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  1. #21
    Hero Gkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jambajuicey View Post
    this is the problem in that motu is 'not' an update.. its an expansion
    Which they called an update until they decided they wanted to charge VIPs for it.

    Care to define the difference between an update and an expansion in a clear and concise way?

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Further doom would be announcing that they will do as I suggest in 3-6 months from now. I care more about the larger picture for DDO as in keeping it up and running and going. The MOTU is the best update that DDO has released in about 2 years or so. All of the other updates are totally substandard in comparison. If somebody joins the game and goes VIP I would rather keep that person playing then put them in a cost benefit situation where they think DDO is mediocre to poor game and do not want to pony up money on the MOTU so they never get a chance to try out the MOTU which might have got them hooked on the game.

    I am very disappointed in the last two updates after the MOTU. I enjoyed the 5 quests this time more then the update 15 quests which I guess is something, but a really sad update after 3 months wait.
    If they decide that DDO is a mediocre to poor game, they are going to make that decision well before they could ever try out the expansion's content. Personally, I'm accustomed to having to purchase expansions in addition to paying my monthly subscription, having played EverQuest for years. The fact that Turbine chooses to give me free access to updates because I pay a monthly subscription? Icing on my cake. Thank you very much, Turbine. My cost to play this game and access all new content for free (except the expansion) is far lower than my cost of playing EverQuest ever was. My subscription to this game costs me 5$/month less than my subscription to EverQuest did (120$/year vs. 180$/year for EQ).

    As far as "all of the other updates are totally substandard in comparison" goes, you cannot compare an update to an expansion. The expansion added at least as much content as the original core game! Updates only add 4 or 5 quests and sometimes an explorer area. They're apples and oranges and any attempt to compare them will always fail.

  3. #23
    Hero JOTMON's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gkar View Post
    Which they called an update until they decided they wanted to charge VIPs for it.

    Care to define the difference between an update and an expansion in a clear and concise way?

    An expansion should be like buying a new game, especially considering most of us paid as much for the expansion as a new game would cost. I would expect to see a sizable amount of content and a tangent growth development of the game with the purchase of the expansion.

    What we got was a beta and a work in progress.




    ~Straight from Turbine....~

    What is a DDO VIP?

    Sounds important, right? Well, it is. DDO VIPs are players who want unlimited access to all of the content DDO has to offer. This newly optional subscription program also allows its gamers to enjoy a number of other exclusive benefits, such as a monthly grant of Turbine Points, priority access to servers, additional character slots, a shared bank slot, and much more.
    •Unlimited free access to all existing quest packs


    Then there was .. Turbine Marketing: "we need more cashflow, how do we get more money from the existing player base?

    Answer... Change the VIP agreement retroactively...

    •Unlimited free access to all existing quest packs (please note that Menace of the Underdark is an Expansion Pack and is not included in a VIP subscription)
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  4. #24
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    The expansion brought so much to the game that people seem to forget about. It's not the quests and raids. It's gear, mechanics, monsters, destinies, and so much more. DDO is a new game since MotU. That took an enormous amount of work, and will require an enourmous amount of maintenance going forward.
    Every update since MotU has not just been simple few quests + raid. It's had to build on what MotU started. Look at Druid's Deep for example. Isn't there gear in there that adds/builds on the Druid Commendations? That didn't just 'happen'.
    I still love the game, and I'm GLAD they decided to do this, if it helps to keep the game growing.
    I have an entertainment budget. I spend 99% of my entertainment time in DDO. I have no problem spending 99% of my entertainment budget on the game. Even with the VIP sub, paying extra for all-encompasing, game changing, gigantic expansions like this is GREAT deal.
    And if they do another paid expansion next year, I'll buy that too.
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  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    The expansion brought so much to the game that people seem to forget about. It's not the quests and raids. It's gear, mechanics, monsters, destinies, and so much more. DDO is a new game since MotU. That took an enormous amount of work, and will require an enourmous amount of maintenance going forward.
    Every update since MotU has not just been simple few quests + raid. It's had to build on what MotU started. Look at Druid's Deep for example. Isn't there gear in there that adds/builds on the Druid Commendations? That didn't just 'happen'.
    I still love the game, and I'm GLAD they decided to do this, if it helps to keep the game growing.
    I have an entertainment budget. I spend 99% of my entertainment time in DDO. I have no problem spending 99% of my entertainment budget on the game. Even with the VIP sub, paying extra for all-encompasing, game changing, gigantic expansions like this is GREAT deal.
    And if they do another paid expansion next year, I'll buy that too.
    The expansion took a lot away from the game as well.
    ED's make TRing a much less viable option except for those of us who prefer to earlier level content to anything in the 20+ range. A 1st life with ED's can be just as strong as any multiple TR while spending 1/100th or less of the time required to get there.

    The "new gear" is way OP on the random loot gen, causing even high level content such as ToD rings to be considered obsolete. Raid gear should NEVER be made obsolete by RANDOM loot 2-6 levels above it. As a result, you rarely see the 'old' end game raids being run anymore because the loot just isn't worth it to so many people now.

    As far as the way Turbine cheated VIP, I would have had *NO* problem with ED's not being provided as part of the VIP sub...but before the so-called 'expansion', the VIP sub said *ALL* quest packs. That word is not ambiguous. ALL quest packs. That should have included the MoTU packs as well.
    Every single DDO update is an expansion. People have tried to compare the DDO "expansion" to other MMOs...those other MMOs might have updates, updates that do not add to the game but just tweak existing content like DDO updates do. Those others have expansions, those expansions are where all new content comes from. If DDO operated in this manner, it might be different...but it does not.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    Most of eveningstar is encompassed by the fancy title of "Expansion".
    They even reworded the Turbine agreement to say VIP are entitled access to everything ....except Expansions...
    So now VIP's have to dig deeper into the wallets to pay extra for access to new content.
    I believe Expansions were always going to be seperate purchases... You can still search the web and find the ads for the expansion that included the Menachturan Desert, before they decided not to charge for it and made it a Mod (was it mod 3 or 4?) back in '07.

    As far as I can tell there has been no rewording, just clarification.
    Last edited by Hambo; 11-15-2012 at 12:16 PM.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gkar View Post
    Maybe the concept of free is lost on you.
    i have been on ddo since 2010. free. wow. where to begin. i know i paid to play. but i did not pay for updates, expantions, and this low progress. i know how much i pay, and we deserve better than to be pushed aside everytime there is a glitch. and why can't i get a programmer to come out and fix the problem. I'm sorry, but this is not Gary Gygax's vision. This is not a game for Millionaires who have nothing better to do. This is a family oriented game filled with all walks of people here to have fun, period. vip (very important person) to who? i like the game, but lately its been changing, and not for the better.

  8. #28
    Community Member arkonas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lydox6191000 View Post
    i have been on ddo since 2010. free. wow. where to begin. i know i paid to play. but i did not pay for updates, expantions, and this low progress. i know how much i pay, and we deserve better than to be pushed aside everytime there is a glitch. and why can't i get a programmer to come out and fix the problem. I'm sorry, but this is not Gary Gygax's vision. This is not a game for Millionaires who have nothing better to do. This is a family oriented game filled with all walks of people here to have fun, period. vip (very important person) to who? i like the game, but lately its been changing, and not for the better.
    not sure why you brought this thread back. i actually enjoy the content as well as many others. Its just your opinion that its not going the right way while others are still playing.

  9. #29
    Community Member sdrocky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gkar View Post
    Which they called an update until they decided they wanted to charge VIPs for it.

    Care to define the difference between an update and an expansion in a clear and concise way?
    MOTU was never claimed to be an update. The only reference to the "update" was the fact it was called update 14. this is to keep the version numbering inline with the current practice and not get the numbering out of whak.

    Im VIP.

    i had absolutely no issues whatsoever shelling out 80 bucks for the CE motu for both me and my boy. (160 in total). I dont understand why others are complaining so much. DDo needs to be profitable to exist. No Profit = no ddo. profit = ddo.

    Ill shell out whatever for the next one to.

  10. #30
    Community Member pokeoutyoureardrums's Avatar
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    The only thing vip really promises us is access to all quest packs. Even the races/classes aren't counted, though I believe they throw a couple in for the sake of politice.

    Motu isn't a quest pack, it is an exspansion (albeit not a very big one).

    In short, taken as a whole motu would be 3 or 4 quest packs.
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lydox6191000 View Post
    i have been on ddo since 2010.
    Wow, since 2010!?!?!?!
    but this is not Gary Gygax's vision.
    No, it's not, and that's a good thing. If you want to play a video game closer to his vision, I'm sure you can find a copy of Pool of Radiance or Eye of the Beholder out there somewhere.

  12. #32
    Community Member pokeoutyoureardrums's Avatar
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    Wasn't gygax the guy that put together 3 dollars worth of ink and paper and sold it for twenty to forty a pop, sometimes more for 'exspansions'? Just checking
    Last edited by pokeoutyoureardrums; 01-07-2013 at 02:35 AM.
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  13. #33
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    5. What is a DDO VIP?

    Sounds important, right? Well, it is. DDO VIPs are players who want unlimited access to all of the content DDO has to offer. This newly optional subscription program also allows its gamers to enjoy a number of other exclusive benefits, such as a monthly grant of Turbine Points, priority access to servers, the ability to play all classes and races, additional character slots, a shared bank slot, and much more. The cost of becoming a DDO VIP is only $14.99 per month. Learn more by clicking here!

    This quote is took on FAQ : It say unlimited access and all content DDO has to offer This have to be change because no one will disagree that the Menace of the Underdark expension is not content.
    Last edited by letour; 01-10-2013 at 02:58 PM.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by letour View Post
    5. What is a DDO VIP?

    Sounds important, right? Well, it is. DDO VIPs are players who want unlimited access to all of the content DDO has to offer. This newly optional subscription program also allows its gamers to enjoy a number of other exclusive benefits, such as a monthly grant of Turbine Points, priority access to servers, the ability to play all classes and races, additional character slots, a shared bank slot, and much more. The cost of becoming a DDO VIP is only $14.99 per month. Learn more by clicking here!

    This quote is took on FAQ : It say unlimited access and all content DDO has to offer This have to be change because no one will disagree that the Menace of the Underdark expension is not content.
    Actually its says players who "want" unlimited access, it never actually says they'll get it. Also if you click the learn more link it tells you what you do and do not get.

  15. #35
    Community Member squishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkonas View Post
    im sorry man but this is a common factor in a lot of games from rift to wow. if you don't buy it you don't get it. if they made it free to vip it would be a real kick in the nuts to all players who are vip that paid for it. also for the content released im sorry your $10 isnt good enough to say you get an expansion for free.
    I think a lot of people know how I feel about this (that VIP's got screwed on the "expansion").

    However, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Opening it up to VIPs would be a - to borrow your expression - huge "kick in a nuts" to people who shelled out that monet to buy the expansion.

    Then again, consider the fact that Turbine did the same exact thing to VIPs when they suddenly re-worded the VIP agreement to exclude "expansions."

    So, for any and all of you who shelled out money to purchase that expansion, you might want to go get a hardened cup and athletic supporter fairly soon...









    (Not really mocking anyone here. Just pointing out that if Turbine screws one set of customers - whether they are justified in doing so or not - they'll screw the rest of their customer base eventually in like manner.)
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  16. #36
    Community Member arkonas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squishwizzy View Post
    I think a lot of people know how I feel about this (that VIP's got screwed on the "expansion").

    However, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Opening it up to VIPs would be a - to borrow your expression - huge "kick in a nuts" to people who shelled out that monet to buy the expansion.

    Then again, consider the fact that Turbine did the same exact thing to VIPs when they suddenly re-worded the VIP agreement to exclude "expansions."

    So, for any and all of you who shelled out money to purchase that expansion, you might want to go get a hardened cup and athletic supporter fairly soon...


    (Not really mocking anyone here. Just pointing out that if Turbine screws one set of customers - whether they are justified in doing so or not - they'll screw the rest of their customer base eventually in like manner.)
    i understand a lot of people were disappointed in some of the stuff or wording. But they never think ddo needs money to survive. this is their first expansion so yeah of course they had to reword the contracts. I just find it so funny that other games have done this method for years and when ddo decides to do it as well people acted like omg this is so new. honestly i think motu was a success. people are never willing to accept change. That is just people being stubborn. Games have to change all the time to keep customers as well as get new ones. Sure some will always leave but others will soon play again.

  17. #37
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squishwizzy View Post
    So, for any and all of you who shelled out money to purchase that expansion, you might want to go get a hardened cup and athletic supporter fairly soon...
    I would expect that another expansion may contain much of the MOTU expansion as part of its pre purchase plan.

    I base this off how LOTRO works with their expansions.

  18. #38
    Community Member squishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkonas View Post
    i understand a lot of people were disappointed in some of the stuff or wording. But they never think ddo needs money to survive. this is their first expansion so yeah of course they had to reword the contracts.
    I don't want this to be directed at you, but frankly this excuse really chapps my a**.

    I've been in this same business for over 20 years. I grew up in a small business...I know how the private sector works backwards and forwards. Saying that Turbine needs "money to survive" as a justification for what they did is a lame excuse. And if you use that justification, well, you can pretty much justify virtually ALL bad business practices, and even some criminal activity.

    The difference between a good business and a bad one is that the former makes good on its promises. They put their money where their mouth is.

    Bad businesses do the same type of snakey, underhanded **** Turbine did with that VIP agreement. Gee, anyone ever wonder why they "need the money to survive" in the first place?

    If Turbine wanted to "make money," they would have simply raised the monthly charge for VIPs and take the hit that the would inevitably have taken anyways - and that is: lose customers. Instead, they decided to re-work an agreement, act like they did nothing wrong, and then look to a bunch of enablers to justify their actions. it is pure BS. So now they lost customers, and guys like me who feel cheated (and can actually point to why they feel cheated) are all bent out of shape.

    Most people accept price increases. Inflation over time is a fact of life for the most.

    Given the low expectations people have of how some stuff is done in the private sector, does anyone wonder why the US citizenry had to bail out AIG, banks, and a good portion of the automotive sector? It is because the proliforation of amoral, less-than-ethical business that have taken root in the private sector these days. And no one it seems, outside of people like me, seems to get upset about it.

    Back when I was growing up, you took people at their word. Cripes, during the years of my grandparents your word was your frickin' bond. What in the h*ll ever happened to that?

    I'm all for companies pulling profits and making money: capitalism is the only economic system that provides stability and a better standard of living for all those who participate in it. But anyone who knows anything about how business actually works knows that an agreement is an agreement, and if you want to keep doing business and make money, you keep your frickin' word. Deliver on what you say you're going to deliver, and don't make excuses when you don't.

    So please, no more enabling of this kinda ****. It doesn't wash with me.
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  19. #39
    Community Member arkonas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squishwizzy View Post
    I don't want this to be directed at you, but frankly this excuse really chapps my a**.

    I've been in this same business for over 20 years. I grew up in a small business...I know how the private sector works backwards and forwards. Saying that Turbine needs "money to survive" as a justification for what they did is a lame excuse. And if you use that justification, well, you can pretty much justify virtually ALL bad business practices, and even some criminal activity.

    The difference between a good business and a bad one is that the former makes good on its promises. They put their money where their mouth is.

    Bad businesses do the same type of snakey, underhanded **** Turbine did with that VIP agreement. Gee, anyone ever wonder why they "need the money to survive" in the first place?

    If Turbine wanted to "make money," they would have simply raised the monthly charge for VIPs and take the hit that the would inevitably have taken anyways - and that is: lose customers. Instead, they decided to re-work an agreement, act like they did nothing wrong, and then look to a bunch of enablers to justify their actions. it is pure BS. So now they lost customers, and guys like me who feel cheated (and can actually point to why they feel cheated) are all bent out of shape.

    Most people accept price increases. Inflation over time is a fact of life for the most.

    Given the low expectations people have of how some stuff is done in the private sector, does anyone wonder why the US citizenry had to bail out AIG, banks, and a good portion of the automotive sector? It is because the proliforation of amoral, less-than-ethical business that have taken root in the private sector these days. And no one it seems, outside of people like me, seems to get upset about it.

    Back when I was growing up, you took people at their word. Cripes, during the years of my grandparents your word was your frickin' bond. What in the h*ll ever happened to that?

    I'm all for companies pulling profits and making money: capitalism is the only economic system that provides stability and a better standard of living for all those who participate in it. But anyone who knows anything about how business actually works knows that an agreement is an agreement, and if you want to keep doing business and make money, you keep your frickin' word. Deliver on what you say you're going to deliver, and don't make excuses when you don't.

    So please, no more enabling of this kinda ****. It doesn't wash with me.
    except last time i checked any company can modify their agreements. hence that reason its subject to change. this is why you cant take exact wording from anything. they can change venues, prices, items, blah blah at will.

  20. #40
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    As was pointed out many times since i first asked the update was really an expansion and excluded for VIPS.All i really needed out of the thread, surprised folks still post here. But since it was mentioned, letting the expansion be free to paying subscribers (VIPS in other words) down the road would be a good thing. If i don't buy this one as a VIP and a year from now they release an expansion which raises the cap from 25 to 30 why would i buy that one? Would i be alone in not purchasing it? I highly doubt it.. those who have no use for the content won't toss in the cash. If they throw in the whole underdark bit i'd likely buy the next expansion to experience it.

    It's not without precedent for a gaming company. Blizzard eventually started giving expansions to their paying customers as they released newer ones. When the cap went from 60 to 70 you had to buy that expansion, and when it went from 70 to 80 you had to buy that. But somewhere down the road they decided to throw in the 60-70 expansion, then they eventually did the same with the 70-80 one when they released another and the cap became 85. I've not checked to see if they also tossed in the 80-85 one, and i really don't care.

    And they are not the only company to do that. Dark Ages of Camelot later did it as well, though it was several years older. I'm sure others can think of companies that have given out expansions to draw more players in or try to keep the existing players interest.

    Point is Blizzard gave away multiple expansions (that were previously priced 30-50$) to allow people experience them and want to experience the newest. It works for them, maybe Turbine could learn from that.

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