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  1. #41
    Community Member squishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    You seem to really be invested in the idea that first life rogue splashes simply can't cut it.
    Not at all.

    However, it is a tendency in this specific forum to recommend to a *new* player builds that require some sort of favor unlock (like 32-point builds), a splashed build, or a build that requires at least 1 TR. For the most part, it is useless advice.

    A new player comes in, they are generally not going to have 32-point builds unlocked. And they probably won't buy them from the DDO store right off the bat.

    Your average new player is not going to get his toon ready for a TR in a week, so any advice that requires a past life is sorta pointless.

    Splashed builds, while attractive for being very generalized, have two distinct drawbacks. First, a new player does not get the full feel for any class because they never reach the capstone. They also have to spread out their skill points across various skills, and leave them a tad thinly stretched. Second, if you screw up the build, it is slightly harder to repair.

    Moreover, people who put out these builds often do not highlight their shortcomings...and there are shortcomings. No matter which direction you go for a first life, you are going to have limitations. So when you put up a splashed build, one of the things you should highlight is where the shortcomings are, and how to offset them.

    Plus there is a distinct difference in what environment you run your toon: solo or PUGs. Or you can add a static group in there if you like.

    Solo runs are fairly straightforward. You play your toon the way you play your toon, and if you wipe in a quest you either do a different set of quests where your toon will be more successful, change tactics, or hope you get lucky on one or more die rolls. There are really no expectations on how you use your toon other than your own.

    Static groups are probably much easier because everyone knows the strenghts and weaknesses of everyone else. Som, after a while, you almost end up working as a cohesive unit.

    I do a lot of PUGs. In fact, for the last year, most of my play time has been spent in a PUG. The demands on a class - any class - depends on the makeup of the PUG, and that has a wide field of variation. Yeah, you'll get the occasional "every man for themselves" group. However, many of them are going to demand specific skills from specific classes, on a wide range of quests. If you're billed as a wizzy, I can almost guarantee you that you'd better do decent charms / holds / disco balls and instakills. I mean, I personally don't have a problem with an evocation or conjuration spec-ed wizzy if they can pull it off well. But I'm generally in the minority.

    Just to reiterate, whether you go splashed or pure on a first-life toon, you're going to have limitations. No one, it seems, has a problem pointing out the limitations on a pure class build. But there are a lot of people touting splashed builds as if they are the end-all-be-all of the game. And a new player picking that up and going that direction, I believe, will learn a difficult lesson that they are not, especially in a PUG. I'm not saying that you, specifically, are touting a wizzy / rogue splash as an end-all-be-all build, but simply that many people do.

    Me personally, I don't have a bias towards splashed builds. I'm staying pure right now because I'm getting a feel for the classes themselves as they relate to the game (and building up my stash of essences). There is only one build that I'd ever be tempted to play at this point, and that is one that Avalon created, which is a takeoff on a Death Knight, which I thought was horribly cool.

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Just to let you know, wizards/rogues get their reflex save from INT, not DEX, so no, the number of points doesn't matter.
    True. Not really debating that point. Simply that opening locks requires a decent DEX score, and not INT, and you lose an additional evasion feat because you stopped at 2 levels of rogue. That's all.
    Last edited by squishwizzy; 11-16-2012 at 12:49 PM.
    Antipan, Pandargon, Pandolin, Panifin, Panmorgan, Pangrael, and all other things "pan-ed"...

  2. #42
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squishwizzy View Post
    Not at all.

    However, it is a tendency in this specific forum to recommend to a *new* player builds that require some sort of favor unlock (like 32-point builds), a splashed build, or a build that requires at least 1 TR. For the most part, it is useless advice.

    Splashed builds, while attractive for being very generalized, have two distinct drawbacks. First, a new player does not get the full feel for any class because they never reach the capstone. They also have to spread out their skill points across various skills, and leave them a tad thinly stretched. Second, if you screw up the build, it is slightly harder to repair.

    True. Not really debating that point. Simply that opening locks requires a decent DEX score, and not INT, and you lose an additional evasion feat because you stopped at 2 levels of rogue. That's all.
    wizard and rogue is one splash build that works well for a 28 point build. Because the trapping skills work off of intelligence.

    As for not getting improved evasion, artificers don't even get one, so this splash is ahead of them on that point.

    Opening locks, i don't know, we would need someone who plays a dex dumped strength rogue to advise how that works with lock opening. I'm sure it isn't a problem if you are able to max out the skill points. That might be the rub here, with all the cross class skills you can't really max out all the signature rogue abilities, something has to give. That will be umd, spot, or open locks. Between those three i would probably let open locks slide, although umd on a pale master might not be that useful.

    Most people trying this build will be doing it to avoid getting killed by traps, or possibly just for the extra xp trapping generates. I've run tons of quests, in groups with no trapper. As far as i know there are no quests that require you to pick any locks to complete them. One chest full of junk loot more or less is a little thing. If there are some quests where there may be some desired named item in a locked chest, just make sure you bring a lock picker.

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by squishwizzy View Post
    However, it is a tendency in this specific forum to recommend to a *new* player builds that require some sort of favor unlock (like 32-point builds), a splashed build, or a build that requires at least 1 TR. For the most part, it is useless advice.

    A new player comes in, they are generally not going to have 32-point builds unlocked. And they probably won't buy them from the DDO store right off the bat.

    Your average new player is not going to get his toon ready for a TR in a week, so any advice that requires a past life is sorta pointless.

    Splashed builds, while attractive for being very generalized, have two distinct drawbacks. First, a new player does not get the full feel for any class because they never reach the capstone. They also have to spread out their skill points across various skills, and leave them a tad thinly stretched. Second, if you screw up the build, it is slightly harder to repair.
    I disagree, and I don't think my new player builds (evasion paladin, pale trapper, both splashes and both linked in signature) mislead new players or steer them down a wrong path in any way.

    And despite your protestations that you aren't against splash builds, you just wrote a dissertation against them.

    EDIT: Also, I plain don't believe you when you tell me that I don't have a feel for wizards because I've only played splashed wizards.

  4. #44
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    My 1st life level 12 rogue has a 62 reflex save and can get any trap or chest in content up to 20. No greensteel or raid loot or +3 tomes or djinni tricks. Food for thought.

  5. #45
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunga View Post
    My 1st life level 12 rogue has a 62 reflex save and can get any trap or chest in content up to 20. No greensteel or raid loot or +3 tomes or djinni tricks. Food for thought.
    You're joking, right? There is no way you have a 62 reflex save. And what are you doing playing in level 20 dungeons at level 12? Actually i'm pretty sure you can't even get into level 20 dungeons at level 12.
    Last edited by FestusHood; 11-17-2012 at 01:18 AM.

  6. #46
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    Maybe he means disable device roll? Problem is SEARCHING for a level 20 trap at level 12 ...

  7. #47
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefferweffer View Post
    Maybe he means disable device roll? Problem is SEARCHING for a level 20 trap at level 12 ...
    After reading it again i think he must have mistyped and meant to say level 21. Or he is joking. Still don't believe he has a 62 reflex save unless he is counting a whole bunch of temporary buffs, which i don't tend to consider part of a build.

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