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  1. #1181
    Community Member BitkaCK2's Avatar
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    Okay, 1200+ posts discussing how fix the guild renown system, specifically decay, and I am amazed there isn't more support for scrapping decay altogether. I still cannot, for the life of me, understand why people feel it's needed.

    I've seen 3 main opinions as to why we need it:

    1) It's needed to prevent a guild leader from grieving other players.
    This I almost understand. In a worst case scenario a guild leader recruits a bunch of people to level the guild and then boots them once them once it reaches level 100. Why someone would do something so stupid and reprehensible is beyond me however the possibility of it happening shouldn't be denied. The Hive will take care of aforementioned GL and his guild would be thoroughly blacklisted and have near zero chance of grouping or raiding again. They are also left to pay for ship amenities on their own, either by dumping plat or spending TP. Meanwhile the other people will either join a new guild or reform their guild and level it back to 100. A PITA perhaps but made easier without decay. The system as is would punish the grieving GL for booting active members and since this could be considered a rare or extreme case any further 'fix' for it would most likely do more harm than good.

    2) Without decay everyone would have a level 100 guild complete with the ship and it's buffs.
    I don't mean to sound snarky but this one goes in my "So what?" category. If you're worried about this from an "easy button" perspective I would mention a) there are already enough "easy buttons" in the game to choke a goat and one more, especially one that is access to ship buffs, isn't going to break the game and b) for many small guilds getting to level 100 won't be easy even without decay. So what's the worst that can happen? Okay so everyone has a huge ship with all the buffs. Personally the size of someone else's ship is none of my business however it does mean that more plat will be dumped and/or more TP spent on amenities. It also means more people showing up for quests with their own ship buffs and less time wasted trying to get ship invites. Seems pretty win-win to me. I might be missing something but still not seeing the bad here.

    3) Building and maintaining a level 100 guild is an achievement that's not for everyone.
    I would agree that building a level 100 guild is an achievement but it seems to me maintaining it is more like a war between numbers and people. Booting someone from your guild to fight decay is not an achievement it's a casualty of the aforementioned war. Feeling like you have to log in to farm renown to fight decay is not an achievement, it's a soldier reporting for duty to do his job. Okay, maybe the last two war analogies are over the top, perhaps a better analogy would be firing an employee and logging in to your second job. If a guild didn't have to grind renown they could be free to work on real achievements such as <insert achievement idea here>.

    Now maybe you're the type that likes to be recognized for their achievements and being part of the few level 100 guilds that maintain that level fulfills that need. I get and respect that but there should be better ways to achieve as a guild then grinding renown. I have an idea that utilizes the recently introduced Monster Manual. Add a Guild Achievement Manual with achievement ideas taken directly from the Achievement Forum and the community. Instead of all those dang quest starters on all those signs, post the top guild achievements there. If renown decay is scrapped those devs could work on the Guild Achievement Manual thing, it would have to be more fun then having your head spun by all those formulas. Please note; this idea is raw, off the the top of my head, and begging for refinement.

    Anyway, just a few more thoughts from "Scrap decay entirely" camp,
    bitkaCK2
    Last edited by BitkaCK2; 11-11-2012 at 02:15 AM.
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  2. #1182
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    Quote Originally Posted by BitkaCK2 View Post
    Okay, 1200+ posts discussing how fix the guild renown system, specifically decay, and I am amazed there isn't more support for scrapping decay altogether. I still cannot, for the life of me, understand why people feel it's needed.
    I think there is much support for eliminating decay entirely. I certaily would be happy with that outcome. I have strongly advocated for exactly that in these forums for many months.

    But most of my posts in this thread have been about defending the very large reduction in decay that the devs are now testing. This is a huge step in the right direction and it fixes the most damaging aspects of decay for many guilds and players. Since the devs are testing it now, it seems to be a very realistic possibility. After so many months of getting nowhere against this problem, the real possibility of such an overwhelmingly positive change is very encouraging. So my top priority is convincing as many people as I can (including DDO's devs) that we should NOT undo the good that has been done with this change in decay policy. Once that is accomplished, and I can be relatively sure we will not go back to the awful anti-social old decay system, then I am willing to argue that we should go the rest of the way and and eliminate decay entirely. So you and I are on the same side here, but my priority is to secure what we have gained before trying to advance further.
    Last edited by Tshober; 11-11-2012 at 05:03 AM.

  3. #1183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tshober View Post
    So you and I are on the same side here, but my priority is to secure what we have gained before trying to advance further.
    I don't want it to be harder for large guilds again.

    But I would really like a system that doesn't hugely favor one guild structure over another, so players can play how they want to - without getting bullied by game mechanics making one choice insanely better than another, just due to guild structure.
    It's definitely an N-word.

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    Simple question:

    How long is the current test going to last. I can't make any valid decisions if it all of a sudden reverts to the old system inside of two weeks.

    And why be so secretive with hows it's calculated. Give us some hard numbers to work with to let us make informed decisions
    Last edited by Dav; 11-11-2012 at 06:36 AM.

  5. #1185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    Simple question:

    How long is the current test going to last. I can't make any valid decisions if it all of a sudden reverts to the old system inside of two weeks.

    And why be so secretive with hows it's calculated. Give us some hard numbers to work with to let us make informed decisions
    DEV tracker is your friend.

    There has not been any secret of how decay is done, old or new.

    Formula has been posted for a very long time.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
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  6. #1186
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    Enoach's point is valid that the small guld bonus should be part of the equation. If you multiply # of players * guild bonus it gets you to the effective renown earning power of a guild

    Here is a slight tweak that takes this into account. This is based on the old system. In all cases the decay is less than or equal to what is proposed in the test system:



    For guilds with 90 or more accounts this would match the test method
    For guilds with <90 accounts, they would see a reduction in decay such that decay is reduced by ~ 80% for all guilds. In all cases they would get less decay than the test method.

    Here is the impact for some various guild sizes. The # in parenthes takes into account the guild bonus and the reduction in renown required by the guild. The proposed system column is what I am proposing as an alternative to the test system. The test system based benefits solely on size - bigger is better.



    If the guild bonus curve is flattened so that all guilds size 1-12 get a 200% bonus rather than bell curve centered around 6 members, the decay chart would like this:



    Again the goal of this would be to help out small casual guilds that stand in place get the same type of benefit large casual guilds received, but all guilds would benefit relative to the old system. The key is evening out the punitive decay aspect of the guild system and not the leveling aspect.

    I am not sure if the devs will even see this, but if they do I hope they consider this system or something similar as an alternative that recognizes that small casual guilds also need some help. I believe small guilds have a place in ddo and am hopeful Turbine believes that also.

    It would be great if they lowered ship and amenity requirements by 15-20 levels as well since that is what most people care about more than the level itself.
    Last edited by slarden; 11-11-2012 at 09:45 AM.
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  7. #1187
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    As long as they do something to similarly lower the decay for smaller guilds as well I dont terribly mind. But lowering to the point where its almost gone for larger guilds and leaving smaller guilds unchanged is a bad idea.

    Maybe the simplest way is just to significantly raise the bonus for smaller guilds but many other ways are possible as well.

  8. #1188
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    As long as they do something to similarly lower the decay for smaller guilds as well I dont terribly mind. But lowering to the point where its almost gone for larger guilds and leaving smaller guilds unchanged is a bad idea.

    Maybe the simplest way is just to significantly raise the bonus for smaller guilds but many other ways are possible as well.
    Completely agree with you!!! I have a small guild and would like to keep it that way. We have a core group of end game content players and just because we are a small guild we get no help on the decay system because of the new one being placed into the system is rediculius, if they are going to give the advantage to the bigger guilds that just sit out in the harbor or korthos recruiting new players just to build their ranks and guild size. How is that fair to the guilds that's actually take the time to run with players, and make them an addition to there guild???? Because you see that happening with a lot of the guilds on Sarlona, people in guilds that are notorious for it, and we all know who they are. Literally just sit in Korthos and The Harbor and spam gen chat saying send us a tell to join our guild. Increasing their guild size and getting the lesser decay amount.
    So how I ask is giving advantages to larger guilds helpful? It's not if it gives advantages to large guilds like that... Funny thing is about those guilds, the guild mates don't even know the other players in that guild. Case in point 3 players join my pug a while back. Got to the quest and all 3 typed in "Wow, look guys we are all in the same guild, that's cool!!" lol I mean really? Anyways enough of me ranting, what do I know, I've only been playing this game for lil over half a decade

    But, all in all. Make it balanced, weigh the pros and cons and you should give a renown penalty for too many new account joins to a guild, because I can see a lot of invites happening if this new renown effect comes into play... No more than 1-2 new player additions to a guild per day, if not just 1. Because, all larger guilds will get the advantage because they will be abusing the system. And the lil guys will point blank be getting the short end of the draw. Because, of an unfair advantage and the unwillingness to go an troll for new players and blind invite them to their guilds...

    Overall, this will pretty much be the end of small guilds. The decay and the renown effect for level gained will pretty much make it impossible to level... Us smaller guilds have always worked harder for guild levels and now we are being penalized... This is unfair!!!!

    Witchies

    (also, sorry again for ranting, I'm a girl! I am allowed!!! Lol)
    Last edited by cherokee83pride; 11-11-2012 at 09:42 AM.

  9. #1189
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    Quote Originally Posted by cherokee83pride View Post
    Completely agree with you!!! I have a small guild and would like to keep it that way. We have a core group of end game content players and just because we are a small guild we get no help on the decay system because of the new one being placed into the system is rediculius, if they are going to give the advantage to the bigger guilds that just sit out in the harbor or korthos recruiting new players just to build their ranks and guild size. How is that fair to the guilds that's actually take the time to run with players, and make them an addition to there guild???? Because you see that happening with a lot of the guilds on Sarlona, people in guilds that are notorious for it, and we all know who they are. Literally just sit in Korthos and The Harbor and spam gen chat saying send us a tell to join our guild. Increasing their guild size and getting the lesser decay amount.
    So how I ask is giving advantages to larger guilds helpful? It's not if it gives advantages to large guilds like that... Funny thing is about those guilds, the guild mates don't even know the other players in that guild. Case in point 3 players join my pug a while back. Got to the quest and all 3 typed in "Wow, look guys we are all in the same guild, that's cool!!" lol I mean really? Anyways enough of me ranting, what do I know, I've only been playing this game for lil over half a decade

    But, all in all. Make it balanced, weigh the pros and cons and you should give a renown penalty for too many new account joins to a guild, because I can see a lot of invites happening if this new renown effect comes into play... No more than 1-2 new player additions to a guild per day, if not just 1. Because, all larger guilds will get the advantage because they will be abusing the system. And the lil guys will point blank be getting the short end of the draw. Because, of an unfair advantage and the unwillingness to go an troll for new players and blind invite them to their guilds...

    Overall, this will pretty much be the end of small guilds. The decay and the renown effect for level gained will pretty much make it impossible to level... Us smaller guilds have always worked harder for guild levels and now we are being penalized... This is unfair!!!!


    Witchies

    (also, sorry again for ranting, I'm a girl! I am allowed!!! Lol)
    Well, as a L85 Guild and being small, you have;

    You have 10 Guilds of the same size or smaller that are your level of Higher.
    You have 10 Guilds larger then yours of higher Guild level.

    So, it is equal in regards to members and level.

    The highest Guild on your server is a 8 man L100, next is a 31 man L100, and to round out the top 3 is a 47 man, L96. There is only 1 guild in the top 5 that are larger then yours and not by much.

    In the fact that small and very small guilds top the leaderboard should show you that this is not the end of small guilds on sarlona.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

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  10. #1190
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    Quote Originally Posted by cherokee83pride View Post
    But, all in all. Make it balanced, weigh the pros and cons and you should give a renown penalty for too many new account joins to a guild, because I can see a lot of invites happening if this new renown effect comes into play... No more than 1-2 new player additions to a guild per day, if not just 1. Because, all larger guilds will get the advantage because they will be abusing the system. And the lil guys will point blank be getting the short end of the draw. Because, of an unfair advantage and the unwillingness to go an troll for new players and blind invite them to their guilds...
    Totally do not agree with this in any way shape or form, and I do not support this idea, whatsoever.

  11. #1191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Well, as a L85 Guild and being small, you have;

    You have 10 Guilds of the same size or smaller that are your level of Higher.
    You have 10 Guilds larger then yours of higher Guild level.

    So, it is equal in regards to members and level.

    The highest Guild on your server is a 8 man L100, next is a 31 man L100, and to round out the top 3 is a 47 man, L96. There is only 1 guild in the top 5 that are larger then yours and not by much.

    In the fact that small and very small guilds top the leaderboard should show you that this is not the end of small guilds on sarlona.
    Again, you are looking at the 1% high achievers and ignoring the majority of small guilds that are lower than your typical large guilds.

    Saying that most high level guilds are small and therefore leveling is easy for small guilds is like saying since most professional baseball players are over 6 feet tall it is easy to be a professional baseball player if you are over 6 feet tall. The logic doesn't work.
    Last edited by slarden; 11-11-2012 at 10:42 AM.
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  12. #1192
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    Quote Originally Posted by eris2323 View Post
    Totally do not agree with this in any way shape or form, and I do not support this idea, whatsoever.
    And you are probably one of those guilds that spam invites to new players buffing your account size for the guild lol

  13. #1193
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    Again, you are looking at the 1% high achievers and ignoring the majority of small guilds that are lower than your typical large guilds.
    High achievers are what the developers look at in terms of how high they are likely to keep the bar at. It is possible that some small guilds will start increasing in size due to this change. The assertion that this will pretty much eliminate all small guilds... is not likely due to the intrinsic appeal of having a separate tight knit group.

    Assuming a direct correlation between increasing the number of members and the amount of renown gathered under the new system, this should "in-theory" directly translate into guilds of smaller numbers no longer outnumbering guilds of higher numbers past a certain guild level before the end of this test.

    I do hope that this is true so that smaller guilds will get a larger reduction in decay and a larger renown bonus. However, if the data does not support this and instead show that all guilds seem to be progressing at the same rate despite the level of membership... I predict we're not going to see any change.

    The theoretical earning potential of a guild does increase with more members, however with the added factor of the difficulty of realistically maintaining a consistent level of renown gain with a higher level of membership, I expect there is a diminishing value at higher numbers.

    I would be open to an "alliance" mechanism in game so that you can keep your guild and separate ship but join with another guild in terms of pooling with them for joint renown gain.

    It's just a thought.
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  14. #1194
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    Again, you are looking at the 1% high achievers and ignoring the majority of small guilds that are lower than your typical large guilds.

    Saying that most high level guilds are small and therefore leveling is easy for small guilds is like saying since most professional baseball players are over 6 feet tall it is easy to be a professional baseball player if you are over 6 feet tall. The logic doesn't work.
    No, I was sampling one server. The posters, and my, server.

    So, lets make decay fair for all Guilded then, shall we?

    No more Decay

    No more Renown Bonuses.

    Guild level rests ONLY on the guildmembers ability to pull renown from chests or kills.

    There, fair for everyone. Maybe set a min Guild size of 10?

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cherokee83pride View Post
    And you are probably one of those guilds that spam invites to new players buffing your account size for the guild lol
    No, our guild is already QUITE large - and we wouldn't even be able to do that, if we wanted to.

    I see you posted solely to insult me. Too bad you are incorrect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    No, I was sampling one server. The posters, and my, server.

    So, lets make decay fair for all Guilded then, shall we?

    No more Decay

    No more Renown Bonuses.

    Guild level rests ONLY on the guildmembers ability to pull renown from chests or kills.

    There, fair for everyone. Maybe set a min Guild size of 10?
    The renown bonus makes its so that small guild members (6 members in this example compared to a large guild of 200) only have to earn 8x more renown to level up per account intead of 32x. I don't mind if they want to reduce the guild bonus some in exchange for some reduced decay, but I don't think there is any reason to get rid of it completely since small guilds are already at a disadvantage to level up even with the guild bonuses.

    As long as they have ships and amenities tied to level, it only makes sense that guilds of all sizes have a fair chance to gain those levels. Reducing decay is a good start and it should be done for guilds of all sizes.

    Stopping the power gamer guilds is unrealistic. They will always find a way to game the system and succeed. It's important to them and they will make it happen. Harming all small guilds to stop them is non-sensical.

    Reducing the small guild bonus a little and lowering the decay would offset this some without hurting the other 99% of small guilds that have no chance to get to level 90 and the large majority of small guilds that will never even make it to 60.

    If your goal is to slow down all small guilds I think that is a bad goal. Why not focus on the issue at hand - reducing the decay penalty for all guilds so casuals and less active people have a home in guilds of all sizes.
    Last edited by slarden; 11-11-2012 at 01:14 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    DEV tracker is your friend.

    There has not been any secret of how decay is done, old or new.

    Formula has been posted for a very long time.

    Actually there are a few secrets, or at least not well known features. Not about the formula itself but about some of the peripheral rules. One of the devs chimed in and stated that the direct renown penalty for kicking inactive players was reduced after 1 month and eliminated after 6 months, and had been that way all along. But he declined to answer when I asked how much it was "reduced" after 1 month. The announcement of this change mentioned that the "ransack" code for getting renown had been reduced from 7 levels to 3 levels. I was not able to find either of those things about the old system documented. Perhaps they were but I would hardly say they were well known.

  18. #1198
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    Quote Originally Posted by cherokee83pride View Post
    But, all in all. Make it balanced, weigh the pros and cons and you should give a renown penalty for too many new account joins to a guild, because I can see a lot of invites happening if this new renown effect comes into play... No more than 1-2 new player additions to a guild per day, if not just 1. Because, all larger guilds will get the advantage because they will be abusing the system. And the lil guys will point blank be getting the short end of the draw. Because, of an unfair advantage and the unwillingness to go an troll for new players and blind invite them to their guilds...
    Penalties for joining a guild? You have to be joking. Every guild with more than 10 accounts got a reduction in decay with the new system being tested, versus the old decay system. Every guild that did not get a decay reduction already gets a large small guild bonus every time they loot a chest. And still you want penalties applied to other guilds for having players join them?

    I'm sorry, but I don't think guilds should be greatly rewarded for being unpopular. Nor do I believe guilds should be greatly punished for being popular. There are already penalties in place, even under the new decay system, that punish guilds when members leave them. If these large guilds are abusing their members, as you claim they are, then they will get hit with those penalties when their members leave the guild that is abusing them. If, however, they like the large guild and they stay and help it grow, then there is no reason to punish them or their guild. This whole mem about large guilds that are willing to take in new players MUST be abusing them, is just a lot fear mongering. The new decay system being tested now, actually removes the incentives that were present in the old decay system for large guilds to boot their members! Now the members don't cost any extra renown so there is no incentive to remove them. The new decay system always rewards inviting people, and NEVER rewards (only punishes) kicking people. The old decay system rewarded inviting members at low levels and rewarded kicking members at high levels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tshober View Post
    Penalties for joining a guild? You have to be joking. Every guild with more than 10 accounts got a reduction in decay with the new system being tested, versus the old decay system. Every guild that did not get a decay reduction already gets a large small guild bonus every time they loot a chest. And still you want penalties applied to other guilds for having players join them?

    I'm sorry, but I don't think guilds should be greatly rewarded for being unpopular. Nor do I believe guilds should be greatly punished for being popular. There are already penalties in place, even under the new decay system, that punish guilds when members leave them. If these large guilds are abusing their members, as you claim they are, then they will get hit with those penalties when their members leave the guild that is abusing them. If, however, they like the large guild and they stay and help it grow, then there is no reason to punish them or their guild. This whole mem about large guilds that are willing to take in new players MUST be abusing them, is just a lot fear mongering. The new decay system being tested now, actually removes the incentives that were present in the old decay system for large guilds to boot their members! Now the members don't cost any extra renown so there is no incentive to remove them. The new decay system always rewards inviting people, and NEVER rewards (only punishes) kicking people. The old decay system rewarded inviting members at low levels and rewarded kicking members at high levels.
    Guilds aren't small because they are unpopular. Guilds are small because that is what the people in the guild want. As demonstrated before the small guild bonus doesn't even begin to cover the extra renown a small guild must earn to level up so I think it's ridiculous to mention it as an "advantage". It's there so that small guilds still require more to level up per account, but that amount is something reasonable for a small guild.

    When people point out the obvious inequity of the test system I don't think it's reasonable to call it "fear mongering". The disparity is actually ocurring under the test system - it isn't something people are saying might occur.

    The test system like the original system has its problems. It would be great if we can provide decay reductions for all guilds as it's a punitive system and it makes no sense to punish small guilds more than large guilds. Small guilds struggle from the same type of issues that large guilds suffer from. Large guilds and small guilds both may dispel members for inactivity because of the decay burden.
    CC Casting Druid: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...C-Summer-Build
    Shiradi Wiz Plan for 1st Lifers: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...r-First-Lifers
    U25 Patch 1 Dex Halfling Assassin Build: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...x-Assassin-1-0
    Warlock DC Caster: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ld-Blast-Build

    Several characters on Sarlona all starting with "Rand" in the Guild "Guardians of House Cannith". My main four characters are Randowl (18 rogue 2 artificer mechanic - hope to go back to DC casting some day), Randslar (Bard 14 / Fighter 4 / Rogue 2 Swashbuckler), Randek (Druid CC Caster 17/Fvs 3) and Randomall (Rogue 20 assassin).

  20. #1200
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    When people point out the obvious inequity of the test system I don't think it's reasonable to call it "fear mongering". The disparity is actually ocurring under the test system - it isn't something people are saying might occur..
    There is a huge difference between pointing out perceived inequities in the system and claiming that large guilds are "abusing" the system and "abusing" their members and calling for penalties for joining guilds based on all of the alleged "abuse". And, yes all this abuse talk is nothing more than fear mongering that has no basis at all in how the old and new decay systems actually work.

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