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  1. #1
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    Default Why the changes?

    Theres been a few thread recently relating to the Warforged race and ingeneral the recent nerfs or incoming nerfs are always bought up.


    As a WF player myself - I think 12 of my alts are WF - its a subject that interests me.

    Did the Devs ever give a reason as to why these changes have been/ are being made or did they just happen?

    Are they becoming more, or less like their PnP counterparts? (Ive never PnP'd so have no idea)


    It would be nice to know Turbines long term plans for them

  2. #2
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    They nerfed wf immunities for the same reason they nerfed paladin and monk immunities... because they made an entire expansion revolve around mobs that use poison and to have entire races and classes immune, or anyone with a ml5 necklace, makes it a whole lot less epic.

    They nerfed healing because they moved to a new way of calculating spell damage, and focused on keeping offensive spells at about where they were prior to the change, which unintentionally buffed heals, so they fixed it [edit:the fix actually lowered heals, but buffed cures slightly from where they were prior to the update]. They said 3 months ago that not nerfing recon was an oversight and that it would be fixed too. That time has come.

    This puts wf in a bad position, the higher your level goes and the higer the dificulty setting, the more important it becomes to be able to heal. So wf become progressivly weaker. And what do they get in return? they dont need a water breathing item and dont get level drained... thats about it.

    They are still viable for casual dificuly tho.
    Last edited by Lonnbeimnech; 10-16-2012 at 03:00 AM.

  3. #3
    Bwest Fwiends Memnir's Avatar
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    I don't think that any of the Devs currently play a WF or particularly care about them very much at this point in the game's lifespan. It's a shame to see the single token playable race from the game's primary setting is getting such shabby treatment. But hey... it's all about the Realms now, right Devs?

    Beyond level-drain immunity, here is no longer a single reason to play a Warforged. And they certainly no longer are worth the price-tag that is fixed to them. Sad thing is, I don't think the Devs even give a damn that they've thrashed one of their game's races so completely - for whatever reason.
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  4. #4
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    I'm no expert on Eberron, but looking up some info, it seems that WF were adjusted to lose some of those immunities with the switch from 3.5 to 4th edition back in 2008. However as another poster mentioned, this didn't apply over to DDO, and probably wouldn't have been changed if it weren't for the emphasis upon poisons in MOTU.

    Here is an article from the designer of Eberron's blog on the topic of WF's transition from 3.5 to 4E:

    http://gloomforge.livejournal.com/10...?thread=399463

    Loss of Immunities. The warforged of 3.5 have a laundry list of immunities. They cannot be poisoned, cannot be paralyzed, and the list goes on and on. The warforged of 4E lack this blanket resistance. They CAN be poisoned, and yes, they can catch diseases. In this, 4E is playing a little more to the idea that warforged are living constructs. In the case of something like a disease, as a writer I envision a warforged suffering different symptoms than a human would from the same disease; his fibrous tendrils become pale and oily, or his leather components begin to rot as the lifeforce that normally maintains them begins to fade. It's stupid to imagine that a warforged would get a sore throat - but a warforged might suffer other equally debilitating effects from the flu that are unique to warforged physiology.

    With all that said, warforged are not immune to disease or poison. But they are resistant to both of these and more. Warforged receive a +2 bonus to Endurance (on top of a +2 Constitution) and a +2 to saving throws versus any sort of ongoing damage - which can include poison, but also being set on fire, struck by acid, affected by a life draining attack, some mental attacks, and so on. They also receive a bonus to Will defense - so while not immune to mental powers, they are resistant to them.

    It's a step down from blanket immunity, but it still preserves the idea that they are BETWEEN human and construct... that they are not immune to the things that trouble humans, but they are resistant to them.
    Also noticed that in pen and paper, WF have a natural 'Slam' attack which seems neat, and perhaps a little easier to implement in the current DDO system than how it was before U14.
    Last edited by JollySwagMan; 10-16-2012 at 05:32 AM.

  5. #5
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    Default Recon Rollback

    The good news is that Eladrin posted recently that the Reconstruct nerf was unintentional and has been rolled back to U15.2 status on Lamania.

    I'm particularly relieved since I was trying to figure out how to TR my WF Acid Savant into another bleeping Human Ice/Air savant. Not that there's anything wrong with Ice/Air Savants - I just like the flavor of having an Earth (Acid) Savant, but can't take the knock (from loss of Constitution) on the Savant by switching to a Human.
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  6. #6
    Hero LOOON375's Avatar
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    Two of my toons are warforged and they are still playable.
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  7. #7
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    WF are still the easy button for casters who solo or dont stick with the group. In a TR scenario trying to grind lives out theres no better race for an arcane. Quickened recon is awesome for healing through damage without having to make concentration rolls, and hold/level drain immunities keep you from being debilitated. They also can start with the highest con in the game.

    As far as comparing them to their PNP counterparts - warforged in PNP receive no healing at all from cure or heal spells. They are getting quite a bit of leeway being able to be healed base 50% and able to get heal amp and spend a few AP to get past 100%.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  8. #8
    Community Member muffinlad's Avatar
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    If I did not have the Blue Dragon Docents already built, I would not return to WF casters on my next TR. I could take the 1/3 scales hit and re-farm the blues.

    WF casters went from excellent to "Playable". Perhaps that was the Dev's intent? However, with the right UMD score and play style, humans/elves/helves have taken the lead for me.

    For my casters that did not have blue scale, they went Human and are not looking back.

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  9. #9
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    I honestly believe that Turbine has no long term plan, for WF or for anything else. There have been too many changes that are neutralized or overcorrected in the next update/patch/hotfix/downtime/whatever. The Reconstruct change/oops just kidding no change is another in a long line.

    Assume that every character you have could be irrevocably broken in the next u/p/h/d/w (and without hope of recompense or repair), because it is the truth.

  10. #10
    The Hatchery Galeria's Avatar
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    Warforged are ugly, all male, and have very few personalization options and fewer docents.

    However, they were cool to play as they offered specific benefits and immunities. You just ignored the ugliness and gear limitations in exchange for some nice playstyle bonuses.

    Now, there is really no reason to play them unless you are playing a class that can cast reconstruct.

    I agree with Mem but cannot rep him again until I pass it around some more. The game is being "balanced" for FR but FR is my least favorite content.

    My husband really, really, really wants me to go to Planetcide with him. It is sounding more appealing. That's not a waah, I'll-leave threat, it's just that I haven't been tempted before.

    This year, I was really excited for the game- druids, FR, epic levels... and with each change I find myself less enchanted and the addiction is clearing up.

    Development is all about Forgotten Realms and I don't find its effects on the game to enhance it- it is just getting watered down.
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  11. #11
    Community Member xtchizobr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    I honestly believe that Turbine has no long term plan, for WF or for anything else. There have been too many changes that are neutralized or overcorrected in the next update/patch/hotfix/downtime/whatever. The Reconstruct change/oops just kidding no change is another in a long line.

    Assume that every character you have could be irrevocably broken in the next u/p/h/d/w (and without hope of recompense or repair), because it is the truth.
    Let's all cross our fingers and hope for a DDO 2.0 ... an entirely new game, probably also F2P, would be nice to correct some of the basic design flaws that have always been so crippling to DDO.

    In my opinion, DDO got off to a rough start due to competition from WoW and a lack of content. Being impeded by a lack of funds and playerbase along with some very basic design philosophy problems has led to the state of the game we currently see.

    A fresh start would allow all of those flaws to be corrected -- and I really don't see any other way to accomplish the changes which need to be made to the basic, underlying design.

    What remains to be seen is how amenable WotC will be to licensing a new version of DDO (given their upcoming 5th edition of D&D), and how willing Turbine (or someone else!!) will be to create this new game. I'm not sure what to think about the Neverwinter MMO that's coming up, but I'd be willing to bet it won't resemble DDO at all. Or Neverwinter Nights.

    Alas!

    A good D&D MMO just isn't in the foreseeable future -- Paizo's Pathfinder MMO isn't even in development yet, so we shall see about that one...
    Last edited by xtchizobr; 10-29-2012 at 04:54 PM.
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  12. #12
    Community Member Bacab's Avatar
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    Dear Devs,

    Racism is only cool when you are racist against elves.

    Put Warforged back to where they were.

    Lets think about this...
    Name every MMO that has Elves in it...
    See...they are like rats...they are what you exterminate in the basement in the walkthrough

    Name every MMO that has Warforged...
    Only DDO!

    Warforged= DDO Featured Race

    Elf=Trash
    Bacab Warforged 18 Arty (Active) Hjealer Dwarven Battle Cleric 10CLR/1FTR
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  13. #13
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    Don't you know its DDO's attempt to lose more players from the game. Its a great marketing concept, to **** off those who play Warforged characters to have them rebel and go play other games instead of DDO. Whats next? Take away rage from barbarians?

    I don't know who the marketing genuis is at DDO or the individual who makes these types of decisions but why the hell are you biting the hand that feeds you. Your #1 business model for this game is to increase player base not reduce it. Keep making these stupid decisions, you will eventually bury yourself's, you and harry will be on the unemployment line.

  14. #14
    The Hatchery GeneralDiomedes's Avatar
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    WF changes are minor in the scheme of things. They still come with more potent immunities than when the game launched.

  15. #15
    Community Member Ushurak's Avatar
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    Dear Devs,

    I, like other players in DDO, PAYED for the Warforged Race even though I was VIP.
    I am not sure what your intention towards/regarding WF was when deciding to turn WF into a hard-to heal-fleshling, but ROLL US BACK.

    This is a PREMIUM race. It SHOULD have some things that place it a bit over the top.
    THIS, out of EVERYTHING that I have NEVER complained about is the one thing that is swiftly turning me against DDO/Turbine completely.

    The only things we have left to our advantage are things that most fleshlings have covered already anyway.
    Higher Con? Dwarf
    Resistance to poison/disease, etc? Immunity goggles... stuck a cob up their ass too, didntcha...
    Level Drain? DB item which by level 12 EVERYONE is carrying around (or should be).
    Arcane heals (reconstruct)? Fleshlings are now bragging about how they UMD EVERYTHING under the sun and while it isn't quite the same, once mastered, it works pretty darn well for the player that can get to used to it.

    So please, tell me again...WHY DID I PAY FOR THIS RACE?
    Oh? You mean I payed for WF for ALL OF THE THINGS YOU STOLE FROM ME?

    Makes sense.......
    Last edited by Ushurak; 11-03-2012 at 12:47 PM.
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  16. #16
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    Whoever is in charge of coming up with the nitty gritty changes (the actual rules and mechanics) can't decide if they want to make the game more like 4E , or move it completely away from D&D. Recent changes indicate both. The only unified vision is to move it away from the 3E ruleset it was based on.

    Also, whoever makes those decisions just isn't very good at designing rules mechanics.

    Personally, I wish they would just make up their minds about which direction they want to go, and do it. This half-ass approach just makes everything worse, and creates an appearance of incompetence on the dev's parts.

  17. #17
    The Hatchery MRMechMan's Avatar
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    As a few people mentioned, I would imagine the devs show the same kind of long term planning and balance for the warforged race as they do for the rest of the game. That is to say, very little to none.

    It is equally clear that there is no one on the inside "pulling" for the race like there is clearly someone pulling for monks, artis and the need to have all the new raid loot have pony references. The recent move to nerf reconstruct (how do things like that show up on lama if they are not at least *thinking* about it..?) shows that if anything, a few of 'em have it out for WF.

    The healing amp issue that went on that crippled divine and melee WF and was essentially ignored is more evidence. Except, it wasn't ignored, they tested it and thought it was WAI because not a single dev knew how WF amp really worked...pro tip, read the wiki!

    I don't really care about poison/diseases...with WF con and +10 or whatever to saves, the occasional 1 vs mummy rot is not a big deal...I actually understand this change, and support it.

    Warforged is still a good race for TRing casters, but at endgame fleshie is pretty clearly better.

    All of this leads me to a simple conclusion: I suspect that the release of the FR setting resulted in a subtle or not-so-subtle phasing out of the race...perhaps the raise in price of the WF race was another way of doing that. Can't have all those drow rangers named drizzt and human wizards named Gandalf having their poor eyes sullied with robots running around, can we? Most unseemly!

    I hope the enhancement pass shows the WF race some love. It really does need it. A good 50+% of their enhancements are utterly useless, 30% are aimed at WF barbs which are utterly eclipsed by any race anyway, and 20% is just getting back on par with fleshie (-ASF% or +amp).

    It is a p2p race and yet it is increasingly one of the most useless.

  18. #18
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMechMan View Post
    As a few people mentioned, I would imagine the devs show the same kind of long term planning and balance for the warforged race as they do for the rest of the game. That is to say, very little to none.

    It is equally clear that there is no one on the inside "pulling" for the race like there is clearly someone pulling for monks, artis and the need to have all the new raid loot have pony references. The recent move to nerf reconstruct (how do things like that show up on lama if they are not at least *thinking* about it..?) shows that if anything, a few of 'em have it out for WF.

    The healing amp issue that went on that crippled divine and melee WF and was essentially ignored is more evidence. Except, it wasn't ignored, they tested it and thought it was WAI because not a single dev knew how WF amp really worked...pro tip, read the wiki!

    I don't really care about poison/diseases...with WF con and +10 or whatever to saves, the occasional 1 vs mummy rot is not a big deal...I actually understand this change, and support it.

    Warforged is still a good race for TRing casters, but at endgame fleshie is pretty clearly better.

    All of this leads me to a simple conclusion: I suspect that the release of the FR setting resulted in a subtle or not-so-subtle phasing out of the race...perhaps the raise in price of the WF race was another way of doing that. Can't have all those drow rangers named drizzt and human wizards named Gandalf having their poor eyes sullied with robots running around, can we? Most unseemly!

    I hope the enhancement pass shows the WF race some love. It really does need it. A good 50+% of their enhancements are utterly useless, 30% are aimed at WF barbs which are utterly eclipsed by any race anyway, and 20% is just getting back on par with fleshie (-ASF% or +amp).

    It is a p2p race and yet it is increasingly one of the most useless.
    Honestly I'm more worried about the enhancement pass. The WF racial PrE is Juggernaut, right? The last thing we need is casters being even better as tanks, an executive gets one whiff of that and we'll get stuck with d1 hit dice or something.

    Also, we can always hold on to not being as ugly as helfs.

  19. #19
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    I'd say, the change was more aimed towards the fancy new mobs with their poisons. These mobs couldn't be harmless. in any way I hate it if someone cannot accept the results of the actions he did beforehand. WF are immune for a reason, they are the reason why people choose them as a race.

    Now, a Dwarf is far ahead of a WF. And that with no TP spending. The change was unneeded at best, in epic elite no poison is killing you, but the raw dps of mobs is and that way faster than a poison timer.

    If I had not bought the race 2 years ago, I never did now. And I recommend any new player: ignore WFs. Save TP.
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  20. #20
    Community Member vampiregoat69's Avatar
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    Default What the hell

    I have been gone for some time but decided to come back. Just to find out that all my WF are no longer immune to anything at all I might as well delete them and start over as human since I am just as vulnerable as they are. There seems to me to be no point in being a WF now since the immunities helped me to deal with things other races in the party might have counted on me to have immunities to now I can be poisoned, earth grabbed and God only knows what. Thanks turbine ONCE again for the Nerf hammer hitting hard on something I liked guess I should have not re-upped to vip and just stuck with my guns of avoiding this game and trying to keep others from the same mistake. ARRGH

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