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  1. #1
    Community Member Nouda_EU's Avatar
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    Default Remembrance... Lest we forget

    I would just like for people to take a moment to reflect during this time of year on remembrance and the meaning of remembrance

    Every nation has its own way of remembering those killed in conflict. Each November Remembrance follows a seemingly unchanging pattern: millions of people wear poppies and two minutes' silence is observed at war memorials around the world. Today young people are taught that through Remembrance we thank those who gave their lives to defend our liberty and freedom, and show support for members of today's armed services. But when poppy-wearing started after the First World War it had a rather different purpose: the flowers of Flanders Field were worn to express grief and to declare that war should never happen again. Remembrance throws up questions that demand to be answered but are too often ignored: What does it mean to be heroic? What, in the military context, does glory mean? But most fundamental of all - what is the purpose of Remembrance? Is it to honour and thank the fallen, those who gave their lives in wars? To give comfort to those who mourn their loss? If Remembrance does not serve as a warning against war, a reminder to the nation to rededicate itself to peace, then, Harrison argues, it is a sanctimonious and futile waste of time. Proposing a return to the original ideals of Remembrance, and suggesting many changes to the modern-day spectacle, Remembrance Today is a powerful polemic on how our ideas of heroism, duty and grief have lost their way which calls for a refocusing of Remembrance from its current divisive tradition to a more uniting and appropriate observance.
    This is an expect from an amazing book that I feel it is an imporant read.

    'Not everyone will agree with Ted Harrison's book, and some will find it downright uncomfortable. But it asks questions that should be asked and provides answers which are thoughtful and impressive . . . This is a brave book and an important one for those who understand that the primary drivers of war are not weapons but the minds of men.' --Paddy Ashdown

    find it: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rememberance...2567753&sr=1-6

    I shall be holding my 2 minutes silence tomorrow and wearing a poppy to remeber.
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  2. #2
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    On this I agree with Harrison completely. Our current observance of Rememberance day is a sham; we most certainly do NOT remember, nor learn from, the horrors of our wars. We treat our Veterans like social pariah, from the moment they return home to the moment they fade and die. Western culture has turned this day into just another facetious participation sport. Even in our Legions, November 22nd is just a good excuse to get drunk(er than usual).

    Why do we bother to *****-foot around? Call it like it is. We don't fight for freedom or any lofty ideals anyways anymore. We need people to man the guns, but we don't really want them to come home to remind us of the murders we've sanctioned.

    As long as we continue to GO to war, we have no right to claim We Remember.
    Quote Originally Posted by Towrn
    ...when the worst thing that happens when you make a mistake at your job is someone complains on the internet, you probably care a little less!

  3. #3
    Community Member Arnhelm's Avatar
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    Here in the US, on this day, Veteran's Day, we honor those who have served, those still living, those who died peacefully, and those who bought the farm while serving.

    On Memorial Day we specifically honor those who died in service to our country.
    There is no free lunch.

  4. #4
    Community Member Inferno346's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nouda_EU View Post
    <excerpt>
    Did he really write "Harrison argues" in his own book? I don't think that's an excerpt.
    Thelanis: Takhysys, Tenauch, Vitriolus, Kalav, Leprous

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnhelm View Post
    Here in the US, on this day, Veteran's Day, we honor those who have served, those still living, those who died peacefully, and those who bought the farm while serving.

    On Memorial Day we specifically honor those who died in service to our country.
    This is largely because we allowed ourselves to be dragged into the "Great War" until after most of the fighters (and all other available able bodied men) had already been killed. For those who fought in that war, the eleventh day of the eleventh month is their "memorial day".

    In Flanders fields the poppies blow
    Between the crosses, row on row,
    That mark our place; and in the sky
    The larks, still bravely singing, fly
    Scarce heard amid the guns below.

    We are the Dead. Short days ago
    We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
    Loved and were loved, and now we lie
    In Flanders fields.

    Take up our quarrel with the foe:
    To you from failing hands we throw
    The torch; be yours to hold it high.
    If ye break faith with us who die
    We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
    In Flanders fields.


    I guess the whole issue is who the "foe" really is. I have always taken it at face value and assumed that this was somebody who drank the flavor-aid at Jonestown convincing those still in line to drink it. Obviously, I have a few problems with this poem. Yes, and for those who think of this only as "veteran's day", those who dwell in Flander's fields essentially kept doing things like Pickets's charge (or maybe like Fredericksburg for a yankee) only with the defense using machine guns until they were all dead. It really was like drinking the flavor-aid at Jonestown.

  6. #6
    Community Member Nouda_EU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inferno346 View Post
    Did he really write "Harrison argues" in his own book? I don't think that's an excerpt.
    no in on the blurb
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  7. #7
    Community Member Nouda_EU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnhelm View Post
    Here in the US, on this day, Veteran's Day, we honor those who have served, those still living, those who died peacefully, and those who bought the farm while serving.

    On Memorial Day we specifically honor those who died in service to our country.
    Thanks but i think you missed the point behind the post
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  8. #8
    Community Member Inferno346's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nouda_EU View Post
    no in on the blurb
    Okay. An excerpt means a direct quotation-- this is a description, summary, or blurb, not an excerpt.
    Thelanis: Takhysys, Tenauch, Vitriolus, Kalav, Leprous

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nouda_EU View Post
    Thanks but i think you missed the point behind the post
    Harrison should hang his head in shame... because if we did not remember the fallen and what they gave... he would not be here to talk his dribble... I salute all our serving forces and those that have fallen so we can be here today. Hope people realize what our heroes have given ...

    That's the point behind my post. Thank you for reading.


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  10. #10
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    Harrison should hang his head in shame... because if we did not remember the fallen and what they gave... he would not be here to talk his dribble... I salute all our serving forces and those that have fallen so we can be here today. Hope people realize what our heroes have given ...

    That's the point behind my post. Thank you for reading.
    Harrison isn't saying we shouldn't remember, Leslie. You too seem to be missing the point.

    If Remembrance does not serve as a warning against war, a reminder to the nation to rededicate itself to peace, then, Harrison argues, it is a sanctimonious and futile waste of time.
    This is NOT dribble (I think you mean drivel, and it's not that either).
    Quote Originally Posted by Towrn
    ...when the worst thing that happens when you make a mistake at your job is someone complains on the internet, you probably care a little less!

  11. #11
    Community Member barberous's Avatar
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    Default useless TALK

    unless you have been there, do not quote writers, poets, academics,treat your sevicemen and women with the respect they deserve. and remember those who did not return with respect and love.

    they shall not grow old
    as we that a left grow old
    age shall not weary them
    nor the years condem
    at the going down of the sun

    WE WILL REMEMBER THEM


    TO ALL WHO ARE SERVING GOD BLESS
    DEATH IS A STATE OF MIND
    love life - love the game
    barberous
    OFFICER OFDARKBREW

  12. #12
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    it's fascinating to me that people are taking this in a negative way. No one here is 'anti-rememberance day'. Why you're deciding to see this as an insult to soldiers is beyond me. It's not. It's a reproach against western society, in that we seem to be 'going through the motions' of Rememberance, without the true learning that the soldiers' sacrifice demands of us...
    Last edited by IWCoppercrest; 11-12-2012 at 07:51 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Towrn
    ...when the worst thing that happens when you make a mistake at your job is someone complains on the internet, you probably care a little less!

  13. #13
    Community Member Bekki's Avatar
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    * let me try to say this better than I did before...
    I have not read this mans book so I can not adequately comment on it.
    But.

    Whether or not I agree or disagree with his point of view...
    He has every right in the world to have it.

    That is what I support. And that is why I remember. Because when we start limiting
    And controlling free Speech we start down the path to what we stand against.

    He remembers and believes what he believes. He wants what we want.
    To remember.

    To dedicate ourselves to peace, and that is what every warrior wants.
    The day when we can ALL lay down our arms forever.

    And it is a beautiful dream indeed.

    But as long as there are those in the world who choose to govern by fear
    Tyranny, and Oppression... Then sadly we must take up the means to defend ourselves
    And sadly we must fight. The price of peace, is eternal vigilance.

    And I support the troops who sadly must walk into the fire so that we can remain safe.
    Last edited by Bekki; 11-12-2012 at 09:53 AM.
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  14. #14
    Community Member Nouda_EU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barberous View Post
    unless you have been there, do not quote writers, poets, academics,treat your sevicemen and women with the respect they deserve. and remember those who did not return with respect and love.

    they shall not grow old
    as we that a left grow old
    age shall not weary them
    nor the years condem
    at the going down of the sun

    WE WILL REMEMBER THEM


    TO ALL WHO ARE SERVING GOD BLESS
    Bill Mitton Electrician, Soldier, Electronics Engineer, Quality Engineer (Part-time playwrite, writer, poet, Scholar, Historian,)

    What Need I the Waving Flags
    I watch these old men march
    Berated and badged
    as I was in years long gone.
    Though I understand
    and will honour their need.
    I will never join them.
    I need no marching or medals
    to do honour to comrades dead
    the metal would lie heavy
    upon my aging chest.
    I find no honour in gravestones
    the faces in my memory
    are still happy and young
    I would rather they were here
    growing old, honoured by
    their children's children.
    I need no military band.
    I keep alive within my soul
    the music of my comrades' songs
    They are my morning reveille
    and my twilights taps
    What need I the waving flags
    of these patronising politicians,
    and hindsight's patriots
    when these self same
    cloaked in self interest,
    barter and sell the peace
    hard bought by young lives,
    whilst their casual neglect
    of our injured and our widows
    do such dishonour to our dead.
    What right have I of medals
    For I am here, aging still.
    I hold in trust the memories of
    such youthful, selfless, sacrifice
    their smiles will haunt me ever.
    For as our young soldiers still do.
    I have, in scaring gried, carried home,
    brave men upon their shields.
    alternative another except (this time it is)

    B
    ut what happens when pride and patriotism exist without grief? In extremis, acts of Remembrance can then become celebrations of idealised militarism. Instead of regretting the need for fighting, the act of fighting is glorified. In 1934 the Nazis in Germany deliberately subverted the national day of mourning for the dead of 1914-18 by changing the country's Remembrance Day, Volkstrauertag, to Heldengedenktag, a day for the commemorations of heroes. The focus of the day was moved from sorrowful recollection to hero-worship, and in particular the glorification of those who had died for the Fatherland in the First World War. The masters of propaganda realized that Remembrance, by being linked with patriotism, could become and expression less of sorrow than of national regenerations. on the instructions of Joseph Goebbels even the practice of flying flags at half-mast was discontinued. This was an overly political act.
    Bekki I completely agree with everything you say

    not only should we defend ourselves but any nation in the UN had a duty to protect as well. so why is Somalia been in a civil war for over 20 years? The government has been trying to tackle the lawless ness of the country by uniting it under a democraticially elected goverment by fighting against the Al-Shabaab group of insurgents, Al-Shabaab by the way is the Somalia-based cell of the militant Islamist group al-Qaeda.

    Why is only the kenyan military supporting the somali government in this?! why doesnt the western world which prides its self of the defence of liberty not send troup to help get this country back on its feet. which as a consequence of resorting order would deal with the amount these government have to spend on hostage and security for our trade vessel in the indian ocean?
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  15. #15
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nouda_EU View Post
    Why is only the kenyan military supporting the somali government in this?! why doesnt the western world...
    That's not even remotely accurate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Towrn
    ...when the worst thing that happens when you make a mistake at your job is someone complains on the internet, you probably care a little less!

  16. #16
    Community Member Nouda_EU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    That's not even remotely accurate.
    well people are providing monitary support to them currently but the only troops on the ground are the Kenyans sorry if im mistaken but its what Indian Ocean with Simon Reeve displayed and wikipedia

    In October 2011, a coordinated operation between the Somali military and the Kenyan military began against the Al-Shabaab group of insurgents in southern Somalia.[29][30] The mission was officially led by the Somali army, with the Kenyan forces providing a support role.
    ref: http://www.mfa.go.ke/index.php?optio...&catid=35:news

    i believe they are there as part of African Union's misson in somalia.

    I would add that the counterpiracy forces – including EU Navfor, Nato, Russia and China are active in somalia's waters. but that is a whole other kettle of fish. It's the cynic in me that suggests that we are western countrys go to war for freedom and liberty and to defend when we have a vested interest we saricfic lives where we can gain a profit. It seems monsterous
    Last edited by Nouda_EU; 11-24-2012 at 01:23 PM.
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  17. #17
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    If you need the peace kept, the United Nations is perhaps the absolute last organization you should call upon. Their record in this particular area is even worse than is their norm....which is pretty bad. I'd much prefer the offices of the organizations Nouda mentions to take the lead in first defeating al-Shabaab and the taking steps to begin stabilizing the country.

    I hate to say this because I know the can of worms it risks opening, but what is happening in Somalia is yet another example of the proxy war between radical Islam and the terrorist states which support it and the West and the forces of (small-l) liberalism. The UN isn't the right organization to call in because they aren't sure which side they want to win.

    I'd say that the reason that you want the African Union to take point here is that they have the most to gain from a stabilized Somalia (and Nigeria, Sudan and other countries......but first things first). It appears the plan must be for the West to provide the brain and the African Union the brawn.

    Call it (potentially) the sequel to Vietnam.
    In an election, always vote for the candidate who likes big butts....because, you know, they cannot lie.

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