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  1. #21
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gphysalis View Post
    While this may be true for most monsters, there are a significant number of monsters that can be held, that can't be instakilled.

    1. Any monster with death ward (which includes a lot of cleric type enemies)
    True.
    2. Epic Hard+ orange named monsters
    Also true, but surely the weapon of choice here is negative leveling, and after a few of those any CC will work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314
    (and obviously, carry the gear to support all of those different areas; just because you're not specifically an instakill wizard doesn't mean you shouldn't have a +2 necromancy DC item).
    The Adamantine Dragon Cloak from Eveningstar gives +2 to every school. It's a bit of a grind and uses ingredients that due to a hilariously stupid decision are BtC, but it's still ridiculously good for wizards.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inouk
    The versatility of being able to CC just as well (sure, I have to use mana... so?), but kill, nuke, and solo extremely effectively made me prefer PM by a wide margin.
    The thing is, a Necro/Conj AM has identical professional bonuses to Necro DC, and is at most 1 behind if the PM is a Drow. There's no difference at all in nuking. Difference in soloing is not clear cut: if I can cast Web and Ice Storm for the same SP that you can cast Web or Ice Storm with, surely I am better off, no?

    Taking AM 5 and getting a ton of SLAs would cost via opportunity in other areas, but you don't have to do that any more than you have to take Augment Summoning and all the pets in PM.

  2. #22
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    Default A different point of view

    My main toon is a CC caster always has been, always will be. I hardly use web at all, and I don't even have heighten. I am an AM but I don't use any SLAs, I never took any via the enhancments. I also have over 3,700 sp when I am on my main Epic Destiny.

    I have a spell pen of 50 and my mass hold DC is about 53 (again when I am on my main ED) That may change when I am done with all ED's not sure if my math is 100% correct but that is just about right. I cast 4 spells most frequently, Mass hold monster, mass hold person (only when it applies and MHM is on cool down) the level 5 hold monster spell and otto's irresistable. I will also drop a disco ball when I know it is needed.

    I know that this is probably very different from everything that you have probably read in these comments as it pretty much goes against what is considered conventional CC in DDO, but that is how I do it. I just wanted to say that there are different ways to do CC and it isn't cut and dry. Like everything else in DDO there are different ways to do similar things. To each his own. Just keep that in mind.

    On that note, you asked, "Is it worth it?" I cannot tell you how many times I get into a group and I hear somebody say, "Wow. Nice holds man, this is making this quest super easy." Yes I would say it is worth it. Just remember that when you get into a group with the FVS whos combat tatics are to drop blade barriers and jump around like a kangaroo, they will not like your holds as much as the barbarian will.
    Main toon Gromphia I have others but that is really the only one I play

  3. #23
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sireric View Post
    My main toon is a CC caster always has been, always will be. I hardly use web at all, and I don't even have heighten.
    What the heck do you spend a feat on that isn't Heighten?

  4. #24
    Community Member akash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sireric View Post
    I have a spell pen of 50 and my mass hold DC is about 53 (again when I am on my main ED) That may change when I am done with all ED's not sure if my math is 100% correct but that is just about right. I cast 4 spells most frequently, Mass hold monster, mass hold person (only when it applies and MHM is on cool down) the level 5 hold monster spell and otto's irresistable. I will also drop a disco ball when I know it is needed.
    You are good, I have played with you few times if I can remember it correctly but these numbers are impossible to get for a first lifer even with EDs.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    True.Also true, but surely the weapon of choice here is negative leveling, and after a few of those any CC will work.The Adamantine Dragon Cloak from Eveningstar gives +2 to every school. It's a bit of a grind and uses ingredients that due to a hilariously stupid decision are BtC, but it's still ridiculously good for wizards.The thing is, a Necro/Conj AM has identical professional bonuses to Necro DC, and is at most 1 behind if the PM is a Drow. There's no difference at all in nuking. Difference in soloing is not clear cut: if I can cast Web and Ice Storm for the same SP that you can cast Web or Ice Storm with, surely I am better off, no?

    Taking AM 5 and getting a ton of SLAs would cost via opportunity in other areas, but you don't have to do that any more than you have to take Augment Summoning and all the pets in PM.
    Actually, assuming all else is equal (gear, past lives, feats, etc) drow gets +1 for stat (+2int), and lich form gets another +1 from stat (+2int +4con), which means that drow PM is equal to a WF AM in his primary school, +1 in the AM secondary school, and +2 in all other schools for DCs. In theory PM should be another +1 ahead on necro DCs for lich form but this doesn't appear to be stacking/working properly (my enchant and necro DCs are the same in form). Mostly I just prefer the almost infinite, almost free healing of PM when you combine mabar robes, demon bracers, and death aura, and the fact that when it gets rough I don't have to choose between healing or killing since my healing is almost all passive. Because my PM can stand in and tank MUCH better than my WF AM I get a ton of SP back from torc and con-ops when soloing, so SP is never a problem. And yeah, my PM only invested in web (and grease since you need it to get to web) and hypno SLAs and my PM only has lich form, no summons.

    Bottom line both are very good, but the reasons above skew toward PM IMO (if you are geared, without robes/torc/bracers/con-ops I may change my mind).

  6. #26
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    wizard was mentioned most in this thread .. bard a little bit.. and this thread so far has neglected druids. Earthquake is one of the best CC's in the game. When I got around to running my epics in evening star for favor I joined a group who was looking for CC's, they asked if a druid can CC. By the time we were done the guy who put up the LFM said " I'll never again say druids can't cc". While not CCing there's a fair bit of damage you can do, not to mention the healing.

    So, if you are considering a new CC toon, don't discount druids in your list.
    Thelanis: Anihsod ( drood ), Dexlorum ( nannybot ), Kiriagi ( thief ), Galrisian ( paladerp ) Hirp Dirp ( bard )

  7. #27
    Community Member akash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anihsod View Post
    wizard was mentioned most in this thread .. bard a little bit.. and this thread so far has neglected druids. Earthquake is one of the best CC's in the game. When I got around to running my epics in evening star for favor I joined a group who was looking for CC's, they asked if a druid can CC. By the time we were done the guy who put up the LFM said " I'll never again say druids can't cc". While not CCing there's a fair bit of damage you can do, not to mention the healing.

    So, if you are considering a new CC toon, don't discount druids in your list.
    Contrary to popular believes, almost all classes can do a little bit of CC that includes tactical melee builds, divine casters, rangers and all other types of toons. Druids are counted as very good support characters, and they can help balance the group but they are not considered as full-time CC casters, because unlike Arcanes they are lacking wide range of CC spells. However, if a group waits for too long and fails to recruit a specialized CC it's better to take a high DC Druid caster rather than waiting for too long. That reminds me one day all doctors (clerics+fvs) were on strike and I was unable to find a specialized healer for my epic hard Chrono raid, I asked the only druid in the group whether he can solo heal the group, he agreed, we started the raid stick together, and we were fine.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by sireric View Post
    I have a spell pen of 50 and my mass hold DC is about 53 (again when I am on my main ED)
    Quote Originally Posted by akash View Post
    these numbers are impossible to get for a first lifer even with EDs.
    Nah, they're not.

    I think a well-geared first-lifer Wizzy who built for it could hit...56 Spell Pen and 58 DC, I think, for their Enchantment spells. I might be low by 1 or 2 points if I didn't think of something.

    50sp/53dc isn't pushing into unreasonable or past-life-required range at all.

  9. #29
    Community Member ristretto93's Avatar
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    Thanks again everyone for the advice. It looks like CC is a valid lifestyle in DDO, thankfully.

    There is so much info here that I can only put a little to use at a time, but wow - great thread for reference while I try a couple different approaches. An awful lot to think about.

    Right now I am only lvl 7 Wiz on a new server so I don't embarrass myself to anyone I know by how poorly I still play casters Archmage...this first approach will be an AM enchant/conj. to get the hang of the most common approaches. I will get experimental later on, and I will definitely want to try a bard.

    What can I say? So much knowledge out there I want to try to apply...so little time. I will update gradually I suppose and add my own opinions on how things are working - and how different people Im grouped with work with a CC character, which Im already finding to be a mixed bag.
    Last edited by ristretto93; 11-09-2012 at 08:48 AM.
    Originally from Thelanis, now on...
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  10. #30
    Community Member akash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Nah, they're not.

    I think a well-geared first-lifer Wizzy who built for it could hit...56 Spell Pen
    I would be very glad if you can break down how a first life wizzy can reach 56 spell penetration. It will be an immense help for me in epic elite settings. Thank you in advance.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by akash View Post
    I would be very glad if you can break down how a first life wizzy can reach 56 spell penetration. It will be an immense help for me in epic elite settings. Thank you in advance.
    20 base levels
    5 ED levels
    8 feats
    3 class enhancements
    4 race enhancements (Elf)
    3 Greater Spell Pen item
    2 Arcane Augmentation item
    3 ED (Magister Piercing)
    3 twist (Draconic Piercing)
    2 twist (Fatesinger Echoes of the Ancesters: Magister)
    3 ED, 1 school only (Magister Master of <school>)
    --
    56 for chosen school, 53 for everything else

    Note you need to be an Elf for these numbers, subtract 4 if you're any other race. (Which still leaves 52 for one school, 49 for the rest of the schools.)

  12. #32
    Community Member akash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    20 base levels
    5 ED levels
    8 feats
    3 class enhancements
    4 race enhancements (Elf)
    3 Greater Spell Pen item
    2 Arcane Augmentation item
    3 ED (Magister Piercing)
    3 twist (Draconic Piercing)
    2 twist (Fatesinger Echoes of the Ancesters: Magister)
    3 ED, 1 school only (Magister Master of <school>)
    --
    56 for chosen school, 53 for everything else

    Note you need to be an Elf for these numbers, subtract 4 if you're any other race. (Which still leaves 52 for one school, 49 for the rest of the schools.)

    +1 Thank you very much for the nice explanations.

  13. #33
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inouk View Post
    Actually, assuming all else is equal (gear, past lives, feats, etc) drow gets +1 for stat (+2int), and lich form gets another +1 from stat (+2int +4con), which means that drow PM is equal to a WF AM in his primary school, +1 in the AM secondary school, and +2 in all other schools for DCs. In theory PM should be another +1 ahead on necro DCs for lich form but this doesn't appear to be stacking/working properly (my enchant and necro DCs are the same in form). Mostly I just prefer the almost infinite, almost free healing of PM when you combine mabar robes, demon bracers, and death aura, and the fact that when it gets rough I don't have to choose between healing or killing since my healing is almost all passive. Because my PM can stand in and tank MUCH better than my WF AM I get a ton of SP back from torc and con-ops when soloing, so SP is never a problem. And yeah, my PM only invested in web (and grease since you need it to get to web) and hypno SLAs and my PM only has lich form, no summons.

    Bottom line both are very good, but the reasons above skew toward PM IMO (if you are geared, without robes/torc/bracers/con-ops I may change my mind).
    It's true that PMs have a lot of synergistic gear that brings in the HP, but AM has options there too, such as the Cannith Artificer Ring with its Reconstruct guard (and cheap Archmagi and augment slots to boot). And while no one can argue that casting Reconstruct has an opportunity cost, surely we always Quicken, so our costs are pretty minimal.

    We can certainly agree that both are (at least!) very good, though.

  14. #34
    Community Member JasonJi72's Avatar
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    I have a problem. I cannot get into playing warforged, and believe me, I have tried. It probably stems from being an old school dnd fan, but I just can't get into playing a robot/golem type character in a dnd setting. My other problem is that I really don't like playing a palemaster that much, and I really don't like how all the 'fleshy types' are pigeon-holed into playing palemasters by the community.

    My favorite wizard was a halfling before the fix/nerf to their dragonmark ability. They used to be able to use cure wands and heal scrolls if they had the dragonmarks. I never considered this an exploit, because it cost 3 feats and significant ap, and I thought it was nice to have a self healing option besides a robot. At that time necro's were considered borked, and epics had their 'blanket immunities'. I have tried several times to play him again, and I even respeced him into a palemaster, but I can't help but miss the way he used to play, and I always end up shelving him again. Currently, I am waiting for the enhancement changes to come out, so I can play him again.

    Since I really want to play a wizard again, and I think some of the problem is that it is harder to jump into playing an arcane that has been on the shelf, I started another wizard. I have played other casters in permadeath and on other servers, but never got one all the way up. I still miss the way my halfling used to play.

    Having played a lot of other characters, I understand how sometimes wizards can truly frustrate you. I was playing one of the druid challenges on an epic moncher, when my bard buddy kept charming everything right when I triggered manyshot or 10kstars. I kept trying to tell him that the charms would wear off, and I would have killed them in seconds anyway, but... oh well. The other thing that frustrates me is when necros waste their sp fingering the stunned mob that my monk only needed a strike or two to kill, and then not having sp later when we needed it.

    Using the right spell at the right time for the group is not always finger of death or charm.

    Since I want to make something 'outside the box' anyway, I chose to make an elven archmage. I also really like evasion, getting traps, and needed to add self healing to my unorthodox character, so I decided to splash 2 rogue. Yeah, yeah, I know; not epic elite worthy, but I am not building it for epic elite on a first life. I am building it to have fun, get my wizard past life, and run some epics before I TR it.

    Originally, I thought about going enchant and necro. That way I could switch to necromancer later if I felt I truly needed to. Currently, I am considering taking a secondary focus in conjuration instead. I have toyed with the idea of going with evoker archmage with a shiradi destiny, but that would probably be better as a warforged, and would require a lot of destiny grinding. Perhaps I would be better off as a PM in the end, but interestingly enough, it wasn't really the 'free' web that was making me consider this, it was all of the searing lights and divine punishment spells I have encountered fighting the drow that made me re-consider my plan.

    Since I will still have my 'free' LR, I thought I would try making an enchanter/webber first. Here is what I have so far, and what my plan is:

    Jynsyn. Elven 18wizard/2rogue first lifer, but with decent pass down gear since it is on my main server (Thelanis).

    Con 14
    Int 18 (all level ups here)
    Cha 14
    (nothing else really matters)

    1. R1 Toughness
    2. W1 Empower
    3. W2 SF UMD (swap later for Quicken)
    4. W3
    5. W4
    6. W5 Mental toughness, SF Enchantment
    7. W6
    8. W7 (My current level)
    9. R2 Insightful Relexes (evasion woo hoo!)
    10. W8
    11. W9
    12. W10 SF Conjuration, Heighten
    13. W11
    14. W12
    15. W13 Spell Penetration
    16. W14
    17. W15 G. Spell Penetration
    18. W16 GSF Enchantment
    19. W17
    20. W18

    Am I totally doomed? Will this work on a first life for what I have in mind? Suggestions?

    Regarding Druids: Yeah, I was playing my 'gimp' caster druid (who can heal quite well btw) in epics, and people were saying, "is that you doing all the crowd control?" I said, "yep, wolf howl and earthquake do actually work."
    Jyn... Kender... Thelanis

    *Insert clever comment here*

  15. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    The problem with Spellsingers and casting-focused Virtuoso bards is they don't have the wizard's extra feats and DC-increasing enhancements. You NEED past lives to be truly useful in end-game content as a bard. That being said, a good player -- along with wise choices in epic destinies, feats, and past lives -- can be a phenomenal crowd controller. Thespellsing on Argo server is proof of this, he's arguably the best spellsinger on the server, and better than most wizards.

    Bards can be great CC, they just need to work harder than wizards to achieve it.
    If DC was the only thing to look at in the package the problem would be with wizards still chasing DC's at epic levels available to bards in their mid-teen levels. Bard song DC's squash wizard spell DC's.

    Immunities and specific reliance on enchantments compared to the wizard spell selection, and break-on-hit restrictions forcing a choice between AoE damage and CC tend to be much more impacting.

  16. #36
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    If DC was the only thing to look at in the package the problem would be with wizards still chasing DC's at epic levels available to bards in their mid-teen levels. Bard song DC's squash wizard spell DC's.

    Immunities and specific reliance on enchantments compared to the wizard spell selection, and break-on-hit restrictions forcing a choice between AoE damage and CC tend to be much more impacting.
    Nobody likes a smartass.

    And wizards have mass hold spells, which increases the damage dealt to CC'd mobs by any dps in the party. Bards have fascinate, which can have very high DC's, but the fact is, it's not practical. Fascinated mobs can be awakened if they take damage, and with the amount of AoE's being cast about, it limits what other members of your party can do. A wizard can cast mass hold or web and walk away without a second glance, not worrying about their CC'd mobs getting hit. Bards only have a single target hold and have to work harder to get the DC's a wizard can achieve.

    Bards also lack web, having no reliable CC against undead unless you get music of the dead.

    Bards are by no means weak CC, but wizards can be much more versatile with spells than bards are with songs.

  17. #37
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    On trash mobs good crowd control is useful because it gives melee something to do other than wait until the boss fight. Unless you are in a hurry trying to set some speed record for completion or really pushing to maximize XP/minute then you can make a lot of friends simply by tossing good crowd control and letting the melees have fun.

    The advice on spell DC vs saving throws and spell penetration is correct. My only caveat would be that it pays to know what the target numbers are. If you are planning on epic elite you absolutely want the maximum in every possible way. If you are planning on epic hard you may well find that you can get by with significantly less.

    This might influence tome planning, gear selection, feat and enhancement selections, decisions on splash v no splash or even how to distribute your stats. Those choices should be made with your ultimate end game in mind.

  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    Nobody likes a smartass.

    And wizards have mass hold spells, which increases the damage dealt to CC'd mobs by any dps in the party. Bards have fascinate, which can have very high DC's, but the fact is, it's not practical. Fascinated mobs can be awakened if they take damage, and with the amount of AoE's being cast about, it limits what other members of your party can do. A wizard can cast mass hold or web and walk away without a second glance, not worrying about their CC'd mobs getting hit. Bards only have a single target hold and have to work harder to get the DC's a wizard can achieve.

    Bards also lack web, having no reliable CC against undead unless you get music of the dead.

    Bards are by no means weak CC, but wizards can be much more versatile with spells than bards are with songs.
    Just having a bard increases damage dealt with no save required as well and the single target hold. When CC is needed fascinating and pulling single targets out is effective. When you state practicality you might want to reread what you quoted because it's the same thing I pointed out.

    "Immunities and specific reliance on enchantments compared to the wizard spell selection, and break-on-hit restrictions forcing a choice between AoE damage and CC tend to be much more impacting."

    Lacking web doesn't stop me from using music of the dead or halt undead scrolls. The no save on non-intelligent undead can be useful too. Even something like glitterdust or solid fog clickies and kiting can be used to for undead crowd control if really needed.

    You mentioned DC's and bards are on par with DC's with most casters and potentially about 2 behind on a wizard who also focuses on enchantments. Those 2 DC's on spells are still no match for fascinate when the DC's really matter and other times it they can be meaningless when the mobs only save on a 20 on the bard's DC's; if the target needs a 20 on a 48 DC the 50 DC still needs that same 20. What matters more is the same thing we agreed on; spell selection and break-on-hit restrictions.

    I agree wizards are better at crowd control. I was disagreeing that it was the spells DC's. I also disagreed on how hard it is to achieve it because it's really, really easy to use a song from the fascinate family to neutralize rooms of trash mobs.

    The spells take the same 2 feats the wizards take and the capstone and the same grind for gear wizards grind. The bonus feats a wizard gets doesn't help with that because they can still only spend the same number of feats but the bard's only school he's really focusing in is enchantment while the wizard uses his bonus feats to get comparable DC's in other schools. If a person takes the same feats, grinds the same gear, and takes a capstone one is not harder than the other. The bard gets the free bonus to spell penetration with the capstone and for a wizard to get that he would need to go elf and give up the racial bonus to caster stat and a potential spell DC lowering that gap from 2 to 1 on a PM and eliminating self healing on an AM.

    For something not practical, fascinate is a pretty common request. The AoE is huge, the DC's are insane, the duration is fantastic. Break-on-hit is the only thing that prevents it from completely dominating the game.

    I also trust bards to be capable of CC when they say they can. I don't trust wizards to heal the group and if we consider the bard CC adequate then the extra from the wizard doesn't necessarily outweigh party healing. What I want from the wizard is CC and the ability to do direct burst damage and the tactical advantage that comes with long range instant killing abilities. I couldn't care less if both cast a disco ball and the wizards stops one more while the bard would need to pop off a single target on that one; I do care that disco ball doesn't work on all enemies and the wizard can just swap out to a better spell.

    DC's are not the issue with bards, which is something you put forth; the issue is the selection of abilities and how they interact with portions of the game and other player abilities. Even then bards usually have something with which to effect crowd control.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    It's true that PMs have a lot of synergistic gear that brings in the HP, but AM has options there too, such as the Cannith Artificer Ring with its Reconstruct guard (and cheap Archmagi and augment slots to boot). And while no one can argue that casting Reconstruct has an opportunity cost, surely we always Quicken, so our costs are pretty minimal.

    We can certainly agree that both are (at least!) very good, though.
    Yeah, the Ring of the Artificer is great, I wear it on my WF AM and did on my WF Fighter (recently TR'd to a fleshy ranger). And yes, we can agree both are great =)

  20. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    The problem with Spellsingers and casting-focused Virtuoso bards is they don't have the wizard's extra feats and DC-increasing enhancements. You NEED past lives to be truly useful in end-game content as a bard. That being said, a good player -- along with wise choices in epic destinies, feats, and past lives -- can be a phenomenal crowd controller. Thespellsing on Argo server is proof of this, he's arguably the best spellsinger on the server, and better than most wizards.

    Bards can be great CC, they just need to work harder than wizards to achieve it.
    HOLY ****! you just made my day. (This is Thespellsing, tho I changed my name to TheMinstrel) And Aashrym I agree, fasinate/music of the dead kick major tushy, took me some time to come to that realization. And also on this debate on Bard Fasinate vs. Wizzy DC, well I gots em both, 54 DC Enchantment, and a 73 Preform. Spellpen is gimpy however, its only at a +54...(I could get it to a +62 i belive from what ive calculated). You get a bard with those stats, and s/he is doing all the cc eva!!! (I know, ive done all but the raid EElite as mainlining CC).

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