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  1. #1
    Community Member Llewndyn's Avatar
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    Default When a group of newbs eclipses a group of vets

    /rant on {empower, maximize, quicken= ON}

    So, finally on life number 7 (yay me) and decided to go with rogue, but not a useful one (thief acrobat, which I am actually enjoying as much as my assassin!), and just like every life, I run in a lot of PUGs. One thing that is a little alarming is the amount of quit from "seasoned veterans" and TRs, much of the time at the expense of newbies who stick it out until the bitter end, muddling through and completing, and yet they are looked down upon. Example then discuss!

    Get into a Freshen the Air run elite last night, elite at level. Leader is a barb, who was probably to be honest roleplaying a little too much, and rushed ahead when though we had a cleric we really had no healing (cleric burned through all of his SP giving out buffs at beginning and again at each shrine, had I think 250 SP at level 6) and don't remember anyone potting up (well I was, and with cleric dilly was wand whipping, but that is not a viable source of healing when everyone is running every which way and I am killing, not healing), the cleric was a newb but was trying (I think, benefit of the doubt here), and we had a TR wizard who at the first death dropped group and another vet followed suit. With 4 of us left and we hadn't even made it to the big main room yet it seemed like all was lost, but we took our time, laughed at the barb who kept dying (well at least I did, he would raise, not heal up or wait for me to wand whip him, run off, and immediately die again), and completed. If this was a one off thing, I would have shrugged it off, but in retrospect this is usually the case: Get in a group with some newbies, no instructions are given (I usually don't give instructions unless asked, like to let people learn on their own), and the INSTANT we have to hit a mob more than twice all the TRs and vets take off because it negatively impacts their XP/min or they don't like adversity or what have you. There are lots of TRs/ vets who would have stayed, I don't want to make blanket statements here, but it seems to be more and more the case. I am wondering why.

    Is it:

    A) The new cadre of freshly stoned 16s are all finally finishing up piking to 20 and are benefiting falsely from having wings but still don't know how to play the game?

    B) No one has time to actually TRY at anything, preferring to zerg through every quest while being 2 levels over, and curse those who cannot do the same?

    C) No one really knows how to play this game and so when they realize in a given quest that no one is going to do it for them and they must work at it they drop and move on because for every group that you have to work to win there is one where you can simply be a name and a HP bar and get the same XP but quicker?

    D) I'm paranoid or a gimp and should shut up and stop reading into incidents like these?

    I tend to think it's A, but have been running into more and more players who I have run with for longer than the stones debacle who did it then and do it now... maybe its a combination of the two and one is exacerbating the other?

    If it's because you want to feel uber, nothing, but NOTHING made me feel more l33t than mowing down mobs while most of the party kind of held back behind me (except the barb) and also healing when the cleric inevitably ran out, and I'm sure I made a few friends lists (as one of them told me so) for a good reason this time

    When you give up and take off at the first hint of trouble, it is worse to me than when you pike, use the lame "guild calling, gotta run" or my personal favorite "I'm not a fighting rogue kay I'm just going to go into sneak mode and get traps kay I want all blue and black scales kay pls". I am a staunch advocate of "know when to hang em up" and all that, but to just bail when everyone is at least trying disparages the TR wings that used to actually mean something, but anymore just means you can stay logged in a certain amount of time, and that's sad.

    /rant off {drinks SP pot and drops group}
    Ghallanda - LLEWNDYN 27 Necro Wiz (completionist) + other random uncared for players - Blackmoor Defenders
    Thelanis - Llewndyn (FVS), Brickadoom Jenkins (barb/ ftr)
    Quote Originally Posted by jandhaer View Post
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  2. #2

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    I personally enjoy the near wipe newb groups. Makes me think back to when I was the newb in the group.

    That being said, I probably would have cut my losses if the party leader was acting like that nOOb.

    But to answer your question I think it's:

    E) No two people are the same, every new group you get into will be a new experience, good or bad.
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  3. #3
    The Hatchery DarkForte's Avatar
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    Ah, a common misconception. You don't need to be a good player, or know quests, or have experience in order to TR. A bad player can backpack his way to 20, then buy a heart of wood, then TR. while not having learned anything in the process. Then, he TRs, and, as such, believes he IS, in fact, an awesome veteran. As such, since he is awesome, if something is going wrong in the quest, it must be the fault of the other noobs in the group. Hence, ragequitting is the best option!
    Nerdrage/Endgame ~ Sarlona
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  4. #4
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Well, just going by your story that group didn't sound like much fun to be in.
    I'll stick with a group for quite awhile, but anyone who played like the Barbarian you described would have gotten on my nerves very quickly.
    And if it's not fun why be in the group?

  5. #5
    Community Member der_kluge's Avatar
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    I think it's a simply a personality type that certain people exhibit. Newer players can ragequit, too, but TRs and vets tend to have less patience, because the newness has worn off for them.
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  6. #6
    Community Member Llewndyn's Avatar
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    Default Thats probably the case...

    This guy seemed pretty knowledgeable though, was pointing out traps in redfangs and stuff (I can see them, have a 34 spot at level 5 with the dark blue ioun, but still) so it just smacked of "I don't want to try for XPs"... it's just a sad time. /sepiatoned glasses -I remember when I started seeing guys running around with those wings and being jealous and in awe at the same time, their flowing feathered mullets flowing whimsically in the soft breezes carried through the harbor, Billy Squire floating by like the throaty rumblings of a badass dragon/ unicorn taking on a rainbow in a battle of awesomeness... and then we have stuff like this and I am sad.
    Ghallanda - LLEWNDYN 27 Necro Wiz (completionist) + other random uncared for players - Blackmoor Defenders
    Thelanis - Llewndyn (FVS), Brickadoom Jenkins (barb/ ftr)
    Quote Originally Posted by jandhaer View Post
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  7. #7
    Community Member FrozenNova's Avatar
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    Freshen the Air elite is a good example where it is absolutely necessary to run like hell through the open room in order to reach your completion. If you collectively gave the impression that you weren't going to be able to accomplish it I can't really fault the guys for leaving.
    Unfamiliar with DDO's combat mechanics? Check here and here.

  8. #8
    Community Member Llewndyn's Avatar
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    Default For the most part

    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    Well, just going by your story that group didn't sound like much fun to be in.
    I'll stick with a group for quite awhile, but anyone who played like the Barbarian you described would have gotten on my nerves very quickly.
    And if it's not fun why be in the group?
    the group was great, they were at least trying, and every once in a while it's kind of cool to show a bunch of newbies how to run through something. If the barb had blamed anyone but himself I would have been annoyed with him too, but he didn't. He accepted that he was not a great player and while it didn't do a ton to help I can't fault the man. I guess (and from the comments wrongly so and I accept that) I see TR wings and I expect a little more; not that they will be invincible or anything, because I feel like in some small way I carry the torch of awesome on and I die a LOT, but that they have that something, that je nais sequioa or whatever it is, and am sad when they display nothing of the kind.

    Again, I want to be clear, there are some kick ass TRs out there, none of which names I remember, but they exist, it's just that their gentle memory is tarnished by these shenanigans and I won't stand for it! You dang kids get off my lawn!

    @ Frozennova: Both guys left before we made it to open room.
    Ghallanda - LLEWNDYN 27 Necro Wiz (completionist) + other random uncared for players - Blackmoor Defenders
    Thelanis - Llewndyn (FVS), Brickadoom Jenkins (barb/ ftr)
    Quote Originally Posted by jandhaer View Post
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  9. #9
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    as soon as i saw the word barb and elite mixed with low end stuff, the pity and uninterest became to strong.

    Gotta be the easiest way I know to lose 10% right off the bat. Easier then even a mage that came directly from pen and paper and flipped con and toughness the bird.

  10. #10
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Llewndyn View Post
    the group was great, they were at least trying, and every once in a while it's kind of cool to show a bunch of newbies how to run through something. If the barb had blamed anyone but himself I would have been annoyed with him too, but he didn't. He accepted that he was not a great player and while it didn't do a ton to help I can't fault the man. I guess (and from the comments wrongly so and I accept that) I see TR wings and I expect a little more; not that they will be invincible or anything, because I feel like in some small way I carry the torch of awesome on and I die a LOT, but that they have that something, that je nais sequioa or whatever it is, and am sad when they display nothing of the kind.

    Again, I want to be clear, there are some kick ass TRs out there, none of which names I remember, but they exist, it's just that their gentle memory is tarnished by these shenanigans and I won't stand for it! You dang kids get off my lawn!

    @ Frozennova: Both guys left before we made it to open room.

    Well, the group was great from your point of view. Not necessarily from the other player's point of view. Sometimes people just get tired of certain types of players.

    Of course they dropped before the open room, if they felt you guys weren't going to be able to accomplish it.

    Also in some cases, people dropping out of the group is a good thing for the remaining players. Not even because the person who dropped might be a jerk, but it does seem to have the effect of making the remaining players think a little bit and play better.

    I remember many cases. One that sticks out is a particularly hard quest at the time and we had a very experienced Cleric. Unfortunately, we didn't gel as a group and kind of tripped over each other. The Cleric finally got fed up and left before she started to use too many of her resources.

    Without a Cleric to fall back on we had to learn to coordinate our attacks and take time to heal up. It made the quest better.

    But wings or no wings, newb or vet, everyone is different and some personalities just don't mix. Yours is just one story. There are many stories out there. From what you describe the group didn't sound that great, despite your assertion that it was. At least not from my point of view.

  11. #11
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    Don't you know, having those magic wings makes everything easy and if something isn't easy the rest of the group must be at fault for it?

  12. #12
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenNova View Post
    Freshen the Air elite is a good example where it is absolutely necessary to run like hell through the open room in order to reach your completion. If you collectively gave the impression that you weren't going to be able to accomplish it I can't really fault the guys for leaving.
    I'm going to have to disagree with you here, that strategy has led to wipes in every party i have been in. I suggest moving from box to box killing the spawns as they appear. Especially with a group of new people. Having some form of ranged attack helps a lot to take down those casters on the ledges, as they seem to be by far the most dangerous enemies.

  13. #13
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodspeed View Post
    as soon as i saw the word barb and elite mixed with low end stuff, the pity and uninterest became to strong.

    Gotta be the easiest way I know to lose 10% right off the bat. Easier then even a mage that came directly from pen and paper and flipped con and toughness the bird.
    If you pull out of the quest, you lose 100%.

  14. #14
    Community Member Spoonwelder's Avatar
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    I have become a TR junkie - I only drop group after a quest (and on a rare wipe only if I truly have to log of for RL or if the group falls apart).

    I had a similar experience to you - Shadow Lord - we were going through the quest and all was good until the second last room. I am used to running across the room and laying down AOEs at the top of the ramp (just by the shrine). Two problems - I didn't communicate that too well to the group(expecially the arcane in the group) and I had locked the healing hire by the lever to open the room and had set him passive. So even as we were getting in trouble and I had the prescense to port him to us - he just stood there like a lump.

    It was all my fault so I caked - I said I was going to but one other guy dropped anyway - got the shrine open and then proceeded to rez/fight/rez/fight until we got the shrine cleared. We completed - I had a large repair bill but I was done with another quest I mildly dislike.

    Not all TRs are ass hats
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  15. #15
    Community Member squishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Llewndyn View Post
    Is it:

    A) The new cadre of freshly stoned 16s are all finally finishing up piking to 20 and are benefiting falsely from having wings but still don't know how to play the game?

    B) No one has time to actually TRY at anything, preferring to zerg through every quest while being 2 levels over, and curse those who cannot do the same?

    C) No one really knows how to play this game and so when they realize in a given quest that no one is going to do it for them and they must work at it they drop and move on because for every group that you have to work to win there is one where you can simply be a name and a HP bar and get the same XP but quicker?

    D) I'm paranoid or a gimp and should shut up and stop reading into incidents like these?

    A) Yes.

    B) Yes.

    C) Yes.

    D) No. I've run with you. You ain't "gimp."

    It drives me nuts when people rage-quit. After about a year on a specific server, you kinda know who is experienced, and who isn't. So if you're going to zerg something with a vet, you know the guy posting the LFM, and you'll group with them. If the guy you're grouping with is new or unfamiliar to you, well then you can't place the same expectations on those people was you would a group of known, experienced TRs. So you suck it up, and run it to the very end. To do otherwise is kinda rude.

    I also think that a lot of newer players solo to cap, and then start to group as they TR. So they have no frickin' clue as to how difficult a elite quest can be with a full boat as far as a party is concerned.

    I also think that there is an assumption of invulnurability when it comes to some TR players. If you sucked as a player all the way up to your first TR, and the trend doesn't change on your second life, you're going to suck a a player with three past lives, in which they learned next to nothing. And yeah, that happens.

    One of my wizzies went out on an excursion with two recent groups: one with a PUG with a relatively experienced leader who was a TR, and another with thee guildies and a couple of hires. In my case it was the same toon in both parties, on the same level. The first group, I died a lot. No one made a big stink of it, and I got rezed, but I sort of looked like an idiot even though I knew the quests fairly well.

    The second group I died maybe once (and it was my fault outright - I made a dumb move). And the quest was actually harder in terms of difficulty than the one in the first group.

    The difference? The first group was a mad dash from one point to the next. They would aggro everything, leave stuff behind, and worked like a pack of animals without coordination. In that instance, even if you HAVE self-healing capabilities, it doesn't work all that well when you're pinned, and have fifty mobs beating the **** out of you. You're gonna die. Period.

    The second: we went much slower, coordinated attacks, no one raced ahead. While they took care of the majority of the mobs, I went after the casters. It worked pretty well.

    Oh, and the first quest: I wasn't the only one dying a lot. Lots of people were getting their a**es handed to them, even the multi-TR who led the thing.

    I guess some people expect that everyone can just hammer away on stuff indiscriminantly, and everything will work out OK because you're a TR or have run the quest 30 times. It just isn't the case in a majority of the quests in DDO.
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  16. #16
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    If you pull out of the quest, you lose 100%.
    Not exactly. Because you can run it again and hopefully with a better group.
    All you lose depends on how long you are in.

    This is another difference from "vet" and "newb". When I was new I felt I had to finish whatever quest I was in, even after deaths and penalties brought the XP to basically nothing (or even negatives since death XP loss was quite bad at times). That was just the way of it. It was my first time and I was going to keep at it until I succeeded or it became just impossible to succeed (all gear busted and teammates leaving).

    As I played the game more I did the quests over and over and that same sense of must get it done wasn't quite there. i already knew the quests and I could see the warnings from how others were playing.

    And now that Turbine has turned getting XP into a Metagame, people are even more loathe to give up on an XP bonus. Some people would rather lose some time now and save the XP, then risk having to work harder at higher levels looking for XP.

    And if the group just isn't fun to be in, then no amount of XP will make up for it.
    Last edited by eonfreon; 10-29-2012 at 12:00 PM.

  17. #17
    Community Member Thlargir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Llewndyn View Post
    ... that je nais sequioa or whatever it is,
    I think that perhaps you are looking for "je ne sais quoi".

    TR wings certainly do not tell much of a story about skill, and certainly nothing about character.

    However those two turn out to be unrelated also. I was leading a group through elite Tangleroot gorge as a TRed L6 monk yesterday and on the final quest the rogue splashes could not find the traps, so I bravely volunteered to find them myself - ding! Twice! Doh!

    The cleric was also a TR and he and I stuck it out for the completion - of course he would be walking to school this morning if he hadn't, as he is my son...

  18. #18
    Community Member Pank's Avatar
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    I just can't believe people justifying the quitters. Really. I mena, if you don't like the group you wait till you complete or it is a complete wipe and drop group, but you do (or at least you should try) to finish what you started. This of course unless there is some harasment or personal issue, but these do not seem to be the case the OP talks about.
    You may not be in the mood to chug pots to try to get completion if you are a caster, and that is fine, but anyway if you step in a quest with a party, you should try to get it done. Period. It doesn't matter if success is uncertain, if it will take longer (not beyond reasonable), if you run with newbs, whatever.

    This is just my opinion (and how my parents taught me), and we all know what opinions are like.

  19. #19
    Hero LOOON375's Avatar
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    Idiots can come in all shapes and sizes, especially in the lower level quests. And those wings mean absolutely nothing, even if it is a 50 life toon/player.

    I don't pug the low levels as much as I used to, and it's not because of NEW players.

    It's because of the way that some "veteran" players behave during those low levels.
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  20. #20
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    And here I was thinking that the wings indicated a Red Bull addiction...

    Seriously, the situation brought up in the OP is probably contributing to the perception that the servers are losing population.

    I know I have lost confidence in unknown players, be they "noobs" or TRed Vets, because of the behaviors indicated. As such I solo 99.9% of the time. If it's just me and my Iron Mutt then I have only myself to blame if I fail, and the Iron Mutt never tells me my build sucks or I'm doing it wrong.
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