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  1. #61
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    For what? Pretty sure the ESoS ends up being better than the upgraded versions anyway, so why bother?
    ESoS is better, by a huge margin. That is a huge issue for people that don't have an ESoS. This next part isn't meant as a whiny complaint, but just my perspective.

    I've wanted to play a 2hf barbarian or fighter for a while. I want to be competitive and contribute to the party in the best way I can. Unfortunately, right now that means having an ESoS, an item that has eluded me since the raid was introduced. Because of the lack of other comparable options, I actually put off leveling a barbarian until the release of the drow greataxe which (in dreadnaught destiny) at least comes close to the power of the ESoS. I'm sure that not everyone feels the way I do, but having one ultra rare item be so much more powerful than other alternatives not only makes other weapons unappealing, it makes entire classes unappealing if you don't have that one weapon. If there were more options that at least came close to the ESoS or in the case of the drow greataxe are situationally better, then you open up options for players who just aren't lucky enough to have an ESoS shard yet.

  2. #62
    The Hatchery DarkForte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    For what? Pretty sure the ESoS ends up being better than the upgraded versions anyway, so why bother?
    You misunderstood me. The _time cost_ of acquiring an eSoS is only higher for now, and even now it might not be for some people, since the amount of people comfortable with running ehVoN is a lot higher than the people comfortable with eveningstar EEs.
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  3. #63
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marewood View Post
    So if you want to complain that the named loot sucks cause it simply lacks certain weapon types that people have specced in - absolutely agree. But basically your points are pretty ridiculous:Are they now? You're counterpoints are even more rediculous. Allow me to explain:

    1) Your starting argument with respect to the last raid (house C, alchemical crafting if i got that right): "The gear in that raid was absolutely useless for two handers, not bad for TWF'ers, amazing for handwrap users, and situationally nice for casters." - The gear options are absolutely similar for all melee weapon types (perhaps with the exception of wraps) so i don't get you point here. What don't you get? Analyze what the alchemical crafting system contributed to every weaponstyle with respect to the weapons that were already available at the time. THF weapons - completely crappy threat range and multiplier attributes for every THF weapon. Versus the esos and the epic xuum, they were inferior. For TWF: the competing weapons at the time were epic chaosblades and greensteel. Now, we have one handers that can gave stunning +10 on a one hander, with doublestrike, guard, and DR breaking capacity that exceeded the potential of the other TWF weapons. Not so with THF, the esos was clearly superior in every respect except when you maybe wanted a stunning 10 slashing weapon. So yes - TWF got a better deal there, monks made it out like bandits, and THF's were still stuck with the undisputed Esos.Originating from the base weapon specs, alchemical weapons are customizable, and extend the base die to 2w[base]Why the hell would you make this point, knowing that the greatsword is STILL x2 19-20, greataxe is STILL 20 x3, and the falchion is STILL 18-20 x2 - all of which are inferior to the esos. Not sure, wheter I got that right, but if your point is: loot is only interesting where it generally or situationally surpasses previously available loot (that was already overpowered in the first place like the eSoS for greatswords), this is a lame joke, basically saying TWF needs better loot 'cause it needs to surpass the already decent lootoptions. Lol. I'm not sure if you are just trolling here. Why is it a lame joke to judge the appeal of new loot by the standards set up by previous gear? Thats absolutely what I do, and will continue to do as long as I play. I want new toys that make me put down my old ones from time to time.

    2) Regarding CITW: "Some pretty nice TWF alternatives, and absolutely terrible THF options." Umm, cool - i can run this again now - there are pretty nice TWF alternatives... Don't know what raid you are talking about - but there aren't more decent single handed weapons than THF options in this raid: Open your eyes, the warhammer and the rapier are both EXCELLANT alternatives if one chooses to spec in them, much more viable than having an esos or even drow greataxe user respec volitionally to the breach, cleaver, or sireth.Longsword is meh, Warhammer is situational stop hand waving, the warhammers power with respect to current TWF weapons is WAYYYYY better than the THF weapons with respect to the esos or exuum, bastard sword is lala but almost nobody is specced for bastards, which also applies to the shortsword (which in fact is pretty decent). Belizarde - forget about it, cause currently it is slashing though it should be piercing and is thus subject to future changelol ok, I'll just forget about it to make your point. Forget that its a x3 keen rapier that surpasses the khopeshes while STILL being proficient (saves another feat) - which would require you to respec once again at that point, or dump it... Certainly not the kind of prospects I like to plan my gear layout upon.
    Regardless of your title, you complain about the lack of a named Khopesh, which also falls in the TWF catagory if i got that right...

    3) THF weapons:
    a) Breach
    b) Cleaver
    c) Sireth
    Those options obviously appear to be mediocre to you. Actually I would have been very very very happy if I had seen a scimitar with any of the mentioned specs.

    So the point is not: CITW lacks TWF options (and TWF options that surpass eSoS in particular), but CITW lacks many weapon options, which many ppl would have liked to have seen in this raid. What makes this worse is that if the type of weapon is not available in this raid (mediocre or not), you are also excluded from the planar focus set bonuses. Anyway, if you are not satisfied with what you get from CITW - welcome to the club. But the flat argument TWF gets the shaft is pure nonsense.

    The dividing lines do not run between THF and other weapons, but between the folks who - depending on their weapon specialization - either get a) decent loot b) not so decent loot c) no loot option at all.
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  4. #64
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    ESoS is better, by a huge margin. That is a huge issue for people that don't have an ESoS. This next part isn't meant as a whiny complaint, but just my perspective.

    I've wanted to play a 2hf barbarian or fighter for a while. I want to be competitive and contribute to the party in the best way I can. Unfortunately, right now that means having an ESoS, an item that has eluded me since the raid was introduced. Because of the lack of other comparable options, I actually put off leveling a barbarian until the release of the drow greataxe which (in dreadnaught destiny) at least comes close to the power of the ESoS. I'm sure that not everyone feels the way I do, but having one ultra rare item be so much more powerful than other alternatives not only makes other weapons unappealing, it makes entire classes unappealing if you don't have that one weapon. If there were more options that at least came close to the ESoS or in the case of the drow greataxe are situationally better, then you open up options for players who just aren't lucky enough to have an ESoS shard yet.
    I strongly disagree with this sentiment. Lacking the best-in-slot weapon for a particular playstyle doesn't mean that the playstyle isn't worth playing. The game isn't so difficult (in most respects) that not having an ESoS means that you cannot compete adequately.

    I share your frustration with the ESoS--I've been running EVoN since it went live, have probably somewhere approaching 200 completions across all my characters (maybe more than that even; it's hard to keep track with TRing resetting the counter), and have never pulled a shard, or won a shard on the roll. My one ESoS shard was acquired through dubious means that I won't elaborate on here. I ended up making the ESoS for my paladin, instead of my barbarian, figuring that my S&B pally needed more help when he swapped to DPS mode than my barbarian did overall. Plus, I like my paladin better in general. Still, not having an ESoS hasn't stopped me from running tough content on my barbarian with an EAG, Lit II falchion and assorted enemy-specific weapons.

    For my barbarian, I'd be happy-ish to get a Cleaver or Breach, but I'm not going to farm CitW for them when the weapon I actually want is in another raid. If My other characters are timered, and a group is up, and I don't feel like buying a raid timer bypass...maybe I'll bring my barbarian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durnak View Post
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    I won't even continue to address the rest of the post, I vehemently disagree with your entire analysis.
    To be fair, gaining a Stunning +10 slashing weapon, that benefits from your Improved Crit (and possibly Kensei spec) was pretty significant at the time. The fact that it also came with some pretty decent additional stats made it even stronger. Not a replacement for the ESoS, per se, but definitely filling a niche that the ESoS couldn't handle really in tough (read: high Fort save) content.

    Now, though, that utility is obviated by the Dun'Robar ring.
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  5. #65
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post

    To be fair, gaining a Stunning +10 slashing weapon, that benefits from your Improved Crit (and possibly Kensei spec) was pretty significant at the time. The fact that it also came with some pretty decent additional stats made it even stronger. Not a replacement for the ESoS, per se, but definitely filling a niche that the ESoS couldn't handle really in tough (read: high Fort save) content.

    Now, though, that utility is obviated by the Dun'Robar ring.
    I never wanted to make one, my DC was plenty sufficient without it - especially if it meant keeping my esos equipped.
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  6. #66
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    The comparisons Durnak is making are basically what existed before and after LOB, as well as what existed before and after CiTW.

    THF - eSOS, eXuum, eAntique. Most optimizers were swinging antique or SOS. THe new stuff in LOB didnt do much for those people. Yeah you could get stun DCs on slashing weapons. but the DPS was way down, and many optimizers doing THF already had huge str scores where the stun DC wasnt always needed.

    TWF - Khopeshes that beat lit2 in damage -AND- had +10 stun. The staple then was lit2 khopesh. Some people had eChaos blades.

    Handwraps. Due to the debacle where shroud crafting was not allowed for wraps, and the fact that TOD rings could be used to add damage, LOB wraps RULED for monks. This raid was the best for monks overall.

    The addition of rings and other weapons with stun DCs even further reduces THF wanting to run LOB.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  7. #67
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durnak View Post
    I never wanted to make one, my DC was plenty sufficient without it - especially if it meant keeping my esos equipped.
    I definitely notice stuff saving vs. Stunning Blow on my barbarian frequently enough that I'd really prefer to have a Stunning +10 in there somewhere. If I ran EE more, it would be basically mandatory, I think.

    Of course, I don't need to concern myself with an alchemical for that now.

    For 2-part raid boss DR, a silver alchemical with tier 2 fire (Righteousness to bypass Good DR) would be pretty nice, maybe. Again, though, any time you have an artificer around, it becomes unnecessary, and if you can get a few of the special crystals from eDA, you also don't need it.
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  8. #68
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    I definitely notice stuff saving vs. Stunning Blow on my barbarian frequently enough that I'd really prefer to have a Stunning +10 in there somewhere. If I ran EE more, it would be basically mandatory, I think.

    Of course, I don't need to concern myself with an alchemical for that now.

    For 2-part raid boss DR, a silver alchemical with tier 2 fire (Righteousness to bypass Good DR) would be pretty nice, maybe. Again, though, any time you have an artificer around, it becomes unnecessary, and if you can get a few of the special crystals from eDA, you also don't need it.
    Pre-expansion stunning 10 was entirely overkill for my fighter. Today, its absolutely mandatory for EE content, but its also conveiently available on a ring now full time.

    Chai - good summary.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durnak View Post
    Pre-expansion stunning 10 was entirely overkill for my fighter. Today, its absolutely mandatory for EE content, but its also conveiently available on a ring now full time.

    Chai - good summary.
    Ahem.

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  10. #70
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osharan_Tregarth View Post
    Ahem.

    Go to your room, young man. RIGHT NOW! And think about what's you've done. And don't come out until you're sorry!
    If you want an appropriate response, please log on.

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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durnak View Post
    If you want an appropriate response, please log on.

    Bleah. Still stuck at work for another four hours.
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    I got a shiny red dragonplate for my THF toon from that raid.

    Having no alternatives to eSOS is boring, fine, and I totally understand the points you made having played with one for the better part of my DDO days, but the raid failed to address far more pressing problems.

    Also Sireth is a bit overlooked in my opinion, for example recently I made a battle cleric - ignoring the discouraging comments my guildmates made every few seconds - with the great plan to finally use the 2nd eSOS I have in my bags for like a year and I ended up TRing it to a build just a little bit different which gave me the ability to abuse Sireth, and I have no regrets doing so, not to mention the previews we saw on the new Henshin Mystic pre and the reworked Acrobat.
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  13. #73
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    Look if you want something better then the ESOS then first the ESOS needs to be nerfed it really is that simple. However too many old vets would ***** and moan about that. The devs long ago said the ESOS was a mistake that would never be repeated. it became the king of the hill and will always be that. If you have one good for you, now stop asking for something better and be happy.

    People who only play to get better loot are the worst kind of MMO player. Me I revel in getting a character who actually feels COMPLETE and then only adventures for the fun of it and to help others in need.

  14. #74
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoda View Post
    I got a shiny red dragonplate for my THF toon from that raid.

    Having no alternatives to eSOS is boring, fine, and I totally understand the points you made having played with one for the better part of my DDO days, but the raid failed to address far more pressing problems.

    Also Sireth is a bit overlooked in my opinion, for example recently I made a battle cleric - ignoring the discouraging comments my guildmates made every few seconds - with the great plan to finally use the 2nd eSOS I have in my bags for like a year and I ended up TRing it to a build just a little bit different which gave me the ability to abuse Sireth, and I have no regrets doing so, not to mention the previews we saw on the new Henshin Mystic pre and the reworked Acrobat.
    The loss of the multiplier and extra AP investment in dreadnaught to expand its useful ness are both very unattractive to me as a serious THF'r. Its a toy, not a serious Esos competitor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    Look if you want something better then the ESOS then first the ESOS needs to be nerfed it really is that simple. However too many old vets would ***** and moan about that. The devs long ago said the ESOS was a mistake that would never be repeated. it became the king of the hill and will always be that. If you have one good for you, now stop asking for something better and be happy.

    People who only play to get better loot are the worst kind of MMO player. Me I revel in getting a character who actually feels COMPLETE and then only adventures for the fun of it and to help others in need.
    No, its not that simple. I won't stop asking for alternatives.
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  15. #75
    Community Member vermentto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Why anyone besides fighters are complaining about the lack of a khopesh is beyond me--Balizarde is 15-20/x3, better than any khopesh (you can argue the other stats separately).
    One pays an exotic feat to get a better weapon and doesnt get it.
    Another guy doesnt pay that feat and get a better weapon.
    Also ,some khopeshes users are not proficient with martial .
    This is , imo , a problem when you pay such an expensive pack, and a problem with the system.
    CITW should have some more items options , imo, in particuliar for one of the most popular weapon choice , who is struck with GS and alchemical ,given the lack of any epic khopesh worth the grind but chaosblade.
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  16. #76
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vermentto View Post
    One pays an exotic feat to get a better weapon and doesnt get it.

    Another guy doesnt pay that feat and get a better weapon.
    And you can use your khopeshes in every scenario for which Balizarde isn't the best thing for you to be swinging (vs. undead, vs. DR of any kind, vs. constructs, and probably in a few other scenarios), and you'll have a better weapon for those situations than people who didn't spend the feat, not to mention for your entire adventuring career leading up to getting a desired item from CitW.


    Also ,some khopeshes users are not proficient with martial .
    Balizarde is a rapier. Which characters would have khopesh proficiency but not be able to wield a rapier? Of those, how many can't cast a spell to cover Martial Proficiency, or use a scroll?
    This is , imo , a problem when you pay such an expensive pack, and a problem with the system.
    CITW should have some more items options , imo, in particuliar for one of the most popular weapon choice , who is struck with GS and alchemical ,given the lack of any epic khopesh worth the grind but chaosblade.
    Yes, CitW should have many more weapons available, and should have non-weapon loot available. My point is merely that there not being a khopesh in the raid is a pretty minor point, and nowhere near a priority for the raid.

    Spending a feat on something, and then getting something that doesn't use that feat doesn't mean you have wasted the feat, or that you can't use the item. Do you complain about weapons that have Keen on them, because you have Improved Critical already in that type, if the Keen property isn't replacing something more relevant for you? No.

    I know more than a few people who combine an Epic Chaosblade with an Epic Brigand's Cutlass, even though the latter is a scimitar. Why? Because it's a good weapon for many of the situations in which a Chaosblade is, and offers some additional relevant bonuses. They aren't crying over having to wield a weapon they didn't spend a feat on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Handwraps. Due to the debacle where shroud crafting was not allowed for wraps, and the fact that TOD rings could be used to add damage, LOB wraps RULED for monks. This raid was the best for monks overall.
    If it ruled, why were crafted wraps better? It only ruled for people that couldn't put the minimal effort into crafting but instead preferred to put the huge time waste and ****** experience of LoB in. I used alchemical when I needed a decent stunner or was just too lazy to switch to a better set of wraps, but usually a large guild augment metal wrap of greater bane or a smiter or mabar > any alchemical. Even a good risia burst wrap was pretty competitive/better than alchemical.

  18. #78
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oweieie View Post
    If it ruled, why were crafted wraps better? It only ruled for people that couldn't put the minimal effort into crafting but instead preferred to put the huge time waste and ****** experience of LoB in. I used alchemical when I needed a decent stunner or was just too lazy to switch to a better set of wraps, but usually a large guild augment metal wrap of greater bane or a smiter or mabar > any alchemical. Even a good risia burst wrap was pretty competitive/better than alchemical.
    Well, the alchemicals were out before metal wraps were prevalent, and they make the best Stunners with +10 and +1 from alchemical Wis +2. That they also have some pretty good DPS bonuses, can be made into +7s, or designed to bypass more than one type of DR as well are big bonuses. When AC was relevant for a monk, also getting your +4 Insightful on your wraps was a pretty good space-saver.

    Plus, making a tier II alchemical wrap is less time consuming and tedious than grinding up the crafting for the really good Cannith wraps. If you have the crafting already, then, yeah, not a whole lot of reason to bother. I know that mine have gone to the bank, since +5 AC isn't all that important, and I'd rather lose 1 to my DC and use the Grave Wrappings.
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  19. #79
    Community Member Bacab's Avatar
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    Default 2 words can fix this whole ESoS problem...

    2 Words can fix this whole ESoS argument...

    Epic
    Carnifex

    Make it happen!
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  20. #80
    Community Member vermentto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    And you can use your khopeshes ...( bla bla bla bla ) ..... a weapon they didn't spend a feat on.
    You missed the point. Whole wall of text for nothing. :
    1) One uses martial , pays nothing , and get enhanced weapon profiles (damage or crit) he should not have (balizarde ,esos , etc ..)
    One pays a feat to get these enhanced crit/base damage profiles ,and dont get them.
    So the first had the equivalent of a free feat and the other wasted one.
    there is a problem.
    Period.

    2) Maybe it is not a priority for you , but you are not the whole community.
    khopesh is a popular weapon ,and it is not "crying" to hope for one raid weapon.
    U14 was a huge update ,but only bring weapons for some builds, not all of them.
    Compared to good big updates (shroud, sands ,..) it fails on that point.
    Too bad since it is a nice pack to run.

    3)"i know people that" , "is beyond me" ,etc....
    We do not care about what you feel , who you know , etc .
    You have to demonstrate with logic to have a point.

    I put you on ignore list :
    You are similar ,as most of 10K+ posters but a few ones , to pop-pups on internet.
    And i use the same remedy. Bye.
    *click*

    Let's go back to the topic,aka THF weapons and lack of lootz for some builds.
    I may be wrong but ....
    There is a problem called eSoS.
    It is top DPS and, due to its DR breaking power and non-elemental damage type ,
    it is hard to make a situational weapon worth swapping.
    Its main competitor ,the eAGA , is also a DR breaking weapon ,and mostly unresisted damage.
    The first is a bit rare ,the second pretty common.
    The problems created are the same.

    The solutions i see :
    1 ) Devs keep the current damage range.
    Nerf of eSoS , by removing the DR breaking abilities , and eAGA , by nerfing its dps , then releasing new items that are better vs some enemies..

    2 ) Devs forget about eSoS/eAGA being the best.
    Then they can release other weapons ,better than them.
    But if they don't want to have the same problem again ,they should try to make sure no weapon will be the "new always best in slot weapon".

    3) Keeping eSoS and eAGA as they are but adding a TH bludgeoning,
    like a very powerful maul. And give some DR/Bludgeon to enemies in existing packs.

    Outside of these options , i have doubts any THweap will ever be interesting.
    So yeah , there was a very low chance to have a good 2 hander in CITW.
    astriane >clc18/mk2 - altena >barb18/ftr2 - Armcore >arty 20 - Assiriane >FvS 20 - Metaloid >wiz17 -
    base of operations : cannith - "shinies ! more shinies ! " -
    A Tribe Called Zerg - RAAAAWR

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