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  1. #1
    Community Member Phaeton_Seraph's Avatar
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    Question Artificer Melee? Anyone had good experiences?

    I have an artifonk, who should not exist, yet does. I don't want to bother investing TP to fix him and I can't seem to get a free +n LR, so I was wondering if I should try out a melee build.

    I've only met one person who had a melee artificer and seemed to think it was good. But I think he was a TR too, and I can't remember who it was anyway, so I can't pick his brain.

    So... An artificer with a two lvl Monk splash. He has evasion.

    He can use Monk enhancements for Wisdom, which might help with trapping, is there any other reason to invest enhancements in wis?

    Is there anything else in the Monk enhancement list I should capitalise on?


    Is it better to invest in a weapon proficiency feat, or simply use the Master's Touch spell to take advantage of weapons with good effects that go cheap because they're dwarven axes or bastard swords?
    Master's Touch has the problem that one must always remember to use it, which is most likely to be an issue in the event one dies in combat.

    This link, to a page called "So you want to be an artificer" suggests Two-Handed Fighting, but won't that mean no Rune arm? Is there some advantage to having THF or GTHF if one is using a main hand weapon?


    It seems that Battle Engineer is imortant for making melee weapons do more damage, but will it be better to be using Insightful Strikes over Insightful Damage?


    Assuming I don't max out any specific stat, and bring Wis and Cha to 10 at the initial creation, what do you think are the DDO Runic Champion path attributes for Str, Dex, Con and Int reasonable as a guideline?


    I look forward to hearing any ideas, insight or experiences anyone can share with me.

  2. #2
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaeton_Seraph View Post
    Is it better to invest in a weapon proficiency feat, or simply use the Master's Touch spell to take advantage of weapons with good effects that go cheap because they're dwarven axes or bastard swords?
    Master's Touch only grants martial weapons prof, so it only works w/d.axe for dwarves (who count d.axes as martial); for everyone else, they're exotic and you need to take the feat.
    This link, to a page called "So you want to be an artificer" suggests Two-Handed Fighting, but won't that mean no Rune arm? Is there some advantage to having THF or GTHF if one is using a main hand weapon?
    THF feats will proc glancing blows w/d.axe or b.sword when single-wielded; so the idea is DA/BS mainhand, runearm offhand.
    It seems that Battle Engineer is imortant for making melee weapons do more damage, but will it be better to be using Insightful Strikes over Insightful Damage?
    Depends on whether you're going STR- or INT-based.

    wowo has at least one melee arty build here. I've been kicking around an idea for a melee / ranged arty who uses both repeaters & sword+runearm; kinda like an arcane alternative to a ranger. But mine's even more heavily-MCed (art 16 / monk 2 / ftr 2) just for all the feats I need (tho having Evasion never hurts). Original concept was WF, but now I'm leaning dwarf (despite the hit to self-repairing) just to get d.axe prof. free; plus who doesn't love dwarves?

  3. #3

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    I liked melee on my arty with the exception of covering my own healing ( I did a fleshly and used the feat to repair on myself). But at that point i had lots of melee toys.

    I did a lot of posts on Artys this month = http://my.ddo.com/samiusbot/2012/05/ and the month after http://my.ddo.com/samiusbot/2012/06/

    But unless your a WF i wouldn't go melee arty.
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  4. #4
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    I've got three arti-related-with-melee characters in my current playing portfolio. Battle Engineer is surprisingly good, even after the crossbow tax.



    (1) I've got a Monk 7 / Fighter 12 / Wizard 1 who is a fun tactics build on his first life. I'm playing around at cap, beating on things and having fun but once some of my other TRs complete, I'll TR him too. I do want to handle traps, I think, so I'm considering some splashes. I'm really staring at Arti 6 / Fighter 12 / Monk 2. I wouldn't use a rune arm on this, except to pair with some sort of generic repeater for when ranged is best. Mostly, he'd be a hand-wrap user.

    (2) I'm using it on my sorta-main right now to get through a Paladin life ... he's Monk 2 / Arti 7 / Paladin 5 or something right now (will end up with equal Paladin to Arti). I do keep a rune-arm/x-bow set around for when he needs them, but mostly I'm swinging some sort of a battle-engineer-boosted twink weapon ... a +7 weapon is pretty hot at 14. If it were a new character, I'd probably go d-axe/bastard but I had better twink gear in the traditional THF arena. I suspect Arti 6 will be a core of many, many of his lives going forward and I may start farming some bastard swords or dwarven axes.

    (3) I do have a traditional ranged artificer, with no melee feats. He does tend to have better DEX than STR, and a high INT (obviously). In a pinch, I have an eMG I made him and a few other weapons to swing around.
    Last edited by voodoogroves; 10-26-2012 at 10:46 AM.
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  5. #5
    Community Member NovaNZ's Avatar
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    Default just a concept build

    Just a planner build. Skills could do with reworking. Havent made it or played it so take it for what it is

    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 20 True Neutral Dwarf Male
    (2 Fighter \ 12 Ranger \ 6 Artificer) 
    Hit Points: 364
    Spell Points: 460 
    BAB: 18\18\23\28\28
    Fortitude: 19
    Reflex: 15
    Will: 9
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (34 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             16                    24
    Dexterity            14                    20
    Constitution         17                    22
    Intelligence         14                    18
    Wisdom                8                    10
    Charisma             10                    13
    
    Tomes Used
    +1 Tome of Strength used at level 4
    +1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 4
    +1 Tome of Constitution used at level 4
    +1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 4
    +1 Tome of Charisma used at level 4
    +2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
    +3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
    +3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11
    +3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
    +3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
    +3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills         Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
    Balance               4                    18
    Bluff                 0                     1
    Concentration         7                    25
    Diplomacy             0                     1
    Disable Device        n/a                  26
    Haggle                0                     1
    Heal                 -1                     0
    Hide                  4                    21
    Intimidate            0                     1
    Jump                  7                    19
    Listen               -1                     0
    Move Silently         6                    21
    Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
    Perform               n/a                   n/a
    Repair                2                     4
    Search                6                    28
    Spot                  3                    17
    Swim                  3                     7
    Tumble                3                     6
    Use Magic Device      2                    24
    
    Level 1 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Selected) Dodge
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Bard
    Enhancement: Ranger Skill Boost I
    Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I
    Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I
    
    
    Level 2 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
    Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
    Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
    Enhancement: Ranger Devotion I
    
    
    Level 3 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Selected) Mobility
    Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
    Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I
    
    
    Level 4 (Ranger)
    Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack I
    Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense II
    
    
    Level 5 (Ranger)
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Resistance I
    Enhancement: Ranger Devotion II
    
    
    Level 6 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Giant
    Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage II
    
    
    Level 7 (Ranger)
    Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I
    
    
    Level 8 (Ranger)
    Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II
    Enhancement: Ranger Devotion III
    
    
    Level 9 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
    
    
    Level 10 (Ranger)
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
    
    
    Level 11 (Artificer)
    Enhancement: Artificer Crossbow Damage I
    Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense III
    
    
    Level 12 (Artificer)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    Enhancement: Artificer Damage Boost I
    Enhancement: Artificer Improved Rune Arm Use I
    Enhancement: Artificer Wand and Scroll Mastery I
    
    
    Level 13 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
    Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity II
    
    
    Level 14 (Ranger)
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage III
    Enhancement: Artificer Intelligence I
    
    
    Level 15 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot
    Enhancement: Ranger Tempest II
    
    
    Level 16 (Artificer)
    Enhancement: Uncaring Master
    Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack II
    
    
    Level 17 (Artificer)
    Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons
    Enhancement: Artificer Damage Boost II
    Enhancement: Artificer Crossbow Attack I
    
    
    Level 18 (Artificer)
    Feat: (Selected) Shot on the Run
    Enhancement: Artificer Rune Arm Overcharge I
    Enhancement: Artificer Wand and Scroll Mastery II
    
    
    Level 19 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Quick Draw
    Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
    
    
    Level 20 (Artificer)
    Enhancement: Artificer Improved Rune Arm Use II
    Enhancement: Artificer Battle Engineer I
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  6. #6
    Community Member Phaeton_Seraph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    Master's Touch only grants martial weapons prof, so it only works w/d.axe for dwarves (who count d.axes as martial); for everyone else, they're exotic and you need to take the feat.
    THF feats will proc glancing blows w/d.axe or b.sword when single-wielded; so the idea is DA/BS mainhand, runearm offhand.
    Depends on whether you're going STR- or INT-based.

    wowo has at least one melee arty build here. I've been kicking around an idea for a melee / ranged arty who uses both repeaters & sword+runearm; kinda like an arcane alternative to a ranger. But mine's even more heavily-MCed (art 16 / monk 2 / ftr 2) just for all the feats I need (tho having Evasion never hurts). Original concept was WF, but now I'm leaning dwarf (despite the hit to self-repairing) just to get d.axe prof. free; plus who doesn't love dwarves?
    Hmm.. so then Master's Touch won't work with bastard swords either. So... one would have to invest in a weapon feat or choose a race that uses a specific weapon or invest in the feat.

    Am I to understand that Bastard Swords and Dwarven Axes are exotic mostly because they are both single-handed and two-handed weapons?

    So THF only helps if you have a Bastard Sword, Dwarven Axe or use a real two-handed weapon and abandon the rune arm?

    Do we know anything about how well Rune Arms work for blocking? I only tried it once to stop a boss from going somewhere while he was aggroed on someone else.

  7. #7
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaeton_Seraph View Post
    Hmm.. so then Master's Touch won't work with bastard swords either. So... one would have to invest in a weapon feat or choose a race that uses a specific weapon or invest in the feat.

    Am I to understand that Bastard Swords and Dwarven Axes are exotic mostly because they are both single-handed and two-handed weapons?

    So THF only helps if you have a Bastard Sword, Dwarven Axe or use a real two-handed weapon and abandon the rune arm?

    Do we know anything about how well Rune Arms work for blocking? I only tried it once to stop a boss from going somewhere while he was aggroed on someone else.
    An electric-spec person could go with the Fang, which can grant proficiency.
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  8. #8
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Seen this tried a few times. Never seen a 'melee-ficer' (maleficer?) that could seriously pull their weight in epic elite content.

    The big issue is that if you go Str based, you are squishy and way behind a traditional melee in damage output. yet the utility you bring doesn't make up for that (your Tactical Detonation sucks for instance and BB isn't enough damage to make a big difference).

    Go Int-based instead and your damage just isn't there in melee and usually you are best off staying off the front lines. In that case you would be more of a group asset with a crossbow in hand.

    Really IMO the maleficer just needs a bit more durability and the build might work but for the moment I don't think we have the tools to make it work.
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  9. #9
    Community Member Phaeton_Seraph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samiusbot View Post
    I liked melee on my arty with the exception of covering my own healing ( I did a fleshly and used the feat to repair on myself). But at that point i had lots of melee toys.

    I did a lot of posts on Artys this month = http://my.ddo.com/samiusbot/2012/05/ and the month after http://my.ddo.com/samiusbot/2012/06/

    But unless your a WF i wouldn't go melee arty.
    I can't live without Construct Essence on my ranged Arti, but I don't think I would use it on a melee build.

    As ranged, I tend to move off, away from any other ranged person, caster or otherwise. I find that, between the repeater, Endless Fusilade, and primarily AOE based spells, I generate some aggro. Have a caster near me, and he's tossing an AOE of his own our way (particularly in an elite shroud, it's a guaranteed meteor strike). Positioning myself where I can gnaw a way with the repeater and take rune arm/arcane pot-shots often puts me where a healer doesn't notice me as much. I don't blame them, I have Construct Essence.

    However, if I were to group up with everyone else, like in front of the dragon in VoN 6, I have to spend a lot of time self-repairing. The loss of that 25% of heals is important, especially as I didn't invest in heals, I can see the rest of the party respond better to the mass heals.
    Even with the 50% loss to repairs, my repair abilities make me repair better than heal. Even so, taking a Superior Ardor and Superior Mending pot on entering probably make the difference, and I still feel like I self-repair more than I attack.

    I'd like to see a warforged/arti/wizard party someday where everyone is repaired instead of healed, just to see how that could work (I've played with some other Arties who chime for an all artie Shroud run).
    As is, I don't know many people who keep Mass Repairs prepared; I don't. Maybe if I had an extra spell slot that forced me to use a repair spell of some sort, but no. I don't run with enough WF or Arties.


    As a melee Artie, I think I'd forgo Construct Essence an instead invest in the Human Recovery and Heal enhancements.

    With the Monk splash, I think I could also use the Monk Improved Recovery too, couldn't I? And Way of the Clever Monkey would be useful too.





    I'm also curious as to opinions about Dragonscale armour, Black, or Blue? On my pure ranged arti, I might go for blue. She's not really a trapper at all. But for a melee artie?

  10. #10
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    I've played the Typhon build in my sig already and it kept up fine in old epic content. Any melee/artificer build is still going to need to know when to swap to ranged and create a blended play style much like a ranger.

    I'd love to do another melee artificer build honestly. Second time around it would still be int based but WF with a body feat, cleave/great cleave and 2 level splash (2 fighter or 2 monk).
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  11. #11
    Community Member Chette's Avatar
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    I played a melee artificer some time ago, and plan to play one again in the future (working on a TR project right now though). They're not the best, but they can put out decent damage. Go int based, absolutely. Start with a decent amount of strength so that you can hit. The changes to how to-hit is rolled actually benefits the melee artificer quite a bit, as your hit percentage at low strength will be much higher now than it was before expansion (unless you were exceptionally geared). Use your insightful damage and you'll see some nice high numbers. The bastard sword from caught in the web is great on trash, and the short-sword from that same raid actually functions as a bastard sword as well, so you'll get glancing blows. Dwarven axes might be an option too, if you plan to use Legendary Dreadnaught, but I've not much experience with those so I can't comment.

    The main problem with melee artificers right now, as far as I see, is that you get kind of screwed with feats. You get five bonus feats (if pure) that allow you to take ranged feats, but not any melee feats. Yes, you can pick up casting feats as well, but not all of them (no spell focuses). There just aren't 5 metamagics I want on my melee artificer, so 1-2 of them end up getting wasted.

    This is why I really hate when the devs design classes around a certain weapon and seem to streamline them towards that. Melee artificers could have been quite viable if melee feats had been allowed as an option for bonus feats (a few enhancements would have been nice too). But since that option was not provided, we now have 90%+ of all artificers in the game being basically carbon copies of the same build. A little flexibility goes a long ways towards build diversity.

    If you want to play a melee artificer, go for it! They're really fun, and can hold their own in moderate content. You'll notice the lower power (and tendancy to get hit a lot) vs a ranged artificer in hard content, but otherwise you should be fine.
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  12. #12
    Community Member cdr's Avatar
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    I just did a 9 arti / 9 barb / 2 fighter melee artificer as the 9th life / 3rd barb PL of my melee character.

    It was fine for a TR life, but I don't think I would ever do it as TR life again much less do epics with it.

    It's very flexible - can use xbows, sword&runearm, 2 handers, s&b as the situation calls for - but it lacks any real strengths. The first 9 levels were great as arti, but it got gradually more and more underwhelming after that, even with nice toys like a LitII bastard sword.

  13. #13
    Community Member Phaeton_Seraph's Avatar
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    The lack of melee oriented feats makes me understand now why someone would choose an Artie with Monk/2 Fighter/2 splashes.

    I don't mind switching from ranged to melee as required, I got a squishy rogue who does that. But the rogue can assassinate.

    Even going Legendary Dreadnaught, an Artie doesn't have much in the way of "tactical feats." I'm doing that ED on my main Artie right now and half the choices are unavailable to me.

    I feel sorry for anyone who tries to follow the Runic Champion path.

    Lots to chew on here guys, thanks.

  14. #14
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaeton_Seraph View Post
    The lack of melee oriented feats makes me understand now why someone would choose an Artie with Monk/2 Fighter/2 splashes.

    I don't mind switching from ranged to melee as required, I got a squishy rogue who does that. But the rogue can assassinate.

    Even going Legendary Dreadnaught, an Artie doesn't have much in the way of "tactical feats." I'm doing that ED on my main Artie right now and half the choices are unavailable to me.

    I feel sorry for anyone who tries to follow the Runic Champion path.

    Lots to chew on here guys, thanks.
    The tactical feats on a melee arti are spells; tactical detonation and prismatic strike.

    ED wise can either be LD with Energy Burst twisted or DI with Lay Waste etc twisted.

    There are "melee" feats available in the bonus feats for arti - dragonmarks - my Typhon worked great just using eFang slotted with aligned planes though as mentioned id go 18/2 WF second time around.
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    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Still, I think the lack of decent short-range rune arms ... Toven's and maybe Animus are about the only ones that are going to be actually useful in melee range - the shot ones (even the ones that track) still have a hard time with fast angles and facing.

    The pain about 18/2 is the restriction to 2 6th level spells. The lack of PRE and feat support makes it really rough to stay pure though. Here's my *tentative* plan, completely subject to change since I'm a few lives away from it still:

    Arti 20 - INT high, rest mostly STR / CON

    Bonus Feats: Quicken, Maximize, Empower, Extend, Augment (one of these last two may end up Mithril Body if they fix PRR).
    Normal Feats: Toughness, PA, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Crit, PL Wizard, Complete

    - You could swap PA / Cleave / Great Cleave for the THF chain, but right now Cleave is so much fun.
    - At this point, I'd avoid the THF weapons unless you were a (a) dwarf qualifying using Master's Touch or (b) Dragonmark Fang user (which grants prof).


    Again, that's what's in my "maybe" folder for one of my toons ... and since i'm sure the enhancement pass will come and go before he gets completionist, it's pretty much just a placeholder. There's still stuff I'd want to fit in (like Insightful Reflexes - maybe I'd drop Toughness for that).
    Last edited by voodoogroves; 10-27-2012 at 08:21 PM.
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  16. #16
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    Still, I think the lack of decent short-range rune arms ... Toven's and maybe Animus are about the only ones that are going to be actually useful in melee range - the shot ones (even the ones that track) still have a hard time with fast angles and facing.

    The pain about 18/2 is the restriction to 2 6th level spells. The lack of PRE and feat support makes it really rough to stay pure though. Here's my *tentative* plan, completely subject to change since I'm a few lives away from it still:

    Arti 20 - INT high, rest mostly STR / CON

    Bonus Feats: Quicken, Maximize, Empower, Extend, Augment (one of these last two may end up Mithril Body if they fix PRR).
    Normal Feats: Toughness, PA, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Crit, PL Wizard, Complete

    - You could swap PA / Cleave / Great Cleave for the THF chain, but right now Cleave is so much fun.
    - At this point, I'd avoid the THF weapons unless you were a (a) dwarf qualifying using Master's Touch or (b) Dragonmark Fang user (which grants prof).


    Again, that's what's in my "maybe" folder for one of my toons ... and since i'm sure the enhancement pass will come and go before he gets completionist, it's pretty much just a placeholder. There's still stuff I'd want to fit in (like Insightful Reflexes - maybe I'd drop Toughness for that).
    I think the THF'ing feats are a must have as all glancing blows get the rune arm imbue.

    Therefore (it's fighter or monk, not both and just the feats to have, not necessarily on monk or fighter levels):

    Bonus Feats: Quicken, Maximize, Empower
    Normal Feats: PA, Completionist, Cleave, Great Cleave, EWP: BS or Daxe, THF, ITHF
    Epic Feats: PL Wizard, Toughness
    Fighter Bonus: Adamantine Body, Improved Crit: Slashing, GTHF
    Monk Bonus: Mithral Body, IC:S, GTHF

    Only 2 spells sucks though

    I thought PRR was working fine?

    Lucid Dreams works fine in melee it's just a trick to get the hang of to step back slightly just as you shoot and then you don't miss.
    Last edited by wax_on_wax_off; 10-29-2012 at 04:28 PM.
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  17. #17
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    I think the THF'ing feats are a must have as all glancing blows get the rune arm imbue.
    The trade-offs do suck.
    I thought PRR was working fine?
    I could be wrong; I thought it was still borked.

    Lucid Dreams works fine in melee it's just a trick to get the hang of to step back slightly just as you shoot and then you don't miss.
    You have a different opinion of "works fine" than I do ;-)
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    Seen this tried a few times. Never seen a 'melee-ficer' (maleficer?) that could seriously pull their weight in epic elite content.

    The big issue is that if you go Str based, you are squishy and way behind a traditional melee in damage output. yet the utility you bring doesn't make up for that (your Tactical Detonation sucks for instance and BB isn't enough damage to make a big difference).

    Go Int-based instead and your damage just isn't there in melee and usually you are best off staying off the front lines. In that case you would be more of a group asset with a crossbow in hand.

    Really IMO the maleficer just needs a bit more durability and the build might work but for the moment I don't think we have the tools to make it work.
    This was my experience with it as well. I ran one up for a past life, and really just ended up being too squishy to be able to mix it up directly in melee for the higher level content.
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    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osharan_Tregarth View Post
    This was my experience with it as well. I ran one up for a past life, and really just ended up being too squishy to be able to mix it up directly in melee for the higher level content.
    Commitment issues! Of course I don't know the details of your situation but in my experience the competition is almost always cookie cutter builds with multiple double shard greensteel weapons ... I certainly noticed the drop off on my melee arti when my counterpart got his LitII GS and I had to lag behind a few levels until I got blade barrier but it was okay as it gave me a chance to explore some of my other party roles.

    Once I hit cap I felt horribly gimped until I got my eFang slotted with aligned planes. Once I had that the character was pretty much done and she performed fine for me though movement and buff management were of utmost importance of course. She was fine in the old epics, not sure how she'd fair in EE's without considerable effort put into tac det DCs (via sorc PLs for instance).

    I guess my point is that while it isn't a cookie cutter build it can certainly pull its weight if built and geared well but be careful to manage expectations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post

    I guess my point is that while it isn't a cookie cutter build it can certainly pull its weight if built and geared well but be careful to manage expectations.
    Heh. Ya, but I'm way to lazy to work that hard.
    Osharan, Esharan, Osharina, Usharina, etc... I'm the 'sharans. Epoxy. Notverysexy.
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