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  1. #821
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viisari View Post
    That is what it means to you and specifically you. It does not not mean that to every nor should it mean that to everyone.

    The community in this game is not as clear cut as you seem to indicate either, there are multiple levels to it and you're operating on one of them. Me and the people I mostly associate with operate on a different level and don't generally go looking for newbies to help, that's not why we play the game. Me and most of the people I play with will however answer questions and give advice if we're asked or see someone doing something silly, some even do in fact go out their way to look for newbies to help.

    That does not mean nor should it mean that we've some kind of an oblication to take more people in our guilds than we wish to. Heck, our guild page in MyDDO says: "Quality over quantity", what makes you think we'd want more people in our guild? Our guild is not there to help new people, our guild is formed on the idea of gathering a bunch of people who share the same ideas while also being very good players. There are in fact people we'd like to recruit or would recruit if they wanted to join, but those are people some of our guildies have known since before you had even heard about this game or people we've just played a lot with during the course of several years.

    Your mindset about how there are or should be only one kinds of guilds is simply flat out wrong, and just because you do not see or understand the community as a whole doesn't mean these guilds are not contributing to it.
    You are quite welcome to have your small, elite guild.

    I just do not believe guilds without a certain minimum number of players should be getting a bonus to offset the choice of having a small, elite guild.

    I also do not think it is fair for a guild of 6 to keep pace with a guild of 50. To me, it makes no sense at all.

    It's okay to disagree.

    Simply calling me wrong just makes people realize that YOUR opinion isn't the only correct one, either. It's quite obvious we have different opinions, and yours aren't any more valid than mine.

    In short, I believe YOU are flat out wrong - YOU believe I am flat out wrong.

    We have, what is called in polite society, a difference of opinions.

    I find it amusing that you still find ways to insult though...

    "but those are people some of our guildies have known since before you had even heard about this game or people we've just played a lot with during the course of several years"

    It's nice to have your own OPINION, isn't it - even when it's not based at all in fact?

    Stop being elitist. And stop being rude on the forums.

  2. #822
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    Quote Originally Posted by eris2323 View Post
    I find it amusing that you still find ways to insult though...

    "but those are people some of our guildies have known since before you had even heard about this game or people we've just played a lot with during the course of several years"
    This was not addressed to you but I fail to see how it is insulting.

    If the join date ninjadwarf_uk has is when he started playing then it is stating a fact. If it is not then it can still be true because we have people in our guild who've played together since before DDO even existed.

    Unless he had heard about this game well over a decade ago? In that case you'd probably be correct.

  3. #823
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viisari View Post
    This was not addressed to you but I fail to see how it is insulting.

    If the join date ninjadwarf_uk has is when he started playing then it is stating a fact. If it is not then it can still be true because we have people in our guild who've played together since before DDO even existed.

    Unless he had heard about this game well over a decade ago? In that case you'd probably be correct.
    All I ask, is you stop insulting me on the forums. Including veiled insults that I am a 'noob', or for some reason you think (because of forum join date) that I am somehow not worth as much as you. Or that ninjadwarf 's opinion is not as as valid as yours, either.

    Is that too much to ask? Keeping it civil? Not insulting people? Not telling people 'look how old i am, i must be right, i've been here forever, and because your forum date is newer than mine, obviously i am cooler than you'

    Please kindly start treating the other forum users with respect.

  4. #824
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    Quote Originally Posted by eris2323 View Post
    All I ask, is you stop insulting me on the forums. Including veiled insults that I am a 'noob', or for some reason you think (because of forum join date) that I am somehow not worth as much as you. Or that ninjadwarf 's opinion is not as as valid as yours, either.

    Is that too much to ask? Keeping it civil? Not insulting people? Not telling people 'look how old i am, i must be right, i've been here forever, and because your forum date is newer than mine, obviously i am cooler than you'

    Please kindly start treating the other forum users with respect.
    Please stop insulting small guilds by saying they're not "real" guilds, and do not deserve to be able to advance.

    Also, do not call us "powergamers", obviously a term you think of as synonymous with "bad persons".
    It's definitely an N-word.

  5. #825
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    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    this was not meant to be facetious or flippant. i want someone to come in here and really tell me exactly why my small guild is now defunct? i really don't understand what the issue is. why is ANY small guild doomed?
    nothing has changed for the small guild. NOTHING. let me reiterate that one more time... NOTHING. we will gain and lose renown at EXACTLY THE SAME RATE as before. large guilds will gain at the same rate as before... they just get less of a kick-in-the-b***s for loss now. and yeah, that means that a semi-active large guild will level up faster than a semi-active small guild. SO WHAT.

    Pointless Waste of Time - Leader of Unbroken Chain... 62nd level guild of only about 6 actives currently... many of the levels were gained with only 2-3 actives... and still chuggin' steadily along, TYVM.
    I don't agree that nothing changed. First of all they increased the renown penalty you receive when you gain a level. The developer said it was less than 50% but we don't know the exact amount. I assume it is in the 40-45% renown reduction range based on how it was worded but I don't know for sure. He said it always existed but I never noticed it previously - we really noticed it during the test. I didn't even know about the changes until I inquired about our bad renown drops and someone informed me it was due to the guild changes.

    So small guilds have the same decay to make up for as before, but now after they level they get less renown for a day but decay still kicks in. So immediately after leveling small guilds need to earn another 10k or so renown (depending on the level) before the end of the day while there is an active renown penalty reducing renown drops to 60% of the usual amount (Best guess based on vague devloper wording). It seemed alot more severe to me during the first test, but I take the developers word for it. If you don't earn the extra renown your guild drops, you continue to suffer reduced renown drops for the 24 hour period. Then when you level back up again you are again stuck in the treadmill. Guilds will have to plan their leveling around this unless they generate so much extra renown that it doesn't matter. Large guilds will have so many more people working on the same amount of decay that a small guild has to make up for.

    Secondly it makes no sense for people to work hard to level up a small guild when they can just join a mega guld and get an easy button. It will make it harder for small guilds to recruit and keep people where they can do nothing and achive better results. Everyone will just want to join a megaguild where they already get instant ship buffs, an easy leveling path and advancing levels is easier.
    Last edited by slarden; 10-31-2012 at 07:29 AM.
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  6. #826
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    Please stop insulting small guilds by saying they're not "real" guilds, and do not deserve to be able to advance.

    Also, do not call us "powergamers", obviously a term you think of as synonymous with "bad persons".
    Why would I think a power-gamer is a bad person?

    I don't.

    I don't believe glorified pugs should be getting a guild bonus. That's all. You can still advance.

    I don't believe small guilds of 6 players should ever even come close to the advancement of a large guild, but that doesn't mean I don't think they should gain levels.

  7. #827
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    Quote Originally Posted by eris2323 View Post
    All I ask, is you stop insulting me on the forums. Including veiled insults that I am a 'noob', or for some reason you think (because of forum join date) that I am somehow not worth as much as you. Or that ninjadwarf 's opinion is not as as valid as yours, either.
    Where did I imply that you're a noob? I don't recall doing such a thing. Nor did I imply that forum join date is a measure of someones worth. And none of those comments were addressed to you in the first place unless you and ninjadwarf_uk are the same person. All I did was to explain how my own guild works, what ideas it was formed around, how our recruiting process works like and why it works like that.

    The reason why ninjadwarf_uk is wrong is because there is absolutely nothing in this game that dictates or even hints at how guilds should work, what ideas they should be formed around, what sizes they should be and how they should interact with the community. "A guild" is merely a blank stone tablet that you're free modify to your own desires.

    I've at no point tried to tell anyone how they should build their guilds (unlike some people supporting the new system), all I want is a system that does not favor guilds based on how many players they have, a system that still has a goal that is very difficult to reach like the previous one had.

    But you and some others in this thread do seem to have a wish to dictate how guilds should play unless they wish to be disadvantaged in the new system, that is far more insulting than anything I've said so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by eris2323 View Post
    Is that too much to ask? Keeping it civil? Not insulting people? Not telling people 'look how old i am, i must be right, i've been here forever, and because your forum date is newer than mine, obviously i am cooler than you'

    Please kindly start treating the other forum users with respect.
    Oh I'm respectful. But I'm also blunt. I'm going to say what I think and I'm not going to embellish it just because you or someone else likes to hear pretty words instead of honest ones.
    Last edited by Viisari; 10-31-2012 at 07:30 AM.

  8. #828
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    Quote Originally Posted by eris2323 View Post
    Why would I think a power-gamer is a bad person?

    I don't.

    I don't believe glorified pugs should be getting a guild bonus. That's all. You can still advance.

    I don't believe small guilds of 6 players should ever even come close to the advancement of a large guild, but that doesn't mean I don't think they should gain levels.
    What makes you think that they progress anywhere near as fast anyway? A 300% 6 man bonus makes up for 3 people. Anyone with 18 people that play the same amount as those six will average more renown AND they get a medium bonus. I fail to see how the bonus hurts, and if you look at the math with the hard coded minimum 10, or current test decay values, 11 is the optimal number. No one is biting at your heels and even if they were, their success or failure has no bearing on your own.

    The fact renown turned guilds into math exercises for some people and actually causes disagreements over definitions meant to be entirely personal is another illustration of why decay fails.

  9. #829
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    Quote Originally Posted by eris2323 View Post
    I don't believe glorified pugs should be getting a guild bonus. That's all. You can still advance.
    And you're telling me to stop insulting people.

    That's rich.

  10. #830
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viisari View Post
    Where did I imply that you're a noob? I don't recall doing such a thing. Nor did I imply that forum join date is a measure of someones worth. And none of those comments were addressed to you in the first place unless you and ninjadwarf_uk are the same person. All I did was to explain how my own guild works, what ideas it was formed around, how our recruiting process works like and why it works like that.

    The reason why ninjadwarf_uk is wrong is because there is absolutely nothing in this game that dictates or even hints at how guilds should work, what ideas they should be formed around, what sizes they should be and how they should interact with the community. "A guild" is merely a blank stone tablet that you're free modify to your own desires.

    I've at no point tried to tell anyone how they should build their guilds (unlike some people supporting the new system), all I want is a system that does not favor guilds based on how many players they have, a system that still has a goal that is very difficult to reach like the previous one had.

    But you and some others in this thread do seem to have a wish to dictate how guilds should play unless they wish to be disadvantaged in the new system, that is far more insulting than anything I've said so far.


    Oh I'm respectful. But I'm also blunt. I'm going to say what I think and I'm not going to embellish it just because you or someone else likes to hear pretty words instead of honest ones.
    You are not respectful.

    This is a thread for comments to the devs about the new system, and you have been insulting him for putting his opinion to the devs.

    That is the long and the short of it.

    Also, you called me a five year old.

    You are not respectful.

  11. #831
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viisari View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by eris2323 View Post
    I don't believe glorified pugs should be getting a guild bonus. That's all. You can still advance.
    And you're telling me to stop insulting people.

    That's rich.
    Yah. I am enjoying his posts about this this much as well.

  12. #832
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    Quote Originally Posted by eris2323 View Post
    You are not respectful.

    This is a thread for comments to the devs about the new system, and you have been insulting him for putting his opinion to the devs.

    That is the long and the short of it.

    Also, you called me a five year old.

    You are not respectful.
    Given how insulting you have been in regards to other guilds and their size and make up, I really don't think you are in any place to talk to anyone about respect.

  13. #833
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    Since when have guilds become party of a zero sum game? When have guilds with 1 account or 1000 accounts subtracted anything from the experiences of others? Why do you guys feel like other people need to suffer for making different choices than you have? Why are you advocating penalizing other peoples choices because they don't conform to your arbitrary idea of what a guild is or should be?

    I think posters in this thread need to do some introspection before posting more about how people with small or large guilds need to penalized or negated as people whose choices matter to them and their enjoyment of the game.

    What the hell is wrong with you people?

  14. #834
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    I at least, am making an effort to try to keep myself within the bounds of forum TOS.

    For instance, I have not called vis a five year old, or any other names.

    I think I'll head off now. Good luck to you all. This is too childish now; perhaps later.

  15. #835
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    Quote Originally Posted by eris2323 View Post
    This is a thread for comments to the devs about the new system
    Indeed it was until a certain someone came along shouting about how there's nothing discuss about and pointing to meaningless statistics.

    Quote Originally Posted by eris2323 View Post
    Also, you called me a five year old.
    I did no such thing. I pointed out how talking to you feels like talking to a five years old. That does not necessarily mean that I think you are five years old.

    But very well, let me correct my previous statement. I'm respectful when the post I'm responding to is respectful. If you feel that I'm not being respectful towards you then the reason for that would be that you're not being respectful towards me.

  16. #836
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    I don't agree that nothing changed. First of all they increased the renown penalty you receive when you gain a level. The developer said it was less than 50% but we don't know the exact amount. I assume it is in the 40-45% renown reduction range based on how it was worded but I don't know for sure. He said it always existed but I never noticed it previously - we really noticed it during the test. I didn't even know about the changes until I inquired about our bad renown drops and someone informed me it was due to the guild changes.
    mm. i missed Vargouille's post... i had only read Tolero's stating you should only be able to gain 3 levels in a day (O.o) but even so, the change is not set in stone. Vargouille in that very post said they'd consider not kicking the negative in for the first level gained.

    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    So small guilds have the same decay to make up for as before, but now after they level they get less renown for a day but decay still kicks in. So immediately after leveling small guilds need to earn another 10k or so renown (depending on the level) before the end of the day while there is an active renown penalty reducing renown drops to 60% of the usual amount (Best guess based on vague devloper wording). It seemed alot more severe to me during the first test, but I take the developers word for it. If you don't earn the extra renown your guild drops, you continue to suffer reduced renown drops for the 24 hour period. Then when you level back up again you are again stuck in the treadmill. Guilds will have to plan their leveling around this unless they generate so much extra renown that it doesn't matter. Large guilds will have so many more people working on the same amount of decay that a small guild has to make up for.
    when we make 63rd, that'll be 7001.316 decay per day. that's not even 2 legendaries. i'll admit that if the system does stay in place as is, it'll be a *little* harder to keep going the higher you get, but it's not *DOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!!*worthy or worth drinking pots over.


    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    Secondly it makes no sense for people to work hard to level up a small guild when they can just join a mega guld and get an easy button. It will make it harder for small guilds to recruit and keep people where they can do nothing and achive better results. Everyone will just want to join a megaguild where they already get instant ship buffs, an easy leveling path and advancing levels is easier.

    i'm not working to level my guild (and yet, it's happened). i'm having fun playing the game. my guild is social. it just happens to be high enough level to have decent buffs, but that's not why i'm in it. if i was here for the buffs i would have been gone from this guild YEARS ago. we were thrilled when we bought our first airship. giddy when we got the second. sobered when we made it to the 3rd, and utterly gobbsmacked when we made it to the 4th., we never really expected to level this high. my husband expected to cap out somewhere in the 50s. and yet we're still climbing. when we stop, we stop. we've never had visions of grandeur to make 100th. that's not why we're in the guild we're in. small guilds with that mentality will NEVER go away...no matter what you say. not "everyone" wants megaguildeasybutton. and if you think your guild is going to scatter to the 4 winds at this first sign of a tiny amount of adversity... i'm sorry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I totally disagree with this. Smaller guilds are more often willing to PUG out spots on their groups and raids, giving others a chance to join in on their events, this having a much larger impact on the game then say.. having some newb get sucked into some mega-guild where they are lost among their own guild tag.

    Sorry but, both have their place in this game, and both have a worth, neither is better or worse then the other, and I am quite offended to have people tell me I am less valuable to the game because I opted to run with a tight knit guild of friends, who group with me. TR with me, and we all know each other, and are willing to help each other out. While we accept new members we don't spam invite, and everyone in my guild is a person, not a name with a renown number attached to it.
    I'll say it one last time.

    The people in a guild are not the same thing as the guild itself. I'm not saying you as an individual is any less valuable than anyone else.

    Small guilds do not pug, the players in the guild do. A closed guild of a few close friend doesn't contribute to the wider social game, but in many cases I am quite sure that the players in that guild do contribute in many cases quite significantly.

    A closed guild of close friends had nothing to offer anyone outside that guild. This is not an opinion, it physically can't, those friends would be friends even without the guild and no one else gets to participate in the guild.

    A guild that is recruiting, or a larger guilds made up of players who have no connection before becoming part of the guild both fulfil a social role within the game.


    And finally play how you like, I'm not telling you different, I just don't think that changes to the mechanism for guild levelling is required to allow tiny guilds to be able to keep up with large ones.

  18. #838
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perikeles View Post
    Since when have guilds become party of a zero sum game? When have guilds with 1 account or 1000 accounts subtracted anything from the experiences of others? Why do you guys feel like other people need to suffer for making different choices than you have? Why are you advocating penalizing other peoples choices because they don't conform to your arbitrary idea of what a guild is or should be?
    I believe it is the product of too much vanity, ego, and entitlement.

  19. #839
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    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    mm. i missed Vargouille's post... i had only read Tolero's stating you should only be able to gain 3 levels in a day (O.o) but even so, the change is not set in stone. Vargouille in that very post said they'd consider not kicking the negative in for the first level gained.


    when we make 63rd, that'll be 7001.316 decay per day. that's not even 2 legendaries. i'll admit that if the system does stay in place as is, it'll be a *little* harder to keep going the higher you get, but it's not *DOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!!*worthy or worth drinking pots over.





    i'm not working to level my guild (and yet, it's happened). i'm having fun playing the game. my guild is social. it just happens to be high enough level to have decent buffs, but that's not why i'm in it. if i was here for the buffs i would have been gone from this guild YEARS ago. we were thrilled when we bought our first airship. giddy when we got the second. sobered when we made it to the 3rd, and utterly gobbsmacked when we made it to the 4th., we never really expected to level this high. my husband expected to cap out somewhere in the 50s. and yet we're still climbing. when we stop, we stop. we've never had visions of grandeur to make 100th. that's not why we're in the guild we're in. small guilds with that mentality will NEVER go away...no matter what you say. not "everyone" wants megaguildeasybutton. and if you think your guild is going to scatter to the 4 winds at this first sign of a tiny amount of adversity... i'm sorry.
    Reasonable points until your last sentence - that last sentence was really mischaracterizing what we are doing.

    When we are TR'ing around level 1 and are suffering from reduced rewown drops, it is real hard to earn 10,348 renown when 2 of us play only a few hours per day and rest play much less. If renown is reduced by say 40%, our TRs need to earn the equivalent of 16.66 k of renown. If we level at the end of the day, we are definitely going to drop a level the next day and get caught in the treadmill. It's workable - we already discussed how we can plan around the level gains and basically solved the issue during the test by staying up real late because we were caught by surprise. I don't see why the extra grief is needed for advancing one level. We have 0 chance of advancing to another level on the same day.

    Yeah I play the game for fun obviously, but I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for a level playing field. We are @ 69, but when the 2 primary generators of renown take a 2-3 week break as we do sometimes we lose 150-200k renown during that period. We lose that much during Mabar also - we aren't doing anything to gain renown, but then again we planned it so we wouldn't drop a level.
    Last edited by slarden; 10-31-2012 at 08:32 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjadwarf_uk View Post
    And finally play how you like, I'm not telling you different, I just don't think that changes to the mechanism for guild levelling is required to allow tiny guilds to be able to keep up with large ones.
    So we can play how we like, as long as we get penalized for it compared to how you want to play? That sounds... fair... or something.
    It's definitely an N-word.

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