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  1. #21
    Community Member Purkilius's Avatar
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    My first melee was a TWF 18 paladin 2 monk KotC and with the ToD set GOB´s he was doing viable dps to EO but against everything else it was bit meh. I tr´d to a 12 fighter 6 paladin 2 monk and not going back unless paladins get a major buff in the enhancement pass, the thought was a fighter life but with US ED these 6 levels paladin are enough for tanking. IMO when you start using your LoH a lot things are going south anyway. Yeah I miss Zeal and the self healing but killing things faster is the best way of survival IMO.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    A guildy went 14 paladin/4 fighter/2 monk for feat slots on a DoS build, seems a neat idea.
    I've got this build as a dwarf on the back burner until the enhancement update. Basically, as a Dwarf you should still be able to get tier 3 PrE. Then you get the following feats: 7 base, 3 fighter, 2 monk, 2 epic = 14.

    Defensive (7): Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, PL: Barb
    Offensive (5): PA, IC:Slash, THF, ITHF, GTHF
    Other (2): SF: Intimidate, Stunning Blow

    If you don't care about intimidate or tactics you could switch: Stunning Blow, SF: Intimidate and Spring Attack for Cleave/GC/OC.

    How I saw this build working was basically Paladin14+Zeal = Fighter+Capstone. So Zeal is the only methodto get evasion and decent dps via doublestrike. It then follows you need the four fighter levels for feats. As an added benefit to being a Paladin, you should be able to get reflex saves into the 70s.


    With regards to the OP. I always thought the capstone was good at for eSOS or eCB. This doesn't matter as much for tanks - better to have a crafted epic greater bane - and for non-tanks twisting something like sense weakness is going to be a better option.
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  3. #23
    Community Member superdupe6934's Avatar
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    I think the capstone is still a worthwhile contribution myself. Instead of just waiting to get just good damage on my weapons at the cost of a longer wait and a TON of xp and time, investing in the capstone essentially unlocks automatic greater good damage since everything stacks. With the right weapon (as is the case with ANY melee class) Paladins have the potential to become walking Evil killers. Consider if you spend the time to get an epic Templar's Retribution or epic Templar's Justice for you dwarves out there. On a fully specced Sentinel Pally on every single shot you can deal: Holy Burst, Holy, Greater Good, Brilliance, Good Blast on 20's AND be stacking Godly Wrath to boot! So at base if you level a couple of really solid hits with zeal you can expect to deal 3d12 (greater good, holy burst and holy) + 18 on a crit for burst + 8 + 3d6 with good blast on crits + an additional 4d6 on 20 + 12 vs evil outsiders and undead. All tallied at max force you're looking at about 104-116 extra damage on every single shot. Without factoring in the weapon itself or the player's own strength. That seems like a pretty good reason to try for it. If we use the tools that are built around us We become quite lethal at doing what we do best: Killing the ever loving snot out of evildoers!
    Last edited by superdupe6934; 10-26-2012 at 01:09 AM.

  4. #24
    Community Member Rogann's Avatar
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    I think the thread name should be: "Why play pally in the first place"?

  5. #25
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogann View Post
    I think the thread name should be: "Why play pally in the first place"?
    Yeah do you think Turbine is ever going to put out Mounts for Paladins? Paladins should be the fastest class in ddo because they should have a mount but Turbine can not be bothered to put that in the game.
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  6. #26
    Community Member Purkilius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superdupe6934 View Post
    I think the capstone is still a worthwhile contribution myself. Instead of just waiting to get just good damage on my weapons at the cost of a longer wait and a TON of xp and time, investing in the capstone essentially unlocks automatic greater good damage since everything stacks. With the right weapon (as is the case with ANY melee class) Paladins have the potential to become walking Evil killers. Consider if you spend the time to get an epic Templar's Retribution or epic Templar's Justice for you dwarves out there. On a fully specced Sentinel Pally on every single shot you can deal: Holy Burst, Holy, Greater Good, Brilliance, Good Blast on 20's AND be stacking Godly Wrath to boot! So at base if you level a couple of really solid hits with zeal you can expect to deal 3d12 (greater good, holy burst and holy) + 18 on a crit for burst + 8 + 3d6 with good blast on crits + an additional 4d6 on 20 + 12 vs evil outsiders and undead. All tallied at max force you're looking at about 104-116 extra damage on every single shot. Without factoring in the weapon itself or the player's own strength. That seems like a pretty good reason to try for it. If we use the tools that are built around us We become quite lethal at doing what we do best: Killing the ever loving snot out of evildoers!
    But they are so slow
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  7. #27
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Yeah do you think Turbine is ever going to put out Mounts for Paladins? Paladins should be the fastest class in ddo because they should have a mount but Turbine can not be bothered to put that in the game.
    False. In PnP monks are faster than most mounts a paladin can put their hands (and butt) on.

    Wizards and Sorcerers should be able to summon a Phantom Steed (lvl 3 spell I believe...may be 4), which has a higher speed than either the monk or the mounted paladin, and can fly.

    Druids should be able to transform into several forms that are generally going to be faster than a paladin's mount.

    Still, the point kind of stands. Honestly, though, I'd prefer some strong alternative to the mount, since we have a lot of places in DDO where having a mount would feel/look awkward.
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  8. #28
    Community Member Purkilius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    False. In PnP monks are faster than most mounts a paladin can put their hands (and butt) on.

    Wizards and Sorcerers should be able to summon a Phantom Steed (lvl 3 spell I believe...may be 4), which has a higher speed than either the monk or the mounted paladin, and can fly.

    Druids should be able to transform into several forms that are generally going to be faster than a paladin's mount.

    Still, the point kind of stands. Honestly, though, I'd prefer some strong alternative to the mount, since we have a lot of places in DDO where having a mount would feel/look awkward.
    A buff like Barbarians sprint boost "speed of the steed" or something like that would not be a bad idea lol
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  9. #29
    Community Member elraido's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    False. In PnP monks are faster than most mounts a paladin can put their hands (and butt) on.

    Wizards and Sorcerers should be able to summon a Phantom Steed (lvl 3 spell I believe...may be 4), which has a higher speed than either the monk or the mounted paladin, and can fly.

    Druids should be able to transform into several forms that are generally going to be faster than a paladin's mount.

    Still, the point kind of stands. Honestly, though, I'd prefer some strong alternative to the mount, since we have a lot of places in DDO where having a mount would feel/look awkward.
    Phantom Steed needs to be level 14 for it to fly.

    Honestly, I have been wishing for SOME compensation for the special mount for YEARS now. It was a very vital part to a Paladins play ability. Heck some builds were based on them...i.e. a heavy lance user. x8 Crit (IIRC), crowd control...trample, knock down etc. In any type of open environment it was useful. Heck, even using them in dungeons where there was enough room it was a vital component. In DDO it is just complete ignored.
    Last edited by elraido; 10-26-2012 at 03:49 PM. Reason: I just derailed my own thread....
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  10. #30
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    My problem with Glorious Stand is that, as an OH **** button, it's fairly lacking. Yes, there are times where it works, but in, say, a raid fight, if things go sideways, 30 seconds is often not a long enough period of time to get things stabilized. In addition, if things are going badly, you have to decide whether it's bad enough to use GS now, or whether you need to hold onto it in case things go worse soon.

    Short duration, long cooldown abilities work well for something offensive, like Manyshot, because the power is largely in your hands. If you use it now, you aren't necessarily screwed by it not being available 30 seconds from now. At worst, you wait out of combat, or kite for a bit. Unyielding Sovereignty has an immediate benefit, and if you need to use it, you will, and then won't be looking to rely on it for a while.

    Glorious Stand is highly dependent on everything else going on--are the healers dead? Are you taking enough damage right now that it's needed? Is only one healer dead right now, with the possibility of either stabilizing things, or getting worse? Will GS prevent things from getting worse? Will it be better in 30 seconds, or a minute, when things get worse?

    And if you are getting outside healing, it is only semi-useful, as many healers won't necessarily know to swap to Cure Light Wounds for 30 seconds, and then change back, and will just be over-healing you.

    Yes, some of your strategy for using it looks pretty good (and I'll probably try using it in the way you describe, letting HP drop, and then using it to go a bit longer before needing healing, and boosting yourself to full), but in the situations that it appears to be designed for, it's fairly poor.

    It would be better if it's cooldown were dropped to 30 seconds. It would be better if it's duration were dropped to 15 seconds, the cooldown to 0, and could be chained, maybe costing 2 turns instead of 1 per use.
    I have to say it took me quite a bit of practice at using GS to realize when the best time to use it is. When it first came out...heck for a long time, I never really understood the best time of when to use it. It seemed pretty useless to me as well. For example, if you're tanking Horoth and you're getting constant healing, do you really need it? One might think to themselves...I'm tanking a really nasty raid boss, I should use GS! But as you mentioned, it's pretty redundant if your healer is keeping you up.

    Again, you can't think of GS as an easy button / God mode every time you tank a nasty red name. That would be...boring. As you mentioned, 30 seconds isn't going to be long enough to do that to make a big difference. Instead, you need to get out of that mindset. Generally speaking, to me that means you don't hit it when you're already getting healing. You don't hit it when everything is under control. You hit it when something bad happens. When you have a true oh *%&@ moment. For example, you're tanking and all of a sudden your healer dies, a couple of other people die, etc. We've all been there when that happens. You might be holding your own, but your hit points are dwindling down and you know the end is near. You then hit GS and for 30 seconds the damage your taking is greatly reduced. It's long enough to make sure to pick up aggro of the mobs that were after your healer for example, and long enough for you to throw a rez on the healer, and still long enough for you to use a Lay on Hands on yourself to heal yourself back to full. Once at full, if you have adequate defenses you can hold your own for a bit until the healer can get other people up and everything gets back on track.

    I have saved a raid once in a while by doing this, and certainly numerous 6-man quests. More commonly, I use it to get a super-charged LoH as I previously described. Between both uses I find that GS is really helpful.
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  11. #31
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    I will be honest, there is not many reasons to play a pure paladin - Of course in PnP there wasn't either. Main reason is that a paladin is front loaded with feats - In fact its not until 18th level that a fighter has more feats than a Paladin, mind you most of these feats are pre-selected.

    In reality it comes down to this:

    Will 28 x Charisma mod vs 30 x Charisma Modifier for LoH be a significant Loss

    Will only carrying 2 Level 4 spells be enough - Popular Level 4 spells being Zeal (Double strike), Deathward (could be replaced with clickie, or most likely comes in mass form if constantly grouped or using hire), Cure Serious Wounds - With Gear/Feats/Enhancements can be a good form of self healing outside of LoH - Con-Op and Torc can make a SP Bar on a paladin virtually full at any time.

    Do you see the Capstone Weapons of Good as a plus to DPS, or as an Enhancement Sink. Personally I like having Good All the time - It has allowed me to look into using Greater Banes and other prefix/suffix. And I am one of those paladins that uses Arti scrolls to add a metal type or extra elemental damage when appropriate. Of course I've been running with more and more Arti's so I've been saving coin on scrolls.

    Flavor - Some just like being pure regardless of the benefits of a splash (shallow or deep)

    ================================================== =================
    It does take practice to know when/where/how to use Glorious Stand. I agree the Cooldown to me is where I see it's problem. It already shares "turn attempts" with Divine Might (+ Damage), Divine Righteousness (100% Extra Hate), Divine Light (not popular, but in some cases a better use of Turns Early on against Undead at lower levels), DoS Shield of Faith and Magic Circle against Evil, KotC Stun demon/Chaotic Evil Outsider and Turn Undead. So my feeling is the limit to its uses to prevent becoming OP already exist as a DoS with even 14-16 Turns needs to appropriately dispense based on burst Damage, Hate, buffing and The defensive benefits of GS. It would also be nice to truly have the ability to run out of Turns in the course of time between shrines. Currently I'm lucky to get through 1/2 between shrines (This is outside Turn Regeneration)

    One of the big advantages I see for a Paladin in US is the regenerating LoH and the Double Strike with Shield Equip'd bonus. I'm still working on the Epic Moment - hard to generate 200 miss/hits when you have Monks EiN the whole room. I've only generated 1 charge worth while tanking Sulu in a hard VoD (it honestly surprised me that between Sulu and his minions even when focused on me, swing at me less then 400 times in the coarse of the whole raid)

    I personally enjoy US on my DoS paladin - Twisting in abilities like Momentum Swing and Double Strike bonuses to improve upon my DPS.

  12. #32
    Community Member Khellendros13's Avatar
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    If I was ever going to make another Paladin or Paladin life, it would most likely be 14/4/2 and use Fury of the Wild mostly to avoid doubling up on haste boost, or once destinies are grinded out, just sit in Dreadnaught.

    Before Epic Destinies, I found Helf 14/4/2 with esos competitive with a Human Barb and pretty much equal gear. With boosts active it out DPS'd a guildies above mentioned barb. It was the only way I could think of at the time to get that sort of DPS from a Pally build.

    If intending to stay in Dreadnaught, the big boost of haste boost is lost, but you still get the feats and Zeal+DF.

    I would go Human for 14 total feats:

    TWF x3
    Cleave
    Great Cleave
    OC
    PA
    IC
    Toughness
    Maximise
    Quicken
    Stunning Blow
    Improved Sunder
    Dodge

    +2 more from Epic levels

    So could possibly go 15 or 16 Pally levels for DM3 and go to Helf for 10% more heal amp or Sneak Attack. Or live in luxury and take Extend and something else. Or CE+Improved Trip.


    That would get you reliable, decent DPS, workable stun/trip and nigh unkillable with LoH and quickened cures + huge evasion.
    Last edited by Khellendros13; 10-29-2012 at 12:39 AM.
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  13. #33
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    This thread caught my attention as my old Drow TWF KoTC (currently pure) Paladin is about to hit 20 and I have had fun with him in the Devil's content. I would like him to be a self-sufficent DPSer into the 20+ content but concerned that there aren't enough Evil Outsiders to make KoTC worthwhile any more...

    Are there enough Evil Outsider named & Bosses to make KoTC useful when it counts or is KoTC pretty much dead in the expansion causing most everyone to switch to DoS?

    I am not sure the best Pre & Destiny to be DPS as a Drow Paladin 20+. I am willing to do a LR+2 though not sure about going more than that at this point.
    Last edited by Nodoze; 10-29-2012 at 09:57 PM. Reason: typo on DoS...

  14. #34
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodoze View Post
    I am not sure the best Pre & Destiny to be DPS as a Drow Paladin 20+.
    Have a look at Arlathen's new thread for a pally 20 (KotC) / Shadowdancer 5 build. It's HE, but pretty easy to adapt to drow; and if you stuck with rapiers instead of khops, you'd have enough feats to squeeze in Overwhelming Critical (or a different set of feats).

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Yeah do you think Turbine is ever going to put out Mounts for Paladins? Paladins should be the fastest class in ddo because they should have a mount but Turbine can not be bothered to put that in the game.
    Maybe in wilderness or some certain quests the mounts would be useful but 99% the time they wouldnt be.

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  16. #36
    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodoze View Post
    This thread caught my attention as my old Drow TWF KoTC (currently pure) Paladin is about to hit 20 and I have had fun with him in the Devil's content. I would like him to be a self-sufficent DPSer into the 20+ content but concerned that there aren't enough Evil Outsiders to make KoTC worthwhile any more...
    I hope this is not considered to be a spoiler, but at least the Demonweb quests contain a number of, well, demons.
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  17. #37
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karl_k0ch View Post
    I hope this is not considered to be a spoiler, but at least the Demonweb quests contain a number of, well, demons.
    Our static group got to the 'Battle for Eveningstar' & were getting ready to go into the UnderDark & DemonWeb but took a detour back to previous/old content to help some friends leverage the Stone of Experience to catch up to us. That is good to know and I don't consider it a spoiler. I am ok with not being super on even the majority of the trash if I can heavily contribute on the majority of the bosses. Any idea what percentage of Bosses in the Web are Evil Outsiders (25%+,50%+, 75%+,?)?

  18. #38
    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodoze View Post
    Any idea what percentage of Bosses in the Web are Evil Outsiders (25%+,50%+, 75%+,?)?
    Both the quests in the demonweb as well as the raid have a number of Evil Outsiders as bosses and mini-Bosses, I'd even go as far to say that the majority of bosses are EOs. But there are also a number of non-EO mobs - Spiders, Elves and Aberations. It's also worth noting boss dps is not the most important thing in CitW.
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  19. #39
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    Have a look at Arlathen's new thread for a pally 20 (KotC) / Shadowdancer 5 build. It's HE, but pretty easy to adapt to drow; and if you stuck with rapiers instead of khops, you'd have enough feats to squeeze in Overwhelming Critical (or a different set of feats).
    Thanks. I subscribed to that thread and will look for his reports back after his 2nd reincarnate. If I was a HE (or there was a racial change via DDO store without re-leveling 1-20) I would more likely try it. For that build the +2 Drow Rapier damage seems piddly compared to the HE Rogue Dilettante 3D6 Sneak Attack so not sure the Drow version would be nearly as good...

    Being stuck with Drow I am thinking that a Fury of the Wild 18+ Paladin with twists using Rapiers to try to max the Adreneline via Crits may be a viable way to go (and maybe that will be even better long term for Drow if they get Tempest via the Enhancement Pass). For now I will have to think more about pure 20 (giving up capstone's 1d6evil,2d6 EO/undead, DM4, DivSacrfice3) with Heavy Armor/PRR verses Evasion & more feats. If I can fit in Maximized/Quickened cures & regenrating LoHs with a Torc & ConOpp item that makes the Evasion less important...
    Last edited by Nodoze; 10-30-2012 at 02:11 PM.

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