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  1. #1
    Community Member elraido's Avatar
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    Default Reason to stay pure anymore

    One of the main reasons to stay a pure paladin was because of the good bypass on their weapons with the extra 3d6 vs evil as a side note. Now with the ability to still get good on weapons and do 3d6 damage from Unyielding Sentinal in one of the stances, is there a reason to stay pure? I know the damage stacks but it is a completely redundant ability if you take both. And lets face it, 3d6 damage that doesn't work on everything in game isn't exactly a huge amount anymore.
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  2. #2
    Community Member Irongutz2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elraido View Post
    One of the main reasons to stay a pure paladin was because of the good bypass on their weapons with the extra 3d6 vs evil as a side note. Now with the ability to still get good on weapons and do 3d6 damage from Unyielding Sentinal in one of the stances, is there a reason to stay pure? I know the damage stacks but it is a completely redundant ability if you take both. And lets face it, 3d6 damage that doesn't work on everything in game isn't exactly a huge amount anymore.
    Well that means u would have to stay in sentinal to have good weapons.......most palis r enjoying dread and fury. It comes down to, what can u do with those two lvls?

    would it make u have enough feats for overwelming crit? or something thats useful?

    I still think the capstone holds weight.
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  3. #3
    Community Member elraido's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irongutz2000 View Post
    Well that means u would have to stay in sentinal to have good weapons.......most palis r enjoying dread and fury. It comes down to, what can u do with those two lvls?

    would it make u have enough feats for overwelming crit? or something thats useful?

    I still think the capstone holds weight.
    I wouldn't say most are taking dread and fury. At least not on my server or the ones I have been grouping with. I am just thinking it would be nice if they did offer a capstone that doesn't over lap with an ability that they already can get. Not only that, but most paladins also have the ability to use arty scrolls and bypass dr that way.
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  4. #4
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    The big issue for pure pallies has always been feats. Epic levels add two more feat slots, which helps; except Turbine also added Overwhelming Crit, which is a pretty obvious feat for a melee char to take if you can squeeze in the Cleave/GC pre-reqs as well.

    At this point, my view is the extra feats from ftr or monk are more useful than the capstone. Which splash you take depends on which you want more: Evasion or extra AC & PRR from hvy armor + tower shield.

  5. #5
    Community Member elraido's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    The big issue for pure pallies has always been feats. Epic levels add two more feat slots, which helps; except Turbine also added Overwhelming Crit, which is a pretty obvious feat for a melee char to take if you can squeeze in the Cleave/GC pre-reqs as well.

    At this point, my view is the extra feats from ftr or monk are more useful than the capstone. Which splash you take depends on which you want more: Evasion or extra AC & PRR from hvy armor + tower shield.
    Well, you don't need to take tower shield as a feat with a paladin if you want AC and DR. One should have a high enough UMD to where you simply use Masters Touch scrolls.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by elraido View Post
    Well, you don't need to take tower shield as a feat with a paladin if you want AC and DR. One should have a high enough UMD to where you simply use Masters Touch scrolls.
    I might be missing a detail, but I always thought typical Paladin with Monk/Fighter splashes were precisely for feats, in particular to do with getting DoS, notsomuch for the sake of proficiency? To what end does a Master's Touch scroll help, is it something entirely different?

    In any event, I don't generally see people getting too excited over not having access to Divine Might 4 (Lv 20 Pally) or Divine Sacrifice 3(Lv 19 Pally), so the hurt cannot be much. The capstone seems less impressive than both of those things as well.
    Last edited by Bombfish; 10-23-2012 at 05:18 PM. Reason: clarity

  7. #7
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    TWF or THF'ing line*3
    PA
    Toughness
    IC:S
    ...
    3 feats left on a helf or horc (cleave, great cleave, overwhelming critical)
    4 feats left on a human (tower shield proficiency for DoS)
    5 feats left on a splash (maximise maybe?)
    6 feats left on a human splash (empower healing?)
    7 feats left on a human splashed with fighter (DM's, OC, Maximise?)

    Seems okay to me, I'm not fond of paladins at all but the extra feats certainly helped and you can be a DPS KotC pure pally with OC and not miss anything crucial, can even go DoS if prepared to give up the advantages of horc/helf.

    A guildy went 14 paladin/4 fighter/2 monk for feat slots on a DoS build, seems a neat idea.
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  8. #8
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    Two levels of monk rock on a paladin, you get evasion and two feats. You miss out on AC and PRR, but evasion more than makes up for it IMO. I did rogue on a 36 point build instead, since you've got the stats to get rogue skills and evasion (miss out on the feats though).

    Fighter is also cool.

    All of these were good choices even before EDs.

  9. #9
    The Hatchery MRMechMan's Avatar
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    2 monk is probably the best choice. 2 feats (toughness+power attack, both very nice) and evasion (on a high save semi-self healing character that often tanks/has agro evasion DOES help situationally quite often). Way of the ____ is a nice little 1 AP enhancement as well. And a nice +3 all saves.

    Fighter gets you tower shields, and 2 feats, that is about all. Rogue gets evasion but no feats.

    2 monk gets both feats and evasion, pretty clear choice from a splashing standpoint for this class.

    19 and 20 paladin don't really compare IMO. Spell slots aren't really a huge issue, capstone is...OK. But not worth 2 feats and evasion.

  10. #10
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMechMan View Post
    2 monk is probably the best choice. 2 feats (toughness+power attack, both very nice) and evasion (on a high save semi-self healing character that often tanks/has agro evasion DOES help situationally quite often). Way of the ____ is a nice little 1 AP enhancement as well. And a nice +3 all saves.

    Fighter gets you tower shields, and 2 feats, that is about all. Rogue gets evasion but no feats.

    2 monk gets both feats and evasion, pretty clear choice from a splashing standpoint for this class.

    19 and 20 paladin don't really compare IMO. Spell slots aren't really a huge issue, capstone is...OK. But not worth 2 feats and evasion.
    Why go to 18 at all then? Guildy went the path of 14 paladin (zeal)/4 fighter (feats and haste boost II)/2 monk (evasion and 2 feats). Glorious Stand sounds good but not sure it's worth giving up 3 feats.
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  11. #11
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bombfish View Post
    In any event, I don't generally see people getting too excited over not having access to Divine Might 4 (Lv 20 Pally) or Divine Sacrifice 3(Lv 19 Pally), so the hurt cannot be much. The capstone seems less impressive than both of those things as well.
    In Ye Olden Dayes, the pally capstone was useful because it made any weapon you wielded good-aligned (in addition to the extra Good dmg); so pick up any ol' silver/cold iron weapon and you had yourself a DR breaker. But between Cannith Crafting, artificer buffs, and Unyielding Sentinel, there's much less need for the pally capstone just for DR purposes; and like I said, pallies are (still) really feat-starved. Apart from the THF or TWF feats, Power Atk, Imp Crit, etc. you want on any melee build, if you're DPS-focused you also want Cleave/GC/Overwhelming Crit; if you're a S&B tank you want Shield Mastery, ISM, and probably Combat Expertise; if you wanna focus on (self-)heals, Quik & Max are practically must-haves; etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by countfitz View Post
    Two levels of monk rock on a paladin, you get evasion and two feats. You miss out on AC and PRR, but evasion more than makes up for it IMO.
    I suppose it's worth pointing that even if you have a monk splash, you could still wear med or hvy armor for those occasions when AC and/or PRR are more useful than Evasion. You'll still benefit from those extra feats and +3 to all saves. So monk doesn't limit your armor options, it expands them.
    Quote Originally Posted by MRMechMan View Post
    Fighter gets you tower shields, and 2 feats, that is about all.
    It also provides +1 STR enh and Haste Boost I (though eventually you could twist in Haste Boost from LD); so technically it adds more to your DPS than monk. Plus if you don't have monk unlocked, that limits your options, of course. I prefer a monk splash for all the reasons given, but that doesn't make ftr a bad alternative.

  12. #12
    The Hatchery MRMechMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    It also provides +1 STR enh and Haste Boost I (though eventually you could twist in Haste Boost from LD); so technically it adds more to your DPS than monk. Plus if you don't have monk unlocked, that limits your options, of course. I prefer a monk splash for all the reasons given, but that doesn't make ftr a bad alternative.
    I suppose I mentioned monk way of the ____ enhancements so +1 str and haste boost 1 deserve mention.

    I know a lot of people think evasion is overrated (including me!) but it is definitely a strong ability no matter how you look at it.

  13. #13
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elraido View Post
    I wouldn't say most are taking dread and fury. At least not on my server or the ones I have been grouping with. I am just thinking it would be nice if they did offer a capstone that doesn't over lap with an ability that they already can get. Not only that, but most paladins also have the ability to use arty scrolls and bypass dr that way.
    All offensive paladins are taking dread and fury and that is about half or more of paladins.
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    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Maybe so they aren't tied to both Unyielding Sentinel and Stand Against the Tide (and the epic AP for Purify and/or Anoint Weapon).

    Then there are also the minor benefits of more level 4 spell slots (it's nice having Death Ward, Zeal, Cure Serious Wounds all the time). If you have the stats/tomes for it, you can also pick up Divine Might IV (not stellar, or necessarily worth 4 AP over DM III, but an option). +1d6 vs. basically everything you care about fighting, DR Good bypass with every weapon you pick up, and +2d6 vs. the biggest, baddest guys we fight is still pretty good.

    If you care about DPS, you don't want to be in US.
    If you care about tanking, you may or may not want to be stuck in SAT stance all the time, since it does basically nothing for you when you're moving, and doesn't provide the same defensive benefits as the other two stances do.
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  15. #15
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    Why go to 18 at all then? Guildy went the path of 14 paladin (zeal)/4 fighter (feats and haste boost II)/2 monk (evasion and 2 feats). Glorious Stand sounds good but not sure it's worth giving up 3 feats.
    There are a number of advantages of at least going to 18 levels of Paladin for a DoS build vs 14.
    -Better LoH
    -Divine Might 3 at level 15
    -3rd tier of DoS grants more hate, more HP, more PRR
    -Glorious Stand

    In regards to Glorious Stand I have to say I shake my head every time I see someone post that Glorious Stand isn't that great...If used properly it is absolutely awesome. Specifically, my Pally has so many defenses now between AC, PRR, 20% blur, and the combat changes that I'm just not seeing spike damage. As a result I can get into big nasty combat and let my hit points dwindle down, down, down, and when it starts getting somewhat low I hit Glorious Stand, which greatly reduces all incoming damage for 30 seconds. I keep an eye on the time and if my hit points get to double digits or the timer is about up I use a Lay on Hands on myself to heal back to full. It's truly an awesome way to self heal or to use in an oh &*&* moment when everything is going south. So yes, it really is that good IMHO. Though if people think it should be an easy button for when tanking a red name, you'll be disappointed.

    To the OP, as always you have to evaluate your own build to determine what you want. I agree the capstone is less important as it used to be, though if you're going to be in another destiny other than unyielding sentinel it will be helpful. Even while in US I still like the extra 3d6 damage. I feel like on my character I have enough defenses, self-healing, and versatility, but I'm always wanting more DPS. So there are some merits to staying pure. Do you remember when the most number of Paladin levels you wanted to take was 11?
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  16. #16
    Community Member elraido's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMechMan View Post
    2 monk is probably the best choice. 2 feats (toughness+power attack, both very nice) and evasion (on a high save semi-self healing character that often tanks/has agro evasion DOES help situationally quite often). Way of the ____ is a nice little 1 AP enhancement as well. And a nice +3 all saves.

    Fighter gets you tower shields, and 2 feats, that is about all. Rogue gets evasion but no feats.

    2 monk gets both feats and evasion, pretty clear choice from a splashing standpoint for this class.

    19 and 20 paladin don't really compare IMO. Spell slots aren't really a huge issue, capstone is...OK. But not worth 2 feats and evasion.
    If you take Rogue first level, and you put any points into int (if you want combat ex, you do) you get a lot more points to put into UMD. Never under underestimate the power of UMD.

    Also, having played a high level evasion paladin, I didn't find it that useful. Vs my main paladin, whose saves are so high, along with his hp, it doesn't matter a whole lot. Even a couple of failed saves, he is still up and I just LOH and I am back up to full. Especially vs any areas with fire. Fireshield clicky, firestorm grieves, etc. Barely take any damage.
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    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elraido View Post
    If you take Rogue first level, and you put any points into int (if you want combat ex, you do) you get a lot more points to put into UMD. Never under underestimate the power of UMD.

    Also, having played a high level evasion paladin, I didn't find it that useful. Vs my main paladin, whose saves are so high, along with his hp, it doesn't matter a whole lot. Even a couple of failed saves, he is still up and I just LOH and I am back up to full. Especially vs any areas with fire. Fireshield clicky, firestorm grieves, etc. Barely take any damage.
    I only cry for evasion when I'm trying to open a freaking door. I really want to get a concentration check to finish the action...
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  18. #18

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    I'm really surprised no one has mention Paladin 20 + Shadowdancer ED as an option. Pure Pally, Capstone, Evasion, and 9D6 Sneak Attack to boot. Twist in LD Haste Boost for Dual Boosting goodness. With Dark Elusion and wearing a Seal of Avithoul, go to frickin town no matter the Aggro.

    Go HElf, Rogue Dilletante, 3x TWF, PA, IC:Slash, Khopesh and Toughness. 2 Epic Feats to suit to taste. I see less reason to cram in Cleaves & OC for +1 Crit Multi when you can just pick Khopesh proficiency instead. Or go Rapier instead and pick up the Cleaves & OC if you really want it.

    Since some of the DCs in Shadowdancer are Dex based instead of Int, you could potentially build some nice offensive options into your Tanky TWF Paladin.

    Speaking of being Tanky, wearing Light Armour and Lithe you still have access to high amounts of Dodge and can throw Shadow Form for more mitigation through 25% Incorporeal. Permanent Immunity to Energy Drain? Yes please.

    But hey, thats just my out-of-box thinking striking again

    Edit:

    Before I get chargrilled flambeau'd into submission, I admit both Fury and LD are possibly more synergystic with Paladin, due to the Paladin being hell bent on getting stars-aligned critical hits.

    But anyway's, screw it, I have a pants Quarterstaff Pally/Monk that I can experiment with. I'll throw this together at the weekend and try it out. Hell, he has a Seal of Avithoul already...
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  19. #19
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralmeth View Post

    In regards to Glorious Stand I have to say I shake my head every time I see someone post that Glorious Stand isn't that great...
    My problem with Glorious Stand is that, as an OH **** button, it's fairly lacking. Yes, there are times where it works, but in, say, a raid fight, if things go sideways, 30 seconds is often not a long enough period of time to get things stabilized. In addition, if things are going badly, you have to decide whether it's bad enough to use GS now, or whether you need to hold onto it in case things go worse soon.

    Short duration, long cooldown abilities work well for something offensive, like Manyshot, because the power is largely in your hands. If you use it now, you aren't necessarily screwed by it not being available 30 seconds from now. At worst, you wait out of combat, or kite for a bit. Unyielding Sovereignty has an immediate benefit, and if you need to use it, you will, and then won't be looking to rely on it for a while.

    Glorious Stand is highly dependent on everything else going on--are the healers dead? Are you taking enough damage right now that it's needed? Is only one healer dead right now, with the possibility of either stabilizing things, or getting worse? Will GS prevent things from getting worse? Will it be better in 30 seconds, or a minute, when things get worse?

    And if you are getting outside healing, it is only semi-useful, as many healers won't necessarily know to swap to Cure Light Wounds for 30 seconds, and then change back, and will just be over-healing you.

    Yes, some of your strategy for using it looks pretty good (and I'll probably try using it in the way you describe, letting HP drop, and then using it to go a bit longer before needing healing, and boosting yourself to full), but in the situations that it appears to be designed for, it's fairly poor.

    It would be better if it's cooldown were dropped to 30 seconds. It would be better if it's duration were dropped to 15 seconds, the cooldown to 0, and could be chained, maybe costing 2 turns instead of 1 per use.
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  20. #20
    The Hatchery MRMechMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elraido View Post
    If you take Rogue first level, and you put any points into int (if you want combat ex, you do) you get a lot more points to put into UMD. Never under underestimate the power of UMD.
    Actually, it is sort of the opposite. At level 1, even if you have 8+, say 2 intx4=40 skillpoints, you can only put 4 total points into any 1 skill.

    If you only care about UMD, it is far better to splash rogue later so that you can dump all 10 points into UMD as a class skill. Less total skillpoints but can put more of them in the one that matters.

    Honestly though, paladins have the charisma that they can hit enough UMD with 11 ranks. 2rogue vs 2monk isn't 2 feats vs UMD, it is 2 feats vs slightly easier to get UMD.


    11 ranks
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    A lot easier to hit with 23 ranks, and maybe frees up some gear slots, but not really needed.

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