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  1. #1
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    Default Foundation for a Renown System

    This is just an effort to suggest some specific changes and to apply feedback to improve the renown system.
    ================================================== ================================================== =======
    Some requirements are here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=400039

    Suggested Changes to the Renown System:

    C1. Remove the Guild Account Size Bonus when a character loots renown. Just add the value to the character's total renown. This way a heroic deed gives 50 to everyone. A legendary gives 1000 to every character - no more no less.

    C2. Remove the Recent Departures and Scale the Active Accounts. Scale the active account to the number of days since any character from the guild that the account had log in. Let's take 30 days as the active cutoff. An account that had not logged on for 15 days would count as 0.5 account.

    Scaled Active Account = (active_cutoff - days_since_last_on) / active_cutoff or (30-15)/30 = 0.5

    Example with 190 accounts:
    Code:
    Account# Days_Since_Last_On  Scaled_Active_Account
    1            0                1
    2            6                0.8
    3            12               0.6
    4            15               0.5
    5            15               0.5
    6            24               0.2
    7            30               0
    8            40               0
    9            120              0 
    ...accounts 10 to 189 had not logged on for more than 30 days all scaled to 0...
    190          820              0
                                  -------
    Total Scaled Active Account = 3.6
    The Total Scaled Active Account (TSAA) for the above 190 accounts would be 3.6 accounts.

    C3. Guild Account Size Bonus (GASB). To be fair, scale the guild bonus to be based on 1000 accounts or some number that closely match the current renown levels (seed for this idea here http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...4&postcount=67).

    This system will use this generalized scaling formula:
    Guild Account Size Bogus (GASB) = small_size_bogus_factor * (large_size_bogus_factor * TSAA + 1000) / (TSAA * 1000)

    The small_size_bogus_factor will help small guilds. The large_size_bogus_factor will help guilds with large TSAA.

    Since we try to be fair, let's set both bogus factors to 2.718 for now.
    So Guild Account Size Bogus (GASB) = 2.718 * (2.718 * TSAA + 1000) / (TSAA * 1000)

    Our 190 accounts guild with 3.6 TSAA has a GASB = 2.718 * (2.718 * 3.6 + 1000) / (3.6 * 1000) or 0.762387524

    C4. Adjusted Character Renown (ACR). Based on how long it is since the account log on, apply a percentage of the character's renown to the guild. For simplicity, let's take 100 days as the base. A character with 100,000 total renown would add 100,000 renown to the guild when online. If that character goes inactive for 10 days, then only 90% of the renown would apply. After 100 days, the guild gets no more renown from that character. If the character logs on again after two years, the 100,000 would be added back to the guild again. There is no decay once the character earned it.

    Example with 700 characters with each having collected 100,000 renown:
    Code:
    character#  Days_since_online  Adjust%  Adjusted_Character_Renown
    1               0               1.00       100,000
    2               6               0.94       94,000
    3              12               0.88       88,000
    4              15               0.85       85,000
    5              15               0.85       85,000
    6              24               0.76       76,000
    7              30               0.7        70,000
    8              40               0.6        60,000
    9             120               0          0
    ...characters 10 to 699 had not logged on for 100 days adjust to 0...
    700           820               0          0
                                               ------------
    Total Adjusted Character Renown         =  658,000
    The Total Adjusted Character Renown (TACR) for the above 700 characters would be 658,000.

    C5. Guild Total Renown = Guild Account Size Bogus * Total Adjusted Character Renown. Apply the Guild Account Size Bogus (GASB) to the Total Adjusted Character Renown (TACR) of everyone in the guild.

    In the example above, the total guild renown would be = 0.762387524 * 658000 or 501651 renown for a large guild that still has only a few actives.

    But if all 190 accounts happen to log on at once after a big expansion, then the total guild renown would be 2.718 * (2.718 * 190 + 1000) / (190 * 1000) * 70000000 or 1518495.

    C6. Personal Renown . If a character leaves a guild for whatever reasons, the character gets to keep 50% of the renown (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...1&postcount=44 and http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=397680).

    ================================================== ================================================== =======

    Would the above system be fair for all? Why not? What adjustments would you make?
    If the system can be viable or improved, I'll try to update it with suggestions.

    Let's work together to find a better renown system so we can all can focus on more important matters like uhh...uh...sorry, gotta get back to farming renown.
    Last edited by Faxe; 11-28-2012 at 11:30 PM.

  2. #2
    Community Member MindCake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faxe View Post
    Would the above system be fair for all? Why not? What adjustments would you make?
    If the system can be viable or improved, I'll try to update it with suggestions.
    Pray tell, what exactly is the purpose of this exercise?
    What is fair? What is the goal?

    Seems like this would roughly count the average renown per account, adjusted up or down by a factor depending on how much the guild plays the system.
    But for "normal" guilds, with a bunch of people logging in every couple days, the SAA will be ~ number of accounts, ACR will be ~ total renown gathered.
    So, Guild Total Renown = Guild Account Size Bonus * Total Adjusted Character Renown = Total Adjusted Character Renown * 6 / (Total Scaled Active Account) ~ 6 * Total renown gathered / number of accounts = 6 * average renown per account.

    Now, if someone was to play the system, eg. forbid a group of guildies from logging in for 30 days, their accounts would stop counting for scaled active accounts, but their renown would still count for total (at 70%).

    Like, your guild, 190 accounts, 700 characters of 100000 xp each. Say they log into all their characters for a farewell party, and then migrate en masse to GW2 for 30 days.
    Except for the leader. He sits waiting.
    After 30 days, adjusted guild size is 1. Adjusted total renown is 70%*700*100000 xp = 49 mil.
    And so the guild total renown would be ~300 mil.
    The leader buys best airship, fills it with shrines, and the guild returns...

    Oh, and then they make another guild, and instead of going to GW2, they switch between the two on a 30 day schedule.
    Yay.
    Druids have a fundamental right to bear arms.

    "No more patterns" - Shroud puzzles guide.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindCake View Post
    Pray tell, what exactly is the purpose of this exercise?
    What is fair? What is the goal?
    The purpose is to help us find a better system. Fair is hard to know, but I think it's when the system does not inherently favor one group or play style over others. Some of the goals have been stated in the other threads.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindCake View Post

    Like, your guild, 190 accounts, 700 characters of 100000 xp each. Say they log into all their characters for a farewell party, and then migrate en masse to GW2 for 30 days.
    Except for the leader. He sits waiting.
    After 30 days, adjusted guild size is 1. Adjusted total renown is 70%*700*100000 xp = 49 mil.
    And so the guild total renown would be ~300 mil.
    The leader buys best airship, fills it with shrines, and the guild returns...

    Oh, and then they make another guild, and instead of going to GW2, they switch between the two on a 30 day schedule.
    Yay.
    Wow! Great feedback. I had not thought of that.

    So when the 190 accounts logs back on after 30 days, they are back to guild level 35 with the best airship and shrines. It won't last long.
    Switching characters to another guild would just reset the renown for those characters in the new guild just like what we have now.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindCake View Post
    Now, if someone was to play the system, eg. forbid a group of guildies from logging in for 30 days, their accounts would stop counting for scaled active accounts, but their renown would still count for total (at 70%).
    Would it be better to use the same cutoff days for characters/accounts?

  5. #5
    Community Member MindCake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faxe View Post
    Switching characters to another guild would just reset the renown for those characters in the new guild just like what we have now.
    Right. I meant, they'd have two accounts each, and like, play one in odd months and the other in even months, that way they'd have full buffs all the time... though it'd be kinda bothersome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Faxe View Post
    Would it be better to use the same cutoff days for characters/accounts?
    If the cutoffs were the same, a guild with one person would always beat a guild with multiple, because one guy is always on when he's on so he counts at 100%, and with multiple people some would be counting for less than that. So, to allow guilds with multiple players to level up, the renown drop rates would need to rise/ guild level requirements would need to drop.
    And then it'd be a simple matter to create two (three/four) mega beefy guild rep guys. Make each a guild leader of Sploiters, Sploiters too, (Spoiters tree/ Sploiters fore).
    Then, say everyone is in sploiters, and their shrines are beginning to disappear.
    Leader of sploiters too buys shrines.
    Everyone moves from sploiters to sploiters too.
    They play there for a month, until the shrines begin disappearing, then move back to sploiters (or sploiters tree or fore, if there are additional measures in place).
    Druids have a fundamental right to bear arms.

    "No more patterns" - Shroud puzzles guide.

  6. #6
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    Updated C2 in OP to include recent departures:

    C2. Scaled Active Account (SAA). Scale the active account to the number of days since any character from the guild that the account had log in. Let's take 30 days as the active cutoff and 14 days as the recent departure cutoff. An account that had not logged on for 15 days would count as 0.5 account. An account that had departed 5 days ago would count as 0.64 account.

    Scaled Active Account = (active_cutoff - days_since_last_on) / active_cutoff or (30-15)/30 = 0.5
    Scaled Recent Account = (recent_cutoff - days_since_depature) / recent_cutoff or (14-5)/14 = 0.64


    Updated C3 with a better formula based on 1000 accounts:
    Guild Account Size Bonus (GASB) = renown_constant * (TSAA + 1000)/(TSAA*1000)
    The renown_constant is just a number. It just means that a solo guild would need about 50,000,000/renown_constant to reach level 100.

    I will try to run some numbers to see how those beefy rep guild leaders will do now

  7. #7
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    I have removed the recent departures from C2. The renown system already adjusts for it automatically. I do not see a need for it.

    The formula for scaling guild bonus in C3 is tricky because it seems unfair by nature to have such a bonus. Our scaling bonus formula will be based on this simple scaling formula:
    Guild Account Size Bogus (GASB) = small_size_bogus_factor * (large_size_bogus_factor * TSAA + 1000) / (TSAA * 1000)

    The small_size_bogus_factor will help small guilds. The large_size_bogus_factor will help guilds with large TSAA. The two bogus factors can be adjusted to be consistent with the current system. Since we try to be fair, let's set both factors to be 2.718 for our updated renown system.

    So here is our new formula for Guild Account Size Bogus (GASB) = 2.718 * (2.718 * TSAA + 1000) / (TSAA * 1000)


    Example 1:
    Guild 1 has one beefy rep guild leader with one character that had collected 5,000,000 renown:
    C2. TSAA = 1
    C3. GASB = 2.718 * (2.718 * 1 + 1000) / (1 * 1000) = 2.725387524
    C4. TACR = 5,000,000
    C5. Guild Total Renown = GASB * TACR = 2.725387524 * 5,000,000 = 13626937.62 or guild level 64.


    Example 2:
    Guild 10 has ten very active accounts with ten characters who had each collected 5,000,000 renown:
    C2. TSAA = 10
    C3. GASB = 2.718 * (2.718 * 10 + 1000) / (10 * 1000) = 0.279187524
    C4. TACR = 5,000,000 * 10 = 50,000,000
    C5. Guild Total Renown = GASB * TACR = 0.279187524 * 50,000,000 = 13959376.2 guild level 65.

    Example 3:
    Guild 100 has one hundred very active accounts with 100 characters who had each collected 5,000,000 renown:
    C2. TSAA = 100
    C3. GASB = 2.718 * (2.718 * 100 + 1000) / (100 * 1000) = 0.034567524
    C4. TACR = 5,000,000 * 100 = 500,000,000
    C5. Guild Total Renown = GASB * TACR = 0.034567524 * 500,000,000 = 17283762 or guild level 70.


    Guild Level 70 requires 17,150,000 renown. Here are the renown numbers to reach guild level 70 based on different TSAA. A solo guild would need 6,292,683 renown. A guild with 1000 active accounts would only need 1,697,092 renown per character. If the numbers seem to low or high, we can adjust the factors in the GASB formula.

    Code:
    TSAA	GASB	        TACR            TACR/TSAA
    1	2.72538752	6,292,683	6,292,683
    2	1.36638752	12,551,344	6,275,672
    3	0.91338752	18,776,258	6,258,753
    4	0.68688752	24,967,698	6,241,924
    5	0.55098752	31,125,932	6,225,186
    6	0.46038752	37,251,227	6,208,538
    7	0.39567324	43,343,846	6,191,978
    8	0.34713752	49,404,051	6,175,506
    9	0.30938752	55,432,099	6,159,122
    10	0.27918752	61,428,246	6,142,825
    12	0.23388752	73,325,844	6,110,487
    14	0.20153038	85,098,832	6,078,488
    16	0.17726252	96,749,158	6,046,822
    18	0.15838752	108,278,730	6,015,485
    20	0.14328752	119,689,416	5,984,471
    25	0.11610752	147,707,913	5,908,317
    30	0.09798752	175,022,281	5,834,076
    35	0.08504467	201,658,736	5,761,678
    40	0.07533752	227,642,204	5,691,055
    45	0.06778752	252,996,407	5,622,142
    50	0.06174752	277,743,930	5,554,879
    55	0.05680571	301,906,292	5,489,205
    60	0.05268752	325,504,004	5,425,067
    65	0.04920291	348,556,630	5,362,410
    70	0.04621610	371,082,841	5,301,183
    75	0.04362752	393,100,466	5,241,340
    80	0.04136252	414,626,535	5,182,832
    85	0.03936399	435,677,328	5,125,616
    90	0.03758752	456,268,415	5,069,649
    95	0.03599805	476,414,691	5,014,891
    100	0.03456752	496,130,414	4,961,304
    110	0.03209661	534,324,260	4,857,493
    120	0.03003752	570,952,519	4,757,938
    130	0.02829522	606,109,521	4,662,381
    140	0.02680181	639,882,164	4,570,587
    150	0.02550752	672,350,637	4,482,338
    160	0.02437502	703,589,051	4,397,432
    170	0.02337576	733,666,008	4,315,682
    180	0.02248752	762,645,100	4,236,917
    190	0.02169279	790,585,363	4,160,976
    200	0.02097752	817,541,670	4,087,708
    220	0.01974207	868,703,255	3,948,651
    240	0.01871252	916,498,491	3,818,744
    260	0.01784137	961,249,044	3,697,112
    280	0.01709467	1,003,236,866	3,582,989
    300	0.01644752	1,042,710,137	3,475,700
    350	0.01515324	1,131,771,287	3,233,632
    400	0.01418252	1,209,234,689	3,023,087
    450	0.01342752	1,277,227,283	2,838,283
    500	0.01282352	1,337,385,886	2,674,772
    550	0.01232934	1,390,990,675	2,529,074
    600	0.01191752	1,439,057,308	2,398,429
    650	0.01156906	1,482,401,885	2,280,618
    700	0.01127038	1,521,687,668	2,173,840
    750	0.01101152	1,557,459,258	2,076,612
    800	0.01078502	1,590,167,996	1,987,710
    850	0.01058517	1,620,191,106	1,906,107
    900	0.01040752	1,647,846,308	1,830,940
    950	0.01024858	1,673,403,109	1,761,477
    1000	0.01010552	1,697,091,610	1,697,092

  8. #8
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    I would like to explain a little about C1 (the first change) on why decay is not needed. It is because decay already
    happens naturally. Players take breaks. People stopped playing. Extremely active players can quickly turn into extremely casuals because of RL changes. It is not fair to take renown away from players who are still playing or may come back some days.

  9. #9
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    Default RE: Boots, Leaving, and Recent Departures

    I think the intention of tracking the recent departures was to deter guilds from booting everyone without consequences. The current system also takes away more renown when members are kicked vs when members leave on good terms. The way recent departures are tracked/remembered by account is neat. I do not see a need for it in this sytem at the moment even though it could be handy to discourage some of the switching problems that MindCake had brought up.

    In addition to the guild being punished with recent departures, it does not feel fair to wipe away all the renown when a member is kicked or leaves the guild. On the other hand, the idea that a part of the renown is personal makes sense (brought up by others in the past and bartharok here http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=397680)

    Proposed change number 6:
    C6. Personal Renown . If a character leaves a guild for whatever reason, the character keeps 25% of the renown.


    Any obvious flaw with this change or the system? Or examples that would break it? Any interesting scenarios to test out with sample numbers?

  10. #10
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    Updated OP to add C6:
    C6. Personal Renown . If a character leaves a guild for whatever reasons, the character gets to keep 50% of the renown.


    The previous 25% seems a little low. While 50% is probably not ideal, it's probably the simplest change. Another idea could be to not remove any renown from the character, but apply it to any new guild gradually. For example, after you join a guild, the system applies 0.5% of your total renown per day so that after 200 days, 100% your total renown applies.

    If this system works, I have some ideas on how we can migrate to it in a consistent and 'fair' way. But it's too early for that.

    So far, there are not many feedbacks for improvements as compared an 'official' Let's TALK: Renown System thread.

  11. #11
    Community Member MindCake's Avatar
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    Hmm. Depending on what you want, this could actually be approaching viable. I only see one exploit-ish thing, and it still requires lots of work, and more importantly, teamwork and coordination, which are the values guilds should promote, so it's allright!

    So it seems a guild of about 100 hardcore and determined players, logging in every day, partying hard and earning ~10k renown every day, could hope to reach level 70 in about year and a half.

    Problem: there's a huge disincentive to recruiting. A guild of 100, recruiting the 101th player will lose renown, and with it possibly levels, unless the newcomer can provide about 78% of the current member's rep. It gets "better" as the guild size grows- by 500 we're down to 42%, by 1000 down to 27%.
    But to get a guild of that size to amount to anything, each and every member would need to be grinding rep, the dead weights would be discarded. To keep the other ones working, the leader would need some epic charisma... and a whole bureaucracy of officers to keep the thousands of follower logging in every day, earning tens of thousands of renown each... It's kind of scary, but only that kind of renown machine would have any interest in recruiting new players. If the numbers were growing sufficiently fast, the new members would pay their cost and begin supporting their guild after just a couple months of hard grinding.
    But if the numbers didn't grow fast enough... say they remained in 1000s after 2 years, the new player would need to provide half-a-year worth of rep to even apply. Unless the leader had epic epic charisma+ and/or some other incentives, to really make the applicants WORK for the permission to join the recruitment would dwindle further, eventually the members would start dropping due to real life if not anything else, and the whole thing would collapse under its own weight.

    Most if not all somewhat successful guilds would be groups of a handful of friends, playing at a similar rate. Each time one of the active players left, the guild would lose levels. As mentioned before, it'd be very difficult to recruit anyone new, so eventually the guild would become empty. Returning players would need to be kicked because they drag the guild back down (same as recruitment).

    Dunno, that's sorta grimdark, but kind of fair, so maybe that's ok? (I wouldn't want to be anywhere near it though.)


    Oh, and the exploit-ish thing:
    Get a couple dozen of friends from different time zones. Make a shared account, and make a character there a guild leader. Have the friends take turns playing it, grinding renown 24/7, till they gather that 6.3 mil.
    Kick everyone else. The guild rises to level 70ish. The leader buys all the shrines, then reinvites everyone. Repeat on ~bi-weekly basis to keep the shrines fresh.
    Lots of work, some book keeping, but still an order of magnitude less than getting a dozen-or-so accounts to 6.1 mil.
    Druids have a fundamental right to bear arms.

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  12. #12
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    lol it sounds like a horrid system worst than the current decay. I didn't realize that the recruiting disincentives could be that bad.

    Yes, the guild would lose when an active player with lots of renown leaves. But no one else would lose any renown.
    Since there is no decay, a returning player with lots of renown could actually help the guild unless the renowned player was kicked and lost 50% of it.

    That's a lot of work for the exploity guild to get the level 70 buffs. Their large augment slots won't work once everyone joins and the guild goes back to level 1.
    Or they could just play knowing that they will get to 70 in time and never lose anything to decay.

    Here are the numbers for the level 70 guild after I increased the large size bonus to 7.388

    New formula: Guild Account Size Bogus (GASB) = 2.718 * (2.718^2 * TSAA + 1000) / (TSAA * 1000)
    Notice that the needed rep really goes down much faster the more accounts we have now.

    Adding an account
    At 100 accounts, it's down to 57% from 78%
    At 300 accounts, it's 31%
    At 500 accounts, it's down to 21% from 42%
    At 999 accounts, it's down to 12% from 27%

    It's definitely harder to maintain large guilds, so it sort of make sense the numbers are lower with all the turnovers.
    But I don't know what's the fair percentages here. The only fair thing I can say is that as large guild lose
    members, their TSAA will adjust to the equivalent renown of other guilds with the lower TSAA and vice versa as
    guilds gain members.

    or can you exploit the low numbers with lots of accounts now?

    Code:
    TSAA    GASB	        TACR            TACR/TSAA
    1	2.73807929	6,263,515	6,263,515
    2	1.37907929	12,435,833	6,217,917
    3	0.92607929	18,518,933	6,172,978
    4	0.69957929	24,514,734	6,128,683
    5	0.56367929	30,425,102	6,085,020
    6	0.47307929	36,251,851	6,041,975
    7	0.40836500	41,996,743	5,999,535
    8	0.35982929	47,661,490	5,957,686
    9	0.32207929	53,247,758	5,916,418
    10	0.29187929	58,757,166	5,875,717
    12	0.24657929	69,551,664	5,795,972
    14	0.21422215	80,057,082	5,718,363
    16	0.18995429	90,284,878	5,642,805
    18	0.17107929	100,245,915	5,569,218
    20	0.15597929	109,950,494	5,497,525
    25	0.12879929	133,152,908	5,326,116
    30	0.11067929	154,952,204	5,165,073
    35	0.09773643	175,471,924	5,013,484
    40	0.08802929	194,821,519	4,870,538
    45	0.08047929	213,098,301	4,735,518
    50	0.07443929	230,389,085	4,607,782
    55	0.06949747	246,771,566	4,486,756
    60	0.06537929	262,315,482	4,371,925
    65	0.06189467	277,083,611	4,262,825
    70	0.05890786	291,132,618	4,159,037
    75	0.05631929	304,513,781	4,060,184
    80	0.05405429	317,273,614	3,965,920
    85	0.05205576	329,454,411	3,875,934
    90	0.05027929	341,094,712	3,789,941
    99	0.04753384	360,795,626	3,644,400
    100	0.04725929	362,891,612	3,628,916
    101	0.04699018	364,969,862	3,613,563
    111	0.04456578	384,824,438	3,466,887
    121	0.04254210	403,130,074	3,331,654
    131	0.04082738	420,061,224	3,206,574
    141	0.03935589	435,767,092	3,090,547
    151	0.03807929	450,376,042	2,982,623
    161	0.03696128	463,999,110	2,881,982
    171	0.03597403	476,732,837	2,787,911
    181	0.03509586	488,661,559	2,699,788
    191	0.03430966	499,859,271	2,617,064
    220	0.03243384	528,768,788	2,403,494
    240	0.03140429	546,103,729	2,275,432
    260	0.03053314	561,684,846	2,160,326
    299	0.02916959	587,941,047	1,966,358
    300	0.02913929	588,552,427	1,961,841
    301	0.02910919	589,161,006	1,957,346
    400	0.02687429	638,156,389	1,595,391
    450	0.02611929	656,602,834	1,459,117
    500	0.02551529	672,145,989	1,344,292
    501	0.02550444	672,431,939	1,342,180
    600	0.02460929	696,891,289	1,161,485
    650	0.02426083	706,900,832	1,087,540
    700	0.02396215	715,712,149	1,022,446
    750	0.02370329	723,528,246	964,704
    800	0.02347679	730,508,721	913,136
    850	0.02327694	736,780,779	866,801
    900	0.02309929	742,447,055	824,941
    999	0.02280001	752,192,621	752,946
    1000	0.02279729	752,282,391	752,282
    Last edited by Faxe; 11-16-2012 at 03:21 AM.

  13. #13
    Community Member MindCake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faxe View Post
    But no one else would lose any renown.
    Since there is no decay, a returning player with lots of renown could actually help the guild
    Not really...
    Say 10 people, 6mil renown each. One leaves for 3 or so months.
    Meanwhile the others grind up to 7 mil each, so now they have ~20mil 290k renown, level 74 ftw.
    The old guy returns, now they have ~20mil 139k, level 73.

    Assuming they all earn renown at the same rate, they'd need to get some 7.5 mil each before the returning player stopped being a liability.
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  14. #14
    Community Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindCake View Post
    Not really...
    Say 10 people, 6mil renown each. One leaves for 3 or so months.
    Meanwhile the others grind up to 7 mil each, so now they have ~20mil 290k renown, level 74 ftw.
    The old guy returns, now they have ~20mil 139k, level 73.

    Assuming they all earn renown at the same rate, they'd need to get some 7.5 mil each before the returning player stopped being a liability.
    Nice example. There would be no change when the old guy returns if we set the large size bonus to 16.667 although it will inflate the guild level a little.

    Code:
    GASB = 2.718 * (16.667 * TSAA + 1000) / (TSAA * 1000)
    
    TSAA	GASB	        TACR	        TACR/TSAA	
    1	2.76330091	6,206,345	6,206,345	
    2	1.40430091	12,212,482	6,106,241	
    3	0.95130091	18,027,945	6,009,315	
    4	0.72480091	23,661,670	5,915,418	
    5	0.58890091	29,122,047	5,824,409	
    6	0.49830091	34,416,955	5,736,159	
    7	0.43358662	39,553,804	5,650,543	
    8	0.38505091	44,539,565	5,567,446	
    9	0.34730091	49,380,810	5,486,757	
    10	0.31710091	54,083,731	5,408,373	
    11	0.29239182	58,654,173	5,332,198
    with 9 members at 7mil the guild would have 21879957 (lvl 75).
    with 9 members at 7mil + 1 returning at 6 mil, the guild would have 21879963 (lvl 75 still).


    So let's move the large size bonus way up to 20.08 to see how things go.

    Again, here are the numbers for the level 70 guild after I increased the large size bonus to 20.08

    New formula: Guild Account Size Bogus (GASB) = 2.718 * (2.718^3 * TSAA + 1000) / (TSAA * 1000)

    Adding an account
    At 100 accounts, it's down to 33%
    At 300 accounts, it's 14%
    At 500 accounts, it's down to 9%
    At 999 accounts, it's down to 4%
    Code:
    GASB = 2.718 * (20.08 * TSAA + 1000) / (TSAA * 1000)
    
    TSAA	GASB	        TACR	        TACR/TSAA
    1	2.77257551	6,185,584	6,185,584
    2	1.41357551	12,132,355	6,066,178
    3	0.96057551	17,853,880	5,951,293
    4	0.73407551	23,362,719	5,840,680
    5	0.59817551	28,670,515	5,734,103
    6	0.50757551	33,788,076	5,631,346
    7	0.44286123	38,725,449	5,532,207
    8	0.39432551	43,491,987	5,436,498
    9	0.35657551	48,096,404	5,344,045
    10	0.32637551	52,546,835	5,254,683
    11	0.30166642	56,850,875	5,168,261
    14	0.24871837	68,953,492	4,925,249
    16	0.22445051	76,408,826	4,775,552
    18	0.20557551	83,424,334	4,634,685
    20	0.19047551	90,037,821	4,501,891
    25	0.16329551	105,024,320	4,200,973
    30	0.14517551	118,132,872	3,937,762
    35	0.13223265	129,695,650	3,705,590
    40	0.12252551	139,970,851	3,499,271
    45	0.11497551	149,162,199	3,314,716
    50	0.10893551	157,432,594	3,148,652
    55	0.10399369	164,913,848	2,998,434
    60	0.09987551	171,713,765	2,861,896
    65	0.09639090	177,921,368	2,737,252
    70	0.09340408	183,610,819	2,623,012
    75	0.09081551	188,844,393	2,517,925
    80	0.08855051	193,674,772	2,420,935
    85	0.08655198	198,146,821	2,331,139
    90	0.08477551	202,298,987	2,247,767
    99	0.08203006	209,069,709	2,111,815
    100	0.08175551	209,771,792	2,097,718
    101	0.08148640	210,464,563	2,083,808
    111	0.07906200	216,918,375	1,954,220
    121	0.07703832	222,616,483	1,839,806
    131	0.07532360	227,684,277	1,738,048
    141	0.07385211	232,220,864	1,646,956
    151	0.07257551	236,305,605	1,564,938
    161	0.07145750	240,002,804	1,490,701
    171	0.07047025	243,365,116	1,423,188
    181	0.06959209	246,436,069	1,361,525
    191	0.06880588	249,251,963	1,304,984
    220	0.06693006	256,237,645	1,164,717
    240	0.06590051	260,240,775	1,084,337
    260	0.06502936	263,727,043	1,014,335
    299	0.06366581	269,375,344	900,921
    300	0.06363551	269,503,612	898,345
    301	0.06360541	269,631,147	895,785
    400	0.06137051	279,450,175	698,625
    450	0.06061551	282,930,883	628,735
    500	0.06001151	285,778,507	571,557
    501	0.06000066	285,830,187	570,519
    600	0.05910551	290,159,069	483,598
    650	0.05875705	291,879,871	449,046
    700	0.05845837	293,371,173	419,102
    750	0.05819951	294,676,016	392,901
    800	0.05797301	295,827,313	369,784
    850	0.05777316	296,850,659	349,236
    900	0.05759551	297,766,262	330,851
    999	0.05729623	299,321,605	299,621
    1000	0.05729351	299,335,819	299,336
    So now our example guild
    with 9 members at 7mil the guild would have 22,464,257 (or level 76 yay!).
    with 9 members at 7mil + 1 returning at 6mil, the guild would have 22,519,910 (lvl 76 still, but 55k more renown, yay! more returning players!)

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