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  1. #3221
    Community Member Tychagara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tshober View Post
    Any system that allows players to earn less renown than they cost in decay will have that same problem to one degree or another. The only way to completely fix that is to design the system so that no account can ever lose more renown for the guild than that same account earns. In other words, ensure that no player can earn less net renown per day than zero.

    What you refer to as "bias" is simply the design that encourages inclusiveness and discourages exclusiveness. I don't view that as bias, I view it as good sense.
    So no risk all reward?

    No - that is just wrong. Makes the enitre thing empty.

    Designed inclusiveness is against diversity in guilds and playstyles. If you don't do it my way - then you are wrong and should be punished. Reward for those that fall into line. 1984.

  2. #3222
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    Quote Originally Posted by UurlockYgmeov View Post
    Except I do see what he is saying and understand that point of view. I also see the small guilds point of view.

    What I see is someone giving large guilds a bad rep because they want to keep an advantage that is caused by in inherent slant and bias to the system. The same bias that was there when large guilds where being massacred by decay; but now that the bias has shifted and given them an advantage - well, his blinders go on.

    IMHO What makes it worse is that he does understand and does choose to keep pretending.
    Quote Originally Posted by eris2323 View Post
    Attacking my character doesn't make you any more 'right'. and doesn't make your plan better.
    That was not an attack - rather an educated statement of opinion. The fact you took offence to the statement of opinion only solidifies it as more probable.

    You want to keep the advantage large guilds have now - even if it is unfair and caused by bias and is hurting the game.

    Silly Kobold, shineys are for adventurers.

  3. #3223
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    Quote Originally Posted by UurlockYgmeov View Post
    That was not an attack - rather an educated statement of opinion. The fact you took offence to the statement of opinion only solidifies it as more probable.

    You want to keep the advantage large guilds have now - even if it is unfair and caused by bias and is hurting the game.

    Silly Kobold, shineys are for adventurers.
    Again, attacking my character just shows how low you really are.

  4. #3224
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    Quote Originally Posted by UurlockYgmeov View Post
    You are unjustly judging a person by their play style - exactly what you say you want eliminated from the game.

    What makes the game great and allows it to endure the test of time and cross cultural and language barriers is the ability to choose - and the many choices out there.

    Respect others and they will respect you.

    Just because it is a one person, or 100 person, or 1000 person guild doesn't make it any less valid.
    So true!

    Quote Originally Posted by UurlockYgmeov View Post
    Except I do see what he is saying and understand that point of view. I also see the small guilds point of view.

    What I see is someone giving large guilds a bad rep because they want to keep an advantage that is caused by in inherent slant and bias to the system. The same bias that was there when large guilds where being massacred by decay; but now that the bias has shifted and given them an advantage - well, his blinders go on.

    IMHO What makes it worse is that he does understand and does choose to keep pretending.
    I think you hit the nail on the head!

  5. #3225
    Community Member Tychagara's Avatar
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    Wow this is fun!

    Someone pass the popcorn please and some diet Dr Dragon!

  6. #3226
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    I still think your stated goal of a solo level 100 guild only paying 250 renown decay per day is WAY too low, and too easy; it will leave the system open for abuse, as people use others to gain levels, and then boot them - and then be able to maintain level 100 forever, easily.

  7. #3227
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    Uurlock - you are going to have to repost the proposal again - it is already buried like 5 pages back!

    Hey - good idea - pass some popcorn here too! Just keep it Mountain Sprite for me!

  8. #3228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowz View Post
    Uurlock - you are going to have to repost the proposal again - it is already buried like 5 pages back!

    Hey - good idea - pass some popcorn here too! Just keep it Mountain Sprite for me!
    If he reposts it, I'll reserve the right to repost ALL of my objections again as well. I mean, if he gets to repeat himself ad nauseam, solely for the 'bump', which I do believe is totally forbidden here.... well, so do I!

    It's only fair, after all.

    I still think your stated goal of a solo level 100 guild only paying 250 renown decay per day is WAY too low, and too easy; it will leave the system open for abuse, as people use others to gain levels, and then boot them - and then be able to maintain level 100 forever, easily.

  9. #3229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tychagara View Post
    So no risk all reward?

    No - that is just wrong. Makes the enitre thing empty.

    Designed inclusiveness is against diversity in guilds and playstyles. If you don't do it my way - then you are wrong and should be punished. Reward for those that fall into line. 1984.
    It just brings guild renown into line with every other part of DDO. No other aspect of DDO ever takes away any of your progress once it has been earned. Character exp does not decay. Nor does favor, nor ED points, nor raid flags, nor crafting levels, nor GS mats, nor tome benefits, nor anything else of any import in the game. Is advancement in all these other parts of DDO empty and meaningless just because you can't lose it once you have earned it? If so, then DDO would not be much of a game, would it.

  10. #3230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tshober View Post
    It just brings guild renown into line with every other part of DDO. No other aspect of DDO ever takes away any of your progress once it has been earned. Character exp does not decay. Nor does favor, nor ED points, nor raid flags, nor crafting levels, nor GS mats, nor tome benefits, nor anything else of any import in the game. Is advancement in all these other parts of DDO empty and meaningless just because you can't lose it once you have earned it? If so, then DDO would not be much of a game, would it.
    Hey, if the devs ever decided to just turn off decay, I'd be all for it - at this point, it's just more trouble than it's worth.

    But I suspect even that wouldn't be enough for some solo guilds

    However, I will not accept a system that penalizes a guild for having a large amount of players, which his system obviously does.

  11. #3231
    Community Member UurlockYgmeov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tshober View Post
    It just brings guild renown into line with every other part of DDO. No other aspect of DDO ever takes away any of your progress once it has been earned. Character exp does not decay. Nor does favor, nor ED points, nor raid flags, nor crafting levels, nor GS mats, nor tome benefits, nor anything else of any import in the game. Is advancement in all these other parts of DDO empty and meaningless just because you can't lose it once you have earned it? If so, then DDO would not be much of a game, would it.
    equipment maintenance. fees on vendoring goods. fees on AH transactions. fees on selling gems.

    And the biggest version of it all? TRing. Takes away everything - (yes might give you a small bonus in the form of a past life feat) and that is a major form of decay.

    They can eliminate decay - but you will see the requirements for each guild level get multiplied by probably a factor of at least 10, and a waiting period between levels of at least a month.

    I will take decay any day because it is not meaningless - its existence makes the achievement all that more impressive.

    All I want (and the dev's have stated they want this too) is an unbiased system that is fair to all guild levels, sized, and play styles. My proposal is the closest thing yet; it isn't perfect - has one or two refinements yet - but it is a solid start.

  12. #3232
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    Quote Originally Posted by UurlockYgmeov View Post
    The proposed system will actually promote all types of guild play, and make it so inviting someone is less of a risk.
    You see to me the only acceptable solution would be zero risk from game mechanics. Else it's interfering in what guilds were before the whole system was even added, rather than enhancing it.

  13. #3233
    Community Member UurlockYgmeov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eris2323 View Post
    I will not accept a system that penalizes a guild for having a large amount of players, which his system obviously does.
    but you wish for a system that penalizes guild with numbers less than yours?

    My proposal (albeit not perfect) is the closest thing we have to a system that uniformly assigns decay without bias for all guilds.

  14. #3234
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    Quote Originally Posted by UurlockYgmeov View Post
    but you wish for a system that penalizes guild with numbers less than yours?

    My proposal (albeit not perfect) is the closest thing we have to a system that uniformly assigns decay without bias for all guilds.
    I still think your stated goal of a solo level 100 guild only paying 250 renown decay per day is WAY too low, and too easy; it will leave the system open for abuse, as people use others to gain levels, and then boot them - and then be able to maintain level 100 forever, easily.

    Too cheap for solo guilds. Too expensive for large guilds. Not fair for everyone.

    I also think your guild buff idea is insanely overpowered - and to me, it seems like you just want everything handed to you.

    To have guild slots, you have to give up an item slot. You don't like that, or don't have any large slots, or something - so you think that'd make it fair for every single player in every single guild to immediately get the same bonus as the guild slot bonus?

    Over Powered.
    Last edited by eris2323; 03-17-2013 at 08:52 PM.

  15. #3235
    Community Member UurlockYgmeov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eris2323 View Post
    I still think your stated goal of a solo level 100 guild only paying 250 renown decay per day is WAY too low, and too easy; it will leave the system open for abuse, as people use others to gain levels, and then boot them - and then be able to maintain level 100 forever, easily.
    no actually - is an observation - showing you have some understanding of the proposal - but what you forget is if you boot someone you automatically loose up to 25% (IIRC) of the renown they gained for the guild, and maintain them for as active for two weeks. The proposal doesn't change this, although now that you mention it - maybe it should stiffen the penalties.

    So if someone where to do this they would loose basically probably 50 levels or so in a heartbeat.

    It has been discussed in this thread about making booting more painful and limiting the number of boots during a specific time period.

    No matter what - it is possible, but for someone to do so would be massively more painful that it is worth.

  16. #3236
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    Quote Originally Posted by UurlockYgmeov View Post
    no actually - is an observation - showing you have some understanding of the proposal - but what you forget is if you boot someone you automatically loose up to 25% (IIRC) of the renown they gained for the guild, and maintain them for as active for two weeks.

    So if someone where to do this they would loose basically probably 50 levels or so in a heartbeat.

    It has been discussed in this thread about making booting more painful and limiting the number of boots during a specific time period.

    No matter what - it is possible, but for someone to do so would be massively more painful that it is worth.
    I forget nothing - so you plan on making 75% of the renown required, with your minions of unwilling slaves. You do the math. Then you do the boot.

    Since your system is so cheap to gain levels, it won't take long.

    Since your system is so cheap to maintain, once you are a solo level 100 guild, you are free and clear with a level 100 ship forever.

    I think it will lead to abuse.

  17. #3237
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    Then just pay turbine a bit of cash for a guild name change and a character name change.... or don't even bother... and voila.

    You just angered off 99 people (ex guildies!) who are Turbines customers!

    Niiiiiiiiiiiiiice plan.

    Multiply THAT by everyone who wants to be a solo king, and you have a customer relations DISASTER in the making.
    Last edited by IWMettleblade; 03-18-2013 at 04:11 AM.

  18. #3238
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    Quote Originally Posted by UurlockYgmeov View Post
    equipment maintenance. fees on vendoring goods. fees on AH transactions. fees on selling gems.

    And the biggest version of it all? TRing. Takes away everything - (yes might give you a small bonus in the form of a past life feat) and that is a major form of decay..
    The fees you cite are laughably trivial. Okay, give me a trivial fee that makes my guild immune to decay and I will be happy.

    TR is a player choice. Not a mandatory, unavoidable daily penalty like decay. No one is forced to TR. All guilds over level 25 are forced to endure decay.

  19. #3239
    Community Member UurlockYgmeov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eris2323 View Post
    To have guild slots, you have to give up an item slot. You don't like that, or don't have any large slots, or something - so you think that'd make it fair for every single player in every single guild to immediately get the same bonus as the guild slot bonus?

    Over Powered.
    No you don't have to give up a slot - in fact - guild slotted equipment is a must have for TR's - just use cannith crafting and get some killer gear and more HP / SP / Damage - with no ml caused by the slot.

    I have some nice goggles of Int +6 of +5 resistance (reflex) with a guild slot MCI with a minimum level of 15.

    Have a ml:1 rapier with a slot - nicely crafted with scream of bleed.....

    I run with a guild slot from level 1 through essentially level 18 or so. After level 18 they kinda loose their edge and the new slotted equipment comes into play.

    And the guild would have to choose to give up another ship amenity to slot these in. Probably make it a large so difficult to fit it and say and xp shrine and something else.

    Thanks for mentioning that - will have to include the size in the next revisal.

  20. #3240
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    More popcorn!

    Guild decay is a good thing - as long as it is fair and unbiased - and to do so it must be based on membership and level.

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