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  1. #1981
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    progression for small guilds depends on alot of factors. Most small guilds never even make it to 60 so a level 70 guild that is not progressing has still achieved more than most small guilds.

    Since the development team was ok with effectively eliminating decay for large guilds, i think a more fair temporary solution would be to turn off decay entirely until they come up with a longer-term solution.

    With all the recent server bounces and crashes, guilds are being hit with double decay frequently. While this would be barely noticable to large guilds under the new system, it's very rough for those of us in small guilds. Although previous comments state that the decay is prorated when this occurs, it is definitely not the case with our guild. Somehow the minimum calculation is causing a full day decay on top of the normal full day of decay.

    The developers said they wanted a solution sooner rather than later which is why they implemented this solution. Wouldn't turning of decay accomplish the same thing except that it would help all guilds?

    The fact is that a guild of 10 or less stuck at level 60 would only gain 2 levels all year if decay was turned off entirely. Larger guilds will gain that many levels in less than a month under the new system with their massive renown earning power.

    I really hope turbine does the right thing and just turns off decay until they develop their longer-term vision for guilds.
    +1

  2. #1982
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    The more I play lately, the more it think we need to ABOLISH ship buffs completely.

    THis is the underlying issue for people angry over decay and guild size.

    Remember when a guild was a group of people that enjoyed running together, now it is just a joke.

    "Your guild is not level XX, then you suck..." go back to guild just being social groups without a ship benefit and restore order to the DnD world.

    I will still run in my guild and help my members all i can, just like now, maybe even be able to have more since people are incapable of playing without ship buffs these days...
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  3. #1983
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue100000005 View Post
    The more I play lately, the more it think we need to ABOLISH ship buffs completely.
    Ship buffs allow a player who does not have completionist, stat tomes, TR starting stats and twink gear to remain viable assuming they are able to avoid dying in a quest that does not currently adjust it's difficulty based on gear.

    For guilds that start out, the pay to win option of gold guild amenities (+ xp shrine) does continue to bring in revenue for the company.

    My argument when it comes to the current guild renown system is that it does not require any guild to have that many truly active players to reach rank 100.

    In the current system, guilds of all sizes are no longer penalized for having less active players due to decay no longer being assessed per account. All players regardless of activity now benefit the guild in some way. Each additional player will result in an added benefit and removal (without replacement) of mostly inactive players will not.

    Only guilds that have a disproportionately low number of players to meet the minimum requirement will unable to continue to progress in rank.

    It may be true that most guilds are smaller, however this does not necessarily translate to "players in smaller guilds make up a higher portion of the total player population in comparison to players in larger guilds".

    Guild decay should allow for decrease in rank when a guild is largely inactive. When assessing the manner in which to help out smaller guilds, the following should also apply: the adjustment should not change so much that it provides a disincentive to retain a mostly inactive player.
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  4. #1984
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaos000 View Post
    Ship buffs allow a player who does not have completionist, stat tomes, TR starting stats and twink gear to remain viable assuming they are able to avoid dying in a quest that does not currently adjust it's difficulty based on gear.
    remember where people played the game and loved it without these ship buffs?????

    I think that more than renown is the biggest issue facing guilds. NO ONE will join a smaller guild anymore because they "NEED" these buffs. The only reason renown is an issue is because of the rewards for guild level.

    And yes turbine is a business gold seal blah blah, but i think the ship buffs are killing the true sense of community that a guild is supposed to bring.

    Leave your guild, and TRY to build one, NO ONE is willing to join a lower level anymore. Why? Buffs.

    I have many once a week and once a month warriors in my group, we are the national guard of argonessen, and no one is willing to look at that, they see the level and how many have not been on in the past few weeks ad say no thank you.

    Buffs are killing the guilds. Renown is only a symptom of the buff issue.
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  5. #1985
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue100000005 View Post
    I think that more than renown is the biggest issue facing guilds. NO ONE will join a smaller guild anymore because they "NEED" these buffs.
    No, there is no ship buff you NEED. They is not a single quest that can't be completed without ship buffs.

    They are a convinience, and a slightly broken advantage at L1-6 which is just a few hrs anyway.

  6. #1986
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gkar View Post
    No, there is no ship buff you NEED. They is not a single quest that can't be completed without ship buffs.

    They are a convinience, and a slightly broken advantage at L1-6 which is just a few hrs anyway.
    If you are going to have in-game rewards like ship buffs tied to guild rank the system should be fair. The current system is far from fair.

    I still remember a guildy and I wiping in the end battle of Jungle of Khyber because we only had ship buff resists of 10 and we couldn't take the electric damage. It was our first characters first life (both melees) and at the time resist rings for the level were out of our price range - not to mention we had no idea we would take so much damage. With resist 30 that end battle is no problem. So it does make a difference to some people.
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  7. #1987

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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    If you are going to have in-game rewards like ship buffs tied to guild rank the system should be fair. The current system is far from fair.

    I still remember a guildy and I wiping in the end battle of Jungle of Khyber because we only had ship buff resists of 10 and we couldn't take the electric damage. It was our first characters first life (both melees) and at the time resist rings for the level were out of our price range - not to mention we had no idea we would take so much damage. With resist 30 that end battle is no problem. So it does make a difference to some people.
    Resists 20 is readily available at level for Von 3. Resist 30 is technically readily available as well.

    If you are trying to run Elite Von3 with a group of level 6 toon. yeah. You will most likely die. Thats got very little to do with ship buffs.
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  8. #1988
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    If you are going to have in-game rewards like ship buffs tied to guild rank the system should be fair. The current system is far from fair.

    I still remember a guildy and I wiping in the end battle of Jungle of Khyber because we only had ship buff resists of 10 and we couldn't take the electric damage. It was our first characters first life (both melees) and at the time resist rings for the level were out of our price range - not to mention we had no idea we would take so much damage. With resist 30 that end battle is no problem. So it does make a difference to some people.
    Fairness does not exist in a multi-player game - there will always be someone that is better/worse at doing something then someone else.

    Want fair?

    Remove ALL guild size bonuses and put ALL guilds on the same footing. Decay based on your Guild Level and nothing else starting at Guild Level 1. Then add a ship buff that will grant +X% Renown bonus and charge for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
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  9. #1989
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    Resists 20 is readily available at level for Von 3. Resist 30 is technically readily available as well.

    If you are trying to run Elite Von3 with a group of level 6 toon. yeah. You will most likely die. Thats got very little to do with ship buffs.
    And yet Imp, long before Ship Buffs when we only had House P favor buffs, people still completed eVoN3.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
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  10. #1990
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Fairness does not exist in a multi-player game - there will always be someone that is better/worse at doing something then someone else.

    Want fair?

    Remove ALL guild size bonuses and put ALL guilds on the same footing. Decay based on your Guild Level and nothing else starting at Guild Level 1. Then add a ship buff that will grant +X% Renown bonus and charge for it.
    It's very easy to create a fair decay formula in this case - remove decay entirely.

    A level 60 guild with 10 or less people that is stuck at level 60 would gain 2 levels all year if decay was removed - and that is with the guild bonus. The guild bonus doesn't give any advantage it only slightly reduces the disadvantage that small guilds have to level since they have less people working on the same renown total.

    Many large guilds have gained over 10 levels since this change was made and your solution is to remove the small guild bonus and make it even harder for small guilds? This is just more of the same from a few people in large guilds that are against giving small guilds a chance to reach high levels.

    Decay is a penalty for players in the guild since only players can overcome the penalty. If decay is needed it needs to be done on a per player basis although I think it should be eliminated enitrely.
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  11. #1991

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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    They are not available ifyou don't have the spell. You don't need the spell if you have 30 resist ship buffs. These amenities have in-game benefits to players - especially with a character that can't give themself resist.
    Improved XXX Resistance is ML7 and drops on items like cloaks..... Actually, wasnt it dropped to ML5 even?

    Von3 was completed on Elite well before ship buffes ever existed. Well before the level cap was raised above 10. Resist 30 didnt even exist at all..

    I'm generally not a "Harder is better" type guy. but this isnt about the quest being hard. Its about basic "Being prepared" for the challenge ahead.
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  12. #1992
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    It's very easy to create a fair decay formula in this case - remove decay entirely.

    A level 60 guild with 10 or less people that is stuck at level 60 would gain 2 levels all year if decay was removed - and that is with the guild bonus. The guild bonus doesn't give any advantage it only slightly reduces the disadvantage that small guilds have to level since they have less people working on the same renown total.

    Many large guilds have gained over 10 levels since this change was made and your solution is to remove the small guild bonus and make it even harder for small guilds? This is just more of the same from a few people in large guilds that are against giving small guilds a chance to reach high levels.

    Decay is a penalty for players in the guild since only players can overcome the penalty. If decay is needed it needs to be done on a per player basis although I think it should be eliminated enitrely.
    Show me those 'many large guilds'. Also provide how many of those members have used renown pots as well. Feel free to include renown gained/lost per day for those 'many large guilds'. Also, how many of your 'many large guilds' were stuck at the renown plateau and are now finally gaining? Your going to need to back up your claims with facts.

    You asked for a fair system, I provided a solution. It is becoming apparent to me, wiht all due respect!, you do not want a 'totaly fair system for all', just fair system for your guild size. Again, with all due respect after reading your replies on this in this thread and every chance you get to post about it.

    If we went back to a player/account system, we would be right back to where we were originally - and nobody wants that, minus one or two.

    In conclusion, why are you concerned, at all, about what a guild is doing that you are not a member of? Concentrate on your own and not what your neighbor is doing, you will be happier for it.

    And for the record, I am a member of a 70-80 account Guild, guess you class that as large. We have gained THREE levels since this changed. THREE. Three that we have never, ever, been able to get before. We do not care if we get a ton of renown a day, we care that we advance - even slowly. We do not care if that advancement is 100 renown over decay or 10000. We are happy that we are advancing instead of being stuck at the renown plateau.

    /respect

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
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  13. #1993
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    If we went back to a player/account system, we would be right back to where we were originally - and nobody wants that, minus one or two.

    In conclusion, why are you concerned, at all, about what a guild is doing that you are not a member of? Concentrate on your own and not what your neighbor is doing, you will be happier for it.
    Why do you not want to go back to the old system if YOU did not care about how other guilds are doing compared to you?
    It's definitely an N-word.

  14. #1994
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Show me those 'many large guilds'. Also provide how many of those members have used renown pots as well. Feel free to include renown gained/lost per day for those 'many large guilds'. Also, how many of your 'many large guilds' were stuck at the renown plateau and are now finally gaining? Your going to need to back up your claims with facts.

    You asked for a fair system, I provided a solution. It is becoming apparent to me, wiht all due respect!, you do not want a 'totaly fair system for all', just fair system for your guild size. Again, with all due respect after reading your replies on this in this thread and every chance you get to post about it.

    If we went back to a player/account system, we would be right back to where we were originally - and nobody wants that, minus one or two.

    In conclusion, why are you concerned, at all, about what a guild is doing that you are not a member of? Concentrate on your own and not what your neighbor is doing, you will be happier for it.

    And for the record, I am a member of a 70-80 account Guild, guess you class that as large. We have gained THREE levels since this changed. THREE. Three that we have never, ever, been able to get before. We do not care if we get a ton of renown a day, we care that we advance - even slowly. We do not care if that advancement is 100 renown over decay or 10000. We are happy that we are advancing instead of being stuck at the renown plateau.

    /respect
    On the one hand you argue guilds should not care about level and on the other hand you don't want guilds to go back to the old system because your large guild wouldn't gain levels as fast. I see.

    I would like to see a guild system that is fair to all guild sizes just as the large guilds felt the system wasn't fair to them and they wanted to see a change. The difference is the system is much more unfair now than ever.

    Bathory Hordes is a good example. They are a large guilds and I see the guild members often in parties. They were level 60 in October and now are level 71 and I was told by a member they were almost 72. I am happy for them and their rapid advancement.

    You said you want to advance slowly. Decay is the mechanism that keeps small guilds from advancing at all and it should be eliminated. Most small guilds are stuck which is exactly what you say you don't want. Small guilds also don't want to be stuck.
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  15. #1995
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    Hendrik, with all due respect. I think, with exception of 1-2 brain-devoids nobody, repeating: absolutely nobody, wants back the old system. Turbine did away with that for good.

    Still, they are only halfway through. They silenced or even made accomplice some of the most prominent voices for change in here. But they did appease, instead of change or even make better.

    So the solution they implemented has "quick & dirty" spelled all over the place. And the vast majority of players still has troubles to cough up the necessary renown to battle decay in their small guilds. Even worse, our small guilds daily loose players to the big ones now - because they now do recruit actively again - from existing player bases!

    So all the system did was helping the already big. Does remind me somewhat of politics in RL... The system now even punishes strugling and competing small guilds by giving the big guilds all the arguments to lure away the active powergamers from small guilds. So we from the small guilds again get what we can grab: Absolute newbies, clueless, the casuals and those that stick with us because they are the RL friends or out of tradition.

    Well, at least those on the top can be assured that they will remain very lonely there - because there is no player base on the servers to support more than about 15-20 big guilds level 100 and a very rare 1-3 small guilds at lv. 95+

  16. #1996
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    Why do you not want to go back to the old system if YOU did not care about how other guilds are doing compared to you?
    Read my post again.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
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  17. #1997
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Read my post again.
    I did. What I posted is still my question.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  18. #1998
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    On the one hand you argue guilds should not care about level and on the other hand you don't want guilds to go back to the old system because your large guild wouldn't gain levels as fast. I see.

    I would like to see a guild system that is fair to all guild sizes just as the large guilds felt the system wasn't fair to them and they wanted to see a change. The difference is the system is much more unfair now than ever.

    Bathory Hordes is a good example. They are a large guilds and I see the guild members often in parties. They were level 60 in October and now are level 71 and I was told by a member they were almost 72. I am happy for them and their rapid advancement.

    You said you want to advance slowly. Decay is the mechanism that keeps small guilds from advancing at all and it should be eliminated. Most small guilds are stuck which is exactly what you say you don't want. Small guilds also don't want to be stuck.
    Go back, read again. Comprehend what I was/am saying.

    Read it slowly if needed.

    So, a Large Guild has made 11 levels in 4 months of play. How many of them use pots? How many members online and for how long? More people online, more renown gained. Inverse is also true.

    How large is your Guild? How many members online and for how long? What is your renown number, right now? Let's see that and look again in a week. A month. Four months.

    Everyone, I do not wish to sound argumentative or hostile. Apology if I do. This is a sensative subject for us all as we all love our guilds and the members within. There will be NO easy solution to be fair - as someone, someplace will do things better or worse then the person next to them.

    ALL Guilds should be able to advance. Even if that advancement is 1 point over decay. No Guild should stagnate, unless activity drops below daily decay amount. You MUST be active to advance, large or small.

    I do find it odd however, that small guilds claim unfair when a 1-man guild can still advance daily past daily decay amounts. How is that???

    /respect

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
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  19. #1999
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    I do find it odd however, that small guilds claim unfair when a 1-man guild can still advance daily past daily decay amounts. How is that???
    If a 1-man guild "can" do it, why should a 100 account guild have it 66 times easier per player? Why does simply being in a large guild entitle you to work so much less for the same rewards?

    Yes, some insanely active/grindy/whatever people can do it. Why should small guilds have to be grindy when large guilds don't?

    Turbine's original vision was that there should be room for all of us, large and small. I don't understand what's so bad about that.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  20. #2000

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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    That's fine speaking from someone with 20,000 posts and obviously alot of experience. Your typical DDO new or casual player doesn't feel this way. If these ameneties weren't an issue, we wouldn't have had large guilds complaining about not being to level. The fact is guilds do care about these things or nobody would care about guild level, decay or advancing. People care about these things because of the in-game benefits provided.

    This should be rather obvious.

    The "Typical DDO new or casual", whatever that is, probably shouldnt be running quests on Elite without knowing what lies ahead.

    I understand turbine has incentivized Elite to the point where thats difficult for some folks to resists.

    DOesnt change the fact that Elite should indeed be too hard for inexperienced new players to complete the first time through.

    I can assure you though, as the leader of a "Large" guild that certainly had its complaints on the old system, that our complains had nothing to do with 30pt resist shrines and +2 stat buffs...
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