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  1. #1
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    Default New Guild Decay Rules

    UPDATE - since this thread was hijacked, please go to this post if you are interested in merging small guilds:

    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=396665

    ---------------------------------
    For those of you that don't know, Turbine is implementing a new decay policy that will help large guilds advance, but unforunately it does nothing for small guilds and adds a more severe renown reduction penalty when a guild gains 1 level. Here is the quick math comparing a small and large level 60 guild:

    example with the following assumptions
    - guilds start at minimum of level 60
    - 30 days in the month
    - large guild gets 50 renown per heroic deed and small guild gets 120 per heroic deed with 4 person small guild bonus

    UNDER THE OLD SYSTEM

    Level 60 guild with 4 accounts trying to get to level 61 in one month
    -Needs to earn 9.45 heroic deeds per account per day to cover renown loss
    -Needs to earn 47.58 heroic deeds per account per day to level to 61

    Level 60 guild with 200 accounts trying to get to level 61 in one month
    - Needs to earn 4.76 heroic deeds per account per day to cover renown loss
    - Needs to earn 6.60 heroic deeds per account per day to level to 61

    UNDER THE NEW SYSTEM THAT IS IMPLEMENTED UNTIL AT LEAST U16 - the developers seem dead set on encouraging big guilds so I doubt they will do much to change this after U16.

    Level 60 guild with 4 people trying to get to level 61 in one month
    -Needs to earn 9.45 heroic deeds per account per day to cover renown loss
    -Needs to earn 47.58 heroic deeds per account per day to level to 61

    Level 60 guild with 200 accounts trying to get to level 61 in one month
    - Needs to earn less than 1/2 of a heroic deed per account per day to cover renown loss
    - Needs to earn 2.28 heroic deeds per account per day to level to 61 (this is less than 5% of what the 4 person guild must generate)

    This example doesn't include the new renown reduction under the new system that will occur when a guild gains 1 level which I think will cause many small guilds to get caught in an infinite non-leveling loop unless they plan around it.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    I am glad big guilds are being helped, but am very disappointed that the new process was not well thought-out with regards to small guilds. I feel like a fool for buying guild elixirs without considering that Turbine may change the rules.

    So our small level 69 guild is looking to merge with some other small guilds on Sarlona. If you are interested please send me a PM and we can try and establish what the new guild would like. We are neither casual nor hardcore. We are interested in joining with people that play regularly. We want to join with guilds that think treating others with respect is more important than getting perfect gear, but still want to run higher level content, high level raids and even farm for good gear sometimes.

    We don't want to spam out invites to everyone in the harbor and korthos, but we don't want to be elitist and exclude people. We would rather help teach people how to do things right if they are interested in learning.

    Please PM me if you are interested in exploring a merger of small guilds. EDITED TO ADD: Our guild is Guardians of House Cannith
    Last edited by slarden; 10-30-2012 at 11:44 AM.
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    For those of you that don't know, Turbine is implementing a new decay policy that will help large guilds advance, but unforunately it does nothing for small guilds and adds a more severe renown reduction penalty when a guild gains 1 level. Here is the quick math comparing a small and large level 60 guild:

    example with the following assumptions
    - guilds start at minimum of level 60
    - 30 days in the month
    - large guild gets 50 renown per heroic deed and small guild gets 120 per heroic deed with 4 person small guild bonus

    UNDER THE OLD SYSTEM

    Level 60 guild with 4 accounts trying to get to level 61 in one month
    -Needs to earn 9.45 heroic deeds per account per day to cover renown loss
    -Needs to earn 47.58 heroic deeds per account per day to level to 61

    Level 60 guild with 200 accounts trying to get to level 61 in one month
    - Needs to earn 4.76 heroic deeds per account per day to cover renown loss
    - Needs to earn 6.60 heroic deeds per account per day to level to 61

    UNDER THE NEW SYSTEM THAT IS IMPLEMENTED UNTIL AT LEAST U16 - the developers seem dead set on encouraging big guilds so I doubt they will do much to change this after U16.

    Level 60 guild with 4 people trying to get to level 61 in one month
    -Needs to earn 9.45 heroic deeds per account per day to cover renown loss
    -Needs to earn 47.58 heroic deeds per account per day to level to 61

    Level 60 guild with 200 accounts trying to get to level 61 in one month
    - Needs to earn less than 1/2 of a heroic deed per account per day to cover renown loss
    - Needs to earn 2.28 heroic deeds per account per day to level to 61 (this is less than 5% of what the 4 person guild must generate)

    This example doesn't include the new renown reduction under the new system that will occur when a guild gains 1 level which I think will cause many small guilds to get caught in an infinite non-leveling loop unless they plan around it.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    I am glad big guilds are being helped, but am very disappointed that the new process was not well thought-out with regards to small guilds. I feel like a fool for buying guild elixirs without considering that Turbine may change the rules.

    So our small level 69 guild is looking to merge with some other small guilds on Sarlona. If you are interested please send me a PM and we can try and establish what the new guild would like. We are neither casual nor hardcore. We are interested in joining with people that play regularly. We want to join with guilds that think treating others with respect is more important than getting perfect gear, but still want to run higher level content, high level raids and even farm for good gear sometimes.

    We don't want to spam out invites to everyone in the harbor and korthos, but we don't want to be elitist and exclude people. We would rather help teach people how to do things right if they are interested in learning.

    Please PM me if you are interested in exploring a merger of small guilds.
    Boy, it sure would be nice for large guilds to have all 200 people on the same day, every day.

    Does your math take into account only about 10% of a large guild will be playing daily, in our case? Most are weekend warriors, in the casual guilds.

    It does not look like it.

    I see flawed math.

    I hate flawed math.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by eris2323 View Post
    Boy, it sure would be nice for large guilds to have all 200 people on the same day, every day.

    Does your math take into account only about 10% of a large guild will be playing daily, in our case? Most are weekend warriors, in the casual guilds.

    It does not look like it.

    I see flawed math.

    I hate flawed math.
    lol, in one post you tell OP he could possibly merge with your guild and in this one you flame him.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by madmaxhunter View Post
    lol, in one post you tell OP he could possibly merge with your guild and in this one you flame him.
    I do not like flawed math.

    That doesn't make him a bad person.

    His guild and ours is compatible. All in All. His description of his guild was almost exactly what I'd have used for ours.

  5. #5
    Community Member Mephisto-Helix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    UNDER THE NEW SYSTEM THAT IS IMPLEMENTED UNTIL AT LEAST U16 - the developers seem dead set on encouraging big guilds so I doubt they will do much to change this after U16.

    Level 60 guild with 4 people trying to get to level 61 in one month
    -Needs to earn 9.45 heroic deeds per account per day to cover renown loss
    -Needs to earn 47.58 heroic deeds per account per day to level to 61

    Level 60 guild with 200 accounts trying to get to level 61 in one month
    - Needs to earn less than 1/2 of a heroic deed per account per day to cover renown loss
    - Needs to earn 2.28 heroic deeds per account per day to level to 61 (this is less than 5% of what the 4 person guild must generate)
    Man that is a right royal screw over of small guilds and something I'm not at all happy with. What was the reasoning behind this stupidity? To only have mega guilds? It needs a major rethink because it's just not on!

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by eris2323 View Post
    I do not like flawed math.

    That doesn't make him a bad person.

    His guild and ours is compatible. All in All. His description of his guild was almost exactly what I'd have used for ours.
    The math is precise and not flawed, I get that you like the change, but please don't hijack my thread.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    The math is precise and not flawed, I get that you like the change, but please don't hijack my thread.
    You are assuming a 100% activity rate daily amongst all 200 accounts?

    That is not realistic, and is flawed math.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by eris2323 View Post
    I do not like flawed math.

    That doesn't make him a bad person.

    His guild and ours is compatible. All in All. His description of his guild was almost exactly what I'd have used for ours.
    You hate any argument that is not yours.

    I think the forums knows your opinion well... and I'm sure will know much more since you will reply to every reply in every thread every time.
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  9. #9
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    No less flawed than assuming that all members of a small guild have a 100% participation rate. Your point is a wash.

    Participation rate becomes a relative term. Not flawed math, as it would have to be tallied on a guild by guild basis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    No less flawed than assuming that all members of a small guild have a 100% participation rate. Your point is a wash.

    Participation rate becomes a relative term. Not flawed math, as it would have to be tallied on a guild by guild basis.
    Ah, so you saw the unwritten point too, and recognize it - exactly, it's flawed math, when you assume 100% activity rate amongst both guilds.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    See, that's the issue. It's OK to be casual in a large guild, but not in a small one? Why is that?
    I didn't say that, I said this post was filled with flawed math - as is pretty obvious to anyone who actually thinks about it for a second.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by eris2323 View Post
    I didn't say that, I said this post was filled with flawed math - as is pretty obvious to anyone who actually thinks about it for a second.
    No, the math is fine.

    You just want it to be OK to not be as active/go as much for renown in a large guild, and still get the same rewards as a focused small guild who goes for renown every time.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  13. #13
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    Call me names all you want, it's still flawed math, for the reasons stated above.

    Must you really start calling people names when they point out you are wrong?

    Is that not against forum TOS?

  14. #14
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eris2323 View Post
    Ah, so you saw the unwritten point too, and recognize it - exactly, it's flawed math, when you assume 100% activity rate amongst both guilds.
    Actually my point was directed at you.

    Whether the actual percentage of accounts active in a monthly period are 100% or 1%, the point the OP is attempting to make is that smaller guilds have to make exponentially more renown tokens than larger guilds for the same result.

    Seems to me that this concept of less individuals having to do much more has merit. Enough merit to bring it to the attention of the development team.
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    Actually my point was directed at you.

    Whether the actual percentage of accounts active in a monthly period are 100% or 1%, the point the OP is attempting to make is that smaller guilds have to make exponentially more renown tokens than larger guilds for the same result.

    Seems to me that this concept of less individuals having to do much more has merit. Enough merit to bring it to the attention of the development team.
    But you recognize that the math above is flawed; really, that's all I need to know.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by eris2323 View Post
    Call me names all you want, it's still flawed math, for the reasons stated above.

    Must you really start calling people names when they point out you are wrong?

    Is that not against forum TOS?
    DUDE! you don't get it? THIS IS NOT YOUR POST. You hammer the same argument over and over and over and over.

    I didn't call you a name, tr... means troubadour, and you should never feed traveling musicians. They tend to want to stay at your place, eat all your food, hide the remote, just bad all around.
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  17. #17
    Community Member Pank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eris2323 View Post
    But you recognize that the math above is flawed; really, that's all I need to know.
    The math is not flawed: it is an average.

    If you say that in a large guild every account will have to make X renown to make for decay, it means that if only half of the accounts are active they will have to make 2X each to make the same renown, and 10X for only 10% being active.

    It is an average, grasp the concept: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by madmaxhunter View Post
    DUDE! you don't get it? THIS IS NOT YOUR POST. You hammer the same argument over and over and over and over.

    I didn't call you a name, tr... means troubadour, and you should never feed traveling musicians. They tend to want to stay at your place, eat all your food, hide the remote, just bad all around.
    I do not need to be the owner of a post to comment on a post on Turbines public forums.

    I would appreciate it if you did not call me names simply because you disagree with me.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pank View Post
    The math is not flawed: it is an average.

    If you say that in a large guild every account will have to make X renown to make for decay, it means that if only half of the accounts are active they will have to make 2X each to make the same renown, and 10X for only 10% being active.

    It is an average, grasp the concept: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average
    It is NOT an average - there is not an AVERAGE of 100% active players per day.

  20. #20
    Community Member Spoonwelder's Avatar
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    The math is not flawed - the assumptions are flawed. Ignoring participation rates even - just find the break even point where a large guild and small guild have similar rates of renown required.....I am even ignoring the 4person guild size as a comparative (since if you were comparing to the hyper active 200 person guild you should at least have used the 6 person guild for the maximum guild size bonus which really does skew the numbers).

    UNDER THE OLD SYSTEM

    Level 60 guild with 4 active accounts trying to get to level 61 in one month
    -Needs to earn 9.45 heroic deeds per account per day to cover renown loss
    -Needs to earn 47.58 heroic deeds per account per day to level to 61

    Level 60 guild with trying to get to level 61 in one month
    100 active accounts= Needs to earn 9.52 heroic deeds per account per day to cover renown loss
    27 active accounts - Needs to earn 47.58 heroic deeds per account per day to level to 61

    UNDER THE NEW SYSTEM THAT IS IMPLEMENTED UNTIL AT LEAST U16 - the developers seem dead set on encouraging big guilds so I doubt they will do much to change this after U16.

    Level 60 guild with 4 active accounts trying to get to level 61 in one month
    -Needs to earn 9.45 heroic deeds per account per day to cover renown loss
    -Needs to earn 47.58 heroic deeds per account per day to level to 61

    Level 60 guild with 200 accounts trying to get to level 61 in one month
    Need 4 active accounts=9.45 of a heroic deed per account per day to cover renown loss
    Need 4 Active accounts= 47.38 heroic deeds per account per day to level to 61






    So you see before you need 100 ACTIVE ACCOUNTS per day to match a 4 person active guild JUST to beat renown decay at equivalent rates of renown gain. AND if the large guild wants to level at the same pace as a small guild they needed 27 daily active accounts to match a small guild. This was the problem with the old system. The new system isn't perfect - not that it specifically punishes the small guild (aside from the level up renown ransack formula which is an error if it is too harsh but the sample size was pretty small to determine that) BUT that it by comparison only improves the lot of medium/larger guilds.

    The change does not inherently make life any different for small guilds (aside from the ransack mechanism which as I said is still an unknown quantity). Your small guild will grow at the same rate it did before - you will hit a guild level wall somewhere where your guild either has to change/grow or accept it's level.
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