount of money. Otherwise its simply stupid a human or wf sorc first life can easily.get to 350 hp with readily available gear or nearly 470 hp with very good gear. Casters are the lowest hp class. Having low hp hurts you and everyone around you. Being dead is really boring. Being a drain on the party is not kind. Finally proving that you can level up a poorly thought out toon is not an innovation. Staying alive and contributing is the implicit promise you make when you join a group.


    The instant a very low hp usually a drow joins a pug most experienced players usually are just waiting for you to die and the resulting. xp penalty. Basiscallly low hp tooms are walkimg xp penalties.

  14. #14
    Community Member MrStinky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunga View Post
    Sestra told me that you don't need HP if you have AC.
    This is what i call pouring fuel on a fire! +1 to you!

  15. #15
    Hero Cardoor's Avatar
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    Few More Tips:

    - If you see something explosive, melee it for better dungeon alert.

    - If you are in the middle of a trap, stand still, so it doesn't notice you.

    - If someone casts web, cast fireball before the spiders show up.

    - Max out your heal skill points in case the healer goes afk.

    - Save all of your potions your first life, so you dont have to buy any in the marketplace when you TR.

    - Healers should always follow the guy that breaks from the group and dies a lot, that way you can tell the rest of the group what to watch out for while they are retrieving your stones.

    - If the party leader stops next to a lever/switch/NPC and starts typing something, show initiative and assume they want you to experiment with it.

    - Never use dismiss charm until someone tells you where to find it in your feats, otherwise they were probably just joking.

    - Kill enemy spellcasters last, since they have the lowest hp.

    - Write forum advice when you should be working

  16. #16
    Community Member Soul_Power's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by countfitz View Post
    0. DPS (Sadly, DPS is king in DDO, and deserves not only the #1 spot, but the before #1 spot) Killing things before they can even get near attacking you is the best defense.
    The most important thing in DDO is balance. As soon as you start to rate certain things as being more important than other things, you start to run into problems in DDO. Even run speed has the potential of being #1 on your little list, just depending on the time and place. Balance and resourcefulness is what kills things not DPS because how can you deal out DPS when you're dead.

    As far as hitpoints go, generally the builds that seem to have too few hitpoints are lacking in balance and/or resourcefulness. If you have a 28 point build, and you maxed out a single ability at the start (except for con of course), then chances are your character is lacking in HP and is imbalanced. If you didn't take the toughness feat, you are denying yourself of all those toughness enhancements (which can mean up to 80hp in some cases) and you simply are not being resourceful. You want toughness. You want toughness as your first feat every time.

  17. #17
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    I can see the point in making this thread OP and Newbies may indeed find it very useful.

    However:

    I'm sorry but 14 Con base is Not the Minimum requirement!

    For an Elf or a Drow it is fine to start with 12 Con! Don't gimp your character just to get those extra 28hp at cap!

    Gear and The Toughness Feat/Enhancements are far far more important than Base Con! Yes it's a d@rn good idea to put at least a few points in Con when creating your character but I see far too many people advocating the 14 Con Base as an absolute Minimum when it is no such thing!

    14 for a Human, H-Elf, Halfling, H-Orc = 16 for a Dwarf or WF and 12 for an Elf/Drow.
    You can easily leave your Dwarf or WF at 14 Base Con to gain extra points elsewhere.
    Pushing Con to 14 on an Elf/Drow CAN gimp your build!

    Oh and There are quite a few Prestiges where taking Toughness should in my view be relegated to around Lvl 9 {Unless you're Human and have the spare feat} - Ranger and Artificer builds are especially tight here.
    If someone tells you you've got too few hp on your Lvl 7 Ranger/Arti they don't know what they're talking about frankly!

    I'm no great shakes at playing this game yet I can level a non-human/non-WF Arti past Lvl 7 {from Lvl 1} doing Elite Bravery all the way with less than 80hp - I take Quicken for Flame Turret, Extend and Augment Summoning as well as Ranged feats before I take Toughness.

    HAVING SAID ALL THIS: I am in no way advocating Low HP at High Lvls!
    Greater False Life = 30
    Toughness {Minos Legens, Thaarak Bracers, Some new random Loot} = 20
    Toughness Feat + Enhancements {From lvl 9 at the latest as a Newbie}.
    And a Base Con of at least 12 {Elf/Drow - 14 for anyone else}.
    Are easy enough to get.

    Don't let people talking about Greensteel put you off - That's for 2nd Life + as you're not getting it before Lvl 17 min on your first Life.
    You can get Superior False Life too at the higher Lvls.
    And a Stalwart Trinket from Crystal Cove also adds HP if I remember correctly.
    + If you're in a Guild and have an Augment Slot handy - Guild Augment Crystals of Health are your friend.

    There are plenty of ways to get HP at higher levels - You don't want to be still wearing the Rugged Belt from Korthos at Lvl 10 and you don't want to still be wearing Nightforge Bracers {Imp False Life} at Lvl 20.

  18. #18
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soul_Power View Post
    The most important thing in DDO is balance. As soon as you start to rate certain things as being more important than other things, you start to run into problems in DDO. Even run speed has the potential of being #1 on your little list, just depending on the time and place. Balance and resourcefulness is what kills things not DPS because how can you deal out DPS when you're dead.

    As far as hitpoints go, generally the builds that seem to have too few hitpoints are lacking in balance and/or resourcefulness. If you have a 28 point build, and you maxed out a single ability at the start (except for con of course), then chances are your character is lacking in HP and is imbalanced. If you didn't take the toughness feat, you are denying yourself of all those toughness enhancements (which can mean up to 80hp in some cases) and you simply are not being resourceful. You want toughness. You want toughness as your first feat every time.
    Your first paragraph is Perfect.
    Your second paragraph however is completely wrong.

    If you max Con on a Drow Paladin then trust me you've gimped your toon.
    If you max Con on a Rogue Mech or Artificer then you've dropped your multiple main stats.
    If you max Con on a 28pt {heck even a 32 pt} Caster then you're losing DCs.

    Toughness is an amazing and Vital feat - However there are many people who will disagree on needing to take it at lvl 1.
    At Lvl 1 Toughness = 4 hp!
    At Lvl 9 it only equals = 13hp without Enhancements!
    Once you've got the Enhancements it's great - But even then: Not needed at low level.
    I don't know a single build where it's impossible to get by Lvl 9 though so I say: You should have Toughness {Feat} by Lvl 9 at the latest.
    You can redo your enhancements at this point if you wish OR you can simply take the Toughness Enhancements as they come up.

    Remember to look for HP gear as you level!
    A 20th level Barbarian with a Base Con of 20, a +6 Con item, 1 Toughness Feat and 4 Enhancements = 463 HP!
    A 20th Level Barbarian with 463 HP would be laughed out of most groups in this game {More's the Pity in my view}.
    Greater False Life = 30, Toughness {item} = 20 - You can now have a base Con of 18 and have 2 Extra points in STR and 493 HP on your Barb!
    Add Ship Buffs and you're Over 500, Add 45hp Greensteel item and you've passed 550, A +2 Con tome will take you to 578?
    Some people will still consider that low btw.
    P.S. This is Non-Raged as I'm not going to advocate Hitting Rage before Hitting LFMs!
    P.P.S. I'm assuming Level up pts have gone into STR!
    Last edited by FranOhmsford; 11-16-2012 at 01:42 PM.

  19. #19
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by countfitz View Post
    It should go:
    Yes, well, for the sake of simplifying a slightly complex model, people tend to divide their analysis into offensive and defensive measures. For example, healing amp is an offensive measure, not a defensive one. Someone has to offensively cast a cure spell on you in order for healing amp to come into play.

    I could have listed quicken as probably being the top contributor to not dying across certain classes - provided the character in question has spell points for the situation at hand. That simply becomes too complex for discussion. We need to use generalizations.

    I limited my analysis to purely defensive measures (precast buffs, gear effects, attributes, saves, and skills). My list is also a simplification, but holds up pretty well as I continue to analyze it. As for miss chance, that represents the combined probability of being missed with melee/ranged from AC/concealment/incorporeal/dodge/etc. Of course a 50% miss chance is going to be more effective for survival than a heavy fort or hit point emphasis, because:

    1) It effectively doubles your hit points from a 0% miss chance
    2) It may reduce the chance of crit confirmation (if it involves AC)
    3) It halves the number of crits you would be subject to anyway
    4) It is extremely likely to limit the damage taken when targetted by multiple mobs (it only takes 3 or 4 mobs to equate to a crit damage from one)

    You need to understand that I am speaking from a great deal of experience. It is simple to order heavy fort and 50% miss because it is easy to compare having heavy fort with having displacement. I can tell you I would much rather run without heavy fort than run without displacement. It's why I spend spell points on the the latter.

    The point is that there are many other things a new player should focus on first, before worrying about satisfying the ubers to get into their group (many of which ubers are far from actually being uber). DDO has a low retention rate of new players because "vets" (not really) are telling them the wrong things to try first.

  20. #20
    Community Member Soul_Power's Avatar
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    I wasn't trying to give the impression that maxing con was a good idea and will give you a balanced character, quite the opposite actually. My point was that con is the only ability you can max and not have hp issues with a 28 point build unless you are like a Wizard with only int and con (which is why I said "generally" in the first place).

    As far as taking toughness at level 1, yeah I know it's not necessary. Low levels are a cakewalk anyway, no feat is really necessary at such low levels. Believe me though, +10 hp at level 1 means a LOT more than +20 hp at level 20. That is my mentality towards taking toughness first. It's still easy enough to stomp low level quests on elite without it.

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