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  1. #1
    Community Member BinyaminTsadik's Avatar
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    Default PVP Haters - insight

    Every time someone puts up a post on improving PVP most of the replies are:
    No PVP, DDO isnt balanced for PVP, go play WoW... etc.

    Many of these claims hold true. In most E-SPORTS, team PvP games include set in strategy and leveling curves.
    The players that start out weak,end up very strong in end game (carries). The ones that start out strong at the start end up weaker in endgame. The high dps players have low durability. And the high durability players have low dps.

    The Dungeons and Dragons setting is not a PvP realm. Players are usually balanced at mid levels, but at epic levels its the casters that dominate.

    PvP in ddo, cannot have progression within the PvP setting, and is bound to the pen and paper idea of casters. This is why casters dominate in PvP.

    The only way PvP can be balanced in DDO is in a teamfight with a balanced team, but not many people do this.

    Many people suggest to modify stats, health, spells, within the PvP setting in order to balance it, however this is a huge undertaking.

    I know many players that left DDO early game because of the lack of PvP capacity. So it may be profitable to improve it slightly, but balancing is not the way to do it.

    Rogue sneak is definitely a skill that should be present in pvp, and if the base hit dice (not items) were trippled it may balance the playing field a bit.

    One of the best Ideas I've seen was to have a seperate PvP server like lamania where you could transfer your character and fight intersever PvP battles. Orien vs Canith! This way the entire world could be a big PVP arena with no quests or questing, and all skills, items and classes could be incorporated and balanced properly without affecting the game. Scores could be added, and PVP guilds could be formed.
    Tournaments, teamfights, arenas, etc could all come together.
    Instead of entering a quest, you would enter a PVP instance. The party UI could be smaller to allow for larger teams. Different scenarios and minigames could be incorporated. This way, the haters could be PVP free in the main gaming world and the PVPers could get the balancing that they want in the PVP world.

    But again, where is the money in this for DDO? I answer, if you build it they will come. Many RL friends and E-Sports community avoid playing DDO for lack of a good PvP system.

  2. #2
    Community Member protokon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BinyaminTsadik View Post
    Every time someone puts up a post on improving PVP most of the replies are:
    No PVP, DDO isnt balanced for PVP, go play WoW... etc.

    Many of these claims hold true. In most E-SPORTS, team PvP games include set in strategy and leveling curves.
    The players that start out weak,end up very strong in end game (carries). The ones that start out strong at the start end up weaker in endgame. The high dps players have low durability. And the high durability players have low dps.

    The Dungeons and Dragons setting is not a PvP realm. Players are usually balanced at mid levels, but at epic levels its the casters that dominate.

    PvP in ddo, cannot have progression within the PvP setting, and is bound to the pen and paper idea of casters. This is why casters dominate in PvP.

    The only way PvP can be balanced in DDO is in a teamfight with a balanced team, but not many people do this.

    Many people suggest to modify stats, health, spells, within the PvP setting in order to balance it, however this is a huge undertaking.

    I know many players that left DDO early game because of the lack of PvP capacity. So it may be profitable to improve it slightly, but balancing is not the way to do it.

    Rogue sneak is definitely a skill that should be present in pvp, and if the base hit dice (not items) were trippled it may balance the playing field a bit.

    One of the best Ideas I've seen was to have a seperate PvP server like lamania where you could transfer your character and fight intersever PvP battles. Orien vs Canith! This way the entire world could be a big PVP arena with no quests or questing, and all skills, items and classes could be incorporated and balanced properly without affecting the game. Scores could be added, and PVP guilds could be formed.
    Tournaments, teamfights, arenas, etc could all come together.
    Instead of entering a quest, you would enter a PVP instance. The party UI could be smaller to allow for larger teams. Different scenarios and minigames could be incorporated. This way, the haters could be PVP free in the main gaming world and the PVPers could get the balancing that they want in the PVP world.

    But again, where is the money in this for DDO? I answer, if you build it they will come. Many RL friends and E-Sports community avoid playing DDO for lack of a good PvP system.
    Which has been the whole debacle for the last few years. It is complete heresy to even whisper talks about trying to impove pvp here in ddo, and it's always the generic, canned response "because it wastes my vip dollars on precious development time blah blah blah".

    Sad to say as much as I hate that response, I agree wholeheartedly - both on the problems you presented in the system, as to why it is imbalanced (burst ranged dps of casters is just superior, period) and to be honest, although I would love to see a type of pvp server you could transfer your toons to for fun, I just don't see it happening - and all honestly, I'd prefer it not to.

    leave it the way it is.

    If I need to satisfy my pvp nerd-rage instincts, il turn on the xbox and pwn the 12 year olds playing left 4 dead. or i'll just log into Rift.
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  3. #3
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    You make very good points about the difficulties of incorporating PvP in DDO.

    Personally I advocate selling PvP maps individually such as a DotA style map. I see this idea as perfect as the focus of the map is PvE and so perfectly fits in with the structure of D&D. Additionally, this structure perfectly addresses the need to build revenue from the sale of the map.

    In regards to a dedicated server ... well, I'd incorporate that idea into a generally themed extreme difficulty server which is Permanent Death, Friendly Fire and in general absolutely brutal. That should keep everyone happy. PvP would be quite balanced with PD as you aren't that likely to make it to a very high level (where there is less balance).

  4. #4
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    I'm sure there are people who would stay, or join, DDO if PvP was more developed.

    What I'm not sure about is whether it'd be worth it from a pure cost/benefit point of view. PvP is very sketchy in DDO atm, and developing it enough to satisfy said people will, as far as I can tell, take an enormous amoun of work. IMO, it'd be a big risk to take. And in the mean time, it'd take resources away from other areas of the game, alienating most of the players that are already playing it.

    But I'm not, really, opposed to PvP. I don't play it, and couldn't care less about it - as long as it has no influence over PvE.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  5. #5
    Community Member karnokvolrath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protokon View Post
    If I need to satisfy my pvp nerd-rage instincts, il turn on the xbox and pwn the 12 year olds playing left 4 dead. or i'll just log into Rift.
    My sentiments exactly.

    A server for Khyber vrs Sarlona, or something like it would be awesome though.
    Even if was on like wednesday and only two servers each week, this would give it a huge showdown feel that you would wait weeks to get revenge in
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  6. #6
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Unfortunately I tend to imagine that without some development of a PVP system which is appropriate to DDO that eventually our game will die.

  7. #7
    Community Member baddax's Avatar
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    Default Devils advocate.

    Quote Originally Posted by BinyaminTsadik View Post
    Every time someone puts up a post on improving PVP most of the replies are:
    No PVP, DDO isnt balanced for PVP, go play WoW... etc.

    Many of these claims hold true. In most E-SPORTS, team PvP games include set in strategy and leveling curves.
    The players that start out weak,end up very strong in end game (carries). The ones that start out strong at the start end up weaker in endgame. The high dps players have low durability. And the high durability players have low dps.

    The Dungeons and Dragons setting is not a PvP realm. Players are usually balanced at mid levels, but at epic levels its the casters that dominate.What is a PvP realm? D&D is and always has been bound only by the limitations of the GMs imagination.

    PvP in ddo, cannot have progression within the PvP setting, and is bound to the pen and paper idea of casters. This is why casters dominate in PvP. What does this mean? And bound be whom?The only other limitaions I see for DDO is the limitations of the Physical sort. ie Internet, grpahics and processing ability of computers and servers.

    The only way PvP can be balanced in DDO is in a teamfight with a balanced team, but not many people do this. I think you may be underestimating the DDO development team. They have recently proven creative in there modifications to such things as Spells Fortification Special effects ie Vorpals smiters and such.

    Many people suggest to modify stats, health, spells, within the PvP setting in order to balance it, however this is a huge undertaking. Really? Like balancing ALL quest difficulties based off of party makeup? Not to mention events such as the mabar event.

    I know many players that left DDO early game because of the lack of PvP capacity. So it may be profitable to improve it slightly, but balancing is not the way to do it. So improve it slightly and its profitable But Invest significant resources and there is no Increased effect? Interesting what do you base this conclusion upon? So an unbalanced system is the way to go? well It appears "mission accomplished" because the system we have is very unbalanced.

    Rogue sneak is definitely a skill that should be present in pvp, and if the base hit dice (not items) were trippled it may balance the playing field a bit. Do you mean Damage die? or SA modifier?

    One of the best Ideas I've seen was to have a seperate PvP server like lamania where you could transfer your character and fight intersever PvP battles. Orien vs Canith! This way the entire world could be a big PVP arena with no quests or questing, and all skills, items and classes could be incorporated and balanced properly without affecting the game. Scores could be added, and PVP guilds could be formed.
    Tournaments, teamfights, arenas, etc could all come together.
    Instead of entering a quest, you would enter a PVP instance. The party UI could be smaller to allow for larger teams. Different scenarios and minigames could be incorporated. This way, the haters could be PVP free in the main gaming world and the PVPers could get the balancing that they want in the PVP world. I like the idea of a seperate PVP server, this has been suggested before.

    But again, where is the money in this for DDO? I answer, if you build it they will come. Many RL friends and E-Sports community avoid playing DDO for lack of a good PvP system. I agree there is a large segement of the overall gaming population that enjoys PvP.DDO is my game of choice and though i am not a huge pvp fan i see no reason I shouyld be forced to go else where for a suitable alternative for my PvP fix should i so coose. I also dont feal a PvP po[pulation would be any more disruptive than our current FtP players. I am all for anything (well mostly anything) that expands our game to a larger audience and thus increased revenue and development for the overall ddo community.
    Comments in Red.
    Last edited by baddax; 08-25-2011 at 03:46 AM.
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  8. #8
    Community Member BinyaminTsadik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baddax View Post
    Comments in Red.
    1. Any progressive E-Sport game will have balancing updates every week. Balance is the most important aspect of these games.
    2. E-Sport games are far simpler than DDO in all forms of their system

    So if a simple system takes years to balance (and tiny tweeks occur every weekly update), balancing ddo for pvp is a far greater undertaking. Especially considering that any game balance will also affect the PvE aspect.

    - Most people have issues with PvP because the balancing will change the status of PvE.


    This is why the best way that I saw of balancing these aspects is creating a separate PvP server that can balance classes/items/abilities across the board and will have no affect on the PvE. Even the party UI, in PvP should be different.


    A separate development team can be solely responsible for this new server, this will attract more players to DDO, more revenue, and add a different aspect to the game.

    The only relevant PvP today in ddo, is Veteran PvP, where you create a lvl 4 character and fight with their starter gear. The only problem with that is finding people that are willing to do it. A PvP server that is dedicated to PvP means that no one is logging on to organize loot, or do raids, it means everyone there is for PvP, and it will be far easier to find groups.

    Any other suggestion that I have seen regarding PvP will interfere with the ddo that we know and love.

  9. #9
    Community Member Arnhelm's Avatar
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    I have seen many a game ruined by implementation of PvP "balancing". Worse, I've been griefed in games that forced PvP without regard to personal choice, regardless of being on a "non-PvP" server.

    The reality for me is simple. I like DDO because there is no real PvP, no constant "balancing" of existing classes because PvP is borked (regardless of the numbers of people who don't PvP), and no griefing of me as I play the PvE game I truly enjoy.

    For those who want PvP, I suggest going to games with backgrounds designed for PvP. WoW is one. Asheron's Call Darktide server is another. I'm certain there are other good games for PvP play, and those don't require destroying the DDO we non-PvP players enjoy.
    There is no free lunch.

  10. #10
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protokon View Post
    Which has been the whole debacle for the last few years. It is complete heresy to even whisper talks about trying to impove pvp here in ddo, and it's always the generic, canned response "because it wastes my vip dollars on precious development time blah blah blah".
    Business decisions ARE made based on money. We kid ourselves if we feel otherwise, regardless of our various stances, agreements or disagreements, on the PVP issue.

    The last sentence in the OP contains the most legit question. Where is the money in this for DDO? In order to convince Turbine, you WILL have to convince a decent chunk of the playerbase, because that IS where the money is for this in DDO.

    What you are calling a generic canned response is not canned or generic. Its a paying customer stating their opinion and standing by it. Either you would have to convince these people that PVP is right for this game, or rally up alot of PVP supporters to the point where the "anti PVP" crowd is the minority. If either of those could be done, you would then have shown Turbine "where the money in this is" so to speak.
    Last edited by Chai; 08-25-2011 at 09:46 AM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  11. #11
    Founder & Hero cdbd3rd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BinyaminTsadik View Post
    Every time someone puts up a post on improving PVP most of the replies are:
    No PVP, DDO isnt balanced for PVP, go play WoW... etc....

    The Dungeons and Dragons setting is not a PvP realm.

    .... Many <people> avoid playing DDO for lack of a good PvP system.


    *adding the inverse truism here: Many people are playing DDO for the lack of a PvP system.*

    /Stands at door debating whether to take the bait.

    Naw. Nothin I could say here that isn't already in the OP. (except for one tiny little addition)


    /Wanders off.
    Last edited by cdbd3rd; 08-25-2011 at 09:36 AM.
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  12. #12
    Community Member Arnhelm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdbd3rd View Post
    *adding the inverse truism here: Many people are playing DDO for the lack of a PvP system.*
    One of if not the biggest reasons I'm still playing after most of two years. Thank you for bringing it up.
    There is no free lunch.

  13. #13
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    this is rapidly becoming me standard responce to pvp threads.

    any future pvp development should be a 'pack' that has to be bought. the sales figures would answer once and for all the feasability of pvp development.

    the forum users represent a tiny portion of the player base, so all the shouting here is not realy representative of the typical player.

    ps. im not a hater, but i probly only spend 1% or less of my game time in any kind of pvp setting.
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  14. #14
    Founder Bracosius's Avatar
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    I know exactly where you are coming from and I have advocated the same concept in the past, but no one wants to hear it. Instead they rather neg rep you hoping you never type PvP into another post again.

    I think it would be amazing if DDO had team PvP. The argument is always that balancing would occur and this would effect PvE, but this is entirely untrue. If you have 2 teams and they both have access to the exact same classes and races, what is there to balance?

    It is not required that a barbarian be able to kill a wizard in a 1v1 fight in order for fun team PvP to exist. If you get frustrated that your barbarian keeps getting owned by casters, develop a new tactic or go roll a caster for PvP. If you don't think that should be required to PvP effectivly, then don't PvP.

    I also think awards for PvP should exist that do not effect the core PvE part of the game. The rewards could be cosmetic, we already know turbine has that ability. It is enough of a reward for people good at PvP to have something to show for it, but does not effect PvE at all.

    I also do not think it would be time consuming or difficult to do, they already have most of the concept in place. They have team arenas but no one uses them. I think a que system that allows you to leave the tavern, stay qued and only drop you from que if you enter a quest would help.

    I guarantee that if PvP had a reward of a cosmetic only crown, just like cosmetic armor upgrades, that was a reward for team PvP only, people would do it. And if enough of the polpulation ends up enjoying it, then more maps can be added, and rewards that do not not effect PvE.
    Last edited by Bracosius; 08-25-2011 at 09:50 AM.

  15. #15
    Community Member Dragavon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BinyaminTsadik View Post
    But again, where is the money in this for DDO? I answer, if you build it they will come. Many RL friends and E-Sports community avoid playing DDO for lack of a good PvP system.
    I see what you are saying. But I play DDO because it has no PVP.

    If someone wants a PVP game then let them go play something else, leave DDO to us that want no part of it. That is my opinion

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Business decisions ARE made based on money. We kid ourselves if we feel otherwise, regardless of our various stances, agreements or disagreements, on the PVP issue.

    The last sentence in the OP contains the most legit question. Where is the money in this for DDO? In order to convince Turbine, you WILL have to convince a decent chunk of the playerbase, because that IS where the money is for this in DDO.
    I agree completely. If market demand were sufficient, a new server catering solely to PVP would be worth the effort. I do think, however, that an entirely new game utilizing the existing code base as a starting point should be created to support it. Something like DDO: Eberron Arena springs to mind. This would remove all question of balance between the two play styles and allow for PVP to truly come into its own.

  17. #17
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    My opinion on the matter is that the devs in of DDO listen to and fear the forum community on a whole different level compared to most e-sport or more pvp-oriented games. This is quite natural as DDO has quite a bit of history and wants to keep its veterans who have strong opinions and interests. At least clear majority on the forums is totally against pvp. Whether or not this is true for the whole population, is something no1 knows. My guess is yes..

    Connection to community is very important, but I really think their data mining is too excessive and often results in confusion and indecisiveness. Sometimes no amount of statistics of what players do, will tell the devs what the players want to do and whether or not they'd enjoy something new. If the devs lack vision, they could start myddo surveys and somehow encourage ppl to make informed decisions in them.

  18. #18
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    I am really against trying to balance anything in the "pits".

    The amount of childish behavior and greefing I see in there makes me even more against it.

    And I am against any change in the classes to try to balance PvP.

    But...I am for imporving PvP in other ways.
    Mostly through variety.

    First thing that comes to mind is Rogues.....who cannot hide in PvP.

    To me, the total fun of PvP is to outsmart a living human being. If I wanted to see how fast I could take out a mindless object, I'd go find a training dummy.

    Fun PvP would be for tactics to be useful. And trickery.
    Loading up on spell absorbtion items is not tactics IMO.

    Tactics is running around a corner and circling back to attack the guy from behind.

    So improve the death matches.
    Give lots and lots of variety to the types of environments you can go against someone else in.

    Add stuff to use against them in there too. Like those ship cannons, or turning a WF titan against someone else....

    Get creative!

    Allow all spells and all abilities to work in PvP.

    Give people lots of environments to use to outsmart someone else in creative ways.

    That would be fun to me!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  19. #19
    Community Member MsEricka's Avatar
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    How could you not expect that a thread title like this would get a lot of responses?

    =BinyaminTsadikMany RL friends and E-Sports community avoid playing DDO for lack of a good PvP system.
    And we applaud them not coming to DDO.

    Here's the issue with DDO PvP, it's lame.. oh sorry, I mean it's "broken". To be some sort of PvP player you need to build your toon for PvP. In most cases this means you're going to break your toon for PvE, especially if you're a caster.

    There's enough characters out there that are bad already, throw in the mix of PvP players with badly built arcanes thinking that they're entitled to be in your group and entitled to the same loot as everyone else when they don't contribute and you have issues.

    Melee PvP is different, but very few people that are "serious" about PvP will play melee when they think they can make an arcane and own the pits.

    I've made the suggestion many times before. Make PvP a lvl 4 right off the boat area that is not accessible by PvE characters. Or even possibly have pre-selectable level 4 characters that people can PvP with. This way everyone is essentially weak and cannot have gear traded to them. It would keep everything on a much more level playing field.

    Oh, and HECK NO to a PvP server.

    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off
    Unfortunately I tend to imagine that without some development of a PVP system which is appropriate to DDO that eventually our game will die.
    Fail. DDO isn't going to die because of a lack of PvP. That's just silly and 5+ years of being around proves that. DDO _was_ failing due to a lack of new subscribers and new content. F2P has solved that issue. Continuous updates also prove you wrong as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by BinyaminTsadik
    Any progressive E-Sport game will have balancing updates every week.
    Weekly "balance" updates however, WOULD kill DDO and make it yet another WoW clone. Also note, that DDO is not an E-Sport game. Please stop making comparisons as they are different beasts.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bracosius View Post
    I think it would be amazing if DDO had team PvP. The argument is always that balancing would occur and this would effect PvE, but this is entirely untrue. If you have 2 teams and they both have access to the exact same classes and races, what is there to balance?
    It does have team vs team PvP. It also has Capture the Flag. People just dont use it.

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