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  1. #61

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    All good thoughts in terms of increading dps.

    Lately I've been doing three trial by fury runs every day trying to farm up a goristro hide, once with this paladin, once with my pale trapper, and once with my tempest trapmonkey. The tempest has (by far) the lowest saves, and the difference between him and the pally is night and day. Now more than ever I value this pally's saves, and doubt I'll drop -6 will saves by dropping force of personality and brace for impact.

    I hear you on cleave, and recognize that many consider the cleave line a muist-have on any melee. Anyone who wants to change around the build to fit it in is welcome. For me personally, I'm sticking with it as written. Extend greatly increases my "quality of life", but if I wanted the cleave line I'd drop force of personality, extend and stunning blow.

  2. #62
    Community Member Fedora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodoze View Post
    No problem, glad to help. Just doing what I can to see more good Paladins in game !
    Yes, Paladins are a favorite of mine, along with fighters and rangers (or any mix thereof). Being an altoholic and a combined total experience of less than a year of play-time I don't have any high level toons, but I do have several Paladin builds I am trying.

    My first Paladin was a failure - followed a default path for about 7 levels before I found out how bad that gimps them. I did the enhancement respec and fixed him up a bit along with the free feat trade, but then I left off playing him at level 8 (he was a 2HF) to try a Drow. Really enjoyed this one better (2WF) and made it to level 10 before trying other classes/races/builds.

    Recently I created 2 more Paladins (human) but with multiclass ambitions. Both going for Kensai, one with Falchion (and the KotC path) the other with B-sword (obviously going for DoS). Again, wanting to try something new, I am currently (mostly) playing a Human 2WF Khopesh Ranger (with 2 levels of fighter splashed) that just hit level 10.

    However - this thread is making me want to build an evasion Pally !!NOW!! lol.

    Being an altoholic may mean I need to buy Vet2..... But man that's a lot of TP.....

  3. #63
    Community Member Fedora's Avatar
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    I just got done building one of these in the CharGen, and I think I like it.

    It is 90%+ similar to your posted build. Here are the differences as I recall:

    Skills:

    I tried to work in Disable Device by using a +2 INT tome at level 7 and stealing some points from concentrate. My play style (as a primarily melee) is to do all my healing and buffs outside of battle, though I did take concentrate up to 17.

    I traded Force of Personality and GTHF for Cleave and Greater Cleave.

    Also swapped the enhancements Sneak Attack and the Resist of Good line for Smite Evil III, Exalted Smite II, Paladin Charisma I.

    Looking forward to playing this one!

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora View Post
    Also swapped the enhancements Sneak Attack and the Resist of Good line for Smite Evil III, Exalted Smite II, Paladin Charisma I.

    Looking forward to playing this one!
    A note on exalted smite: If you end up going with fury of the wild, you'll quickly reserve all your smites for adrenaline, which add +16 to the crit range. Meaning exalted smite II offers no benefit over Exalted Smite I. This, of course, only applies to staying in fury of the wild. Exalted smite III, OTOH... hehheh

    Sneak attack is fine to drop; that's really only in there as a nod to adding some dps while grouping.

    Not sure what the pally cha I gets you.

    I'll be interested to hear back how it works at high levels with -7 will saves.

  5. #65
    Community Member Fedora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    A note on exalted smite: If you end up going with fury of the wild, you'll quickly reserve all your smites for adrenaline, which add +16 to the crit range. Meaning exalted smite II offers no benefit over Exalted Smite I. This, of course, only applies to staying in fury of the wild. Exalted smite III, OTOH... hehheh

    Sneak attack is fine to drop; that's really only in there as a nod to adding some dps while grouping.

    Not sure what the pally cha I gets you.

    I'll be interested to hear back how it works at high levels with -7 will saves.
    No idea what fury is - never went past level 10 yet.

    Exalted Smite 2 is +1 to your weapon's critical threat range, combined with Improved Critical feat should be nice, pre-epic levels, no? Do they not stack?

    Cha+1 alone not much, but I figure Charisma tomes (+1 and +2 variety) are fairly cheap if you watch the AH for a little while.

    And it's not really -7 will saves, I look at it like it's more like "not" +7.

    Seriously, just going by our relative experience levels I'm probably going to find out your choices are better. I'm just having fun on the journey. At least enhancements are easy to respec, and the free feat is still there.

    As far as dropping concentrate for some disable device, what think ye?

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora View Post
    Exalted Smite 2 is +1 to your weapon's critical threat range, combined with Improved Critical feat should be nice, pre-epic levels, no? Do they not stack?
    They do, and it is nice during pre-epic questing. It only applies to smites, meaning you get no benefit most of the time, but during boss fights it can be nice.

    Cha+1 alone not much, but I figure Charisma tomes (+1 and +2 variety) are fairly cheap if you watch the AH for a little while.
    The build is designed with tomes in mind. +1 at level 13 gets you even, then way down the road you can upgrade that to a +3 if you get a lucky pull or maybe just rich. (~600k on the ah.)

    The cha enhancement won't help qualify for divine might, but it does help your loh and smites a tiny bit. Probably not worth it, but it doesn't hurt to try it out. One thing you won't be lacking at all is turns, so it doesn't really help there. (Mine has like 22 turns.)

    As far as dropping concentrate for some disable device, what think ye?
    Disable requires search to find the box in the first place. I originally tried to make a pally trapper, but the skill points are hurting.

    One option is to start with 16 strength instead of 18, then put those 6 points into intelligence. (15 instead of 10.) That gives you an extra 2 skill points per level, which would let you raise both search and disable to enable trapping. If you then eat a +1 tome at level 3 you'll have a third extra skill point from then on to boost spot. It could probably work pretty well.

    I wouldn't lower concentration at all, though. It's pretty critical.

  7. #67
    Community Member Fedora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    It only applies to smites, meaning you get no benefit most of the time, but during boss fights it can be nice.
    Oh yeah, that makes sense. What are the chances of getting a crit on that 1 swing, huh? Okay well I can drop that and get back 2 of the 3 Resist of Good enhancements.


    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I wouldn't lower concentration at all, though. It's pretty critical.
    Okay. To be more specific, it looks like I dropped the +4 swim at level 1 and used that for the DD as well. I'll take your advice and rework it to bring concentrate back up those 6 points (I had 17 vs your 23). The STR/INT swap could work too....

    Thanks!

  8. #68
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora View Post
    ...However - this thread is making me want to build an evasion Pally !!NOW!! lol.

    Being an altoholic may mean I need to buy Vet2..... But man that's a lot of TP.....
    What did you get for Christmas? Personally I view it as a quality of life thing and prefer to vet2 when I can as the earliest content is where I have the most repeats and was totally sick of it. I like being able to vet2 and try out ideas easily as ideas often start to show promise at that point (or not) and has gotten me where I now don't dread the initial content and TRs & new characters aren't so bad an idea anymore...
    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora View Post
    No idea what fury is - never went past level 10 yet.

    Exalted Smite 2 is +1 to your weapon's critical threat range, combined with Improved Critical feat should be nice, pre-epic levels, no? Do they not stack? ...
    They do, and it is nice during pre-epic questing. It only applies to smites, meaning you get no benefit most of the time, but during boss fights it can be nice. ...

    Disable requires search to find the box in the first place. I originally tried to make a pally trapper, but the skill points are hurting.

    One option is to start with 16 strength instead of 18, then put those 6 points into intelligence. (15 instead of 10.) That gives you an extra 2 skill points per level, which would let you raise both search and disable to enable trapping. If you then eat a +1 tome at level 3 you'll have a third extra skill point from then on to boost spot. It could probably work pretty well.

    I wouldn't lower concentration at all, though. It's pretty critical.
    I agree regarding concentration & think EllisDee37 is spot on & personally would leave out things like disable & search and be spot off (pun intended) as with Pally Evasion you shouldn't need to worry about EN & EH traps.

    To learn more about Fury of the Wild (FotW), I would first read about http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Destinies in general and then delve specifically into http://ddowiki.com/page/Fury_of_the_Wild as FotW gives Paladins some needed flair... FoTW becomes an option at level 20+ and personally I like the multitude of 20+ Destiny options even more than 1-20. While the +1 threat range is helpful pre-epic (before getting Fury at level 20) it matters less & less in FotW after level 20 as your Critical Threat Range goes up to +16 and going to +17 isn't worth 2APs... On a related note, I have replied on multiple KoTC3-Fury threads that in FotW Exalted Smite 3 is enough as Exalted Smite 4 also doesn't give much (certainly not for the AP cost) and as a general rule I think FoTW Paladins should reset enhancements after 20 to do odd Exalted Smites only (ES-1 or ES-3 and not waste APs on ES-2 or ES-4) with their Adrenaline charges...
    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nodoze View Post
    ...For another third twist alternative, since Adrenaline'd Divine Sacrifices are also really good one thing you might consider is dropping 'Force of Personality' and taking Cleave and then twisting 'Momentum Swing' from Legendary Dreadnought. It should give you a nice AOE DPS capability and gives you something to spam in addition to Divine Sacrifice while waiting for Adrenaline and Smites to recharge... You may find you like it so much that you try to also fit in Great Cleave but [just] Cleave may be enough. ...
    ...I hear you on cleave, and recognize that many consider the cleave line a must-have on any melee. Anyone who wants to change around the build to fit it in is welcome. For me personally, I'm sticking with it as written. Extend greatly increases my "quality of life", but if I wanted the cleave line I'd drop force of personality, extend and stunning blow.
    IF going the cleave route, in addition to Cleave & Great-Cleave, would the 3rd Feat you would swap be 'Overwhelming Critical' ?

    My original idea was 'to have your cake and eat it too' and hopefully get 60%+ of the Cleave route gains by only swapping one feat and the "meh" 3rd Twist (that you haven't taken yet anyway)...

    It sounds like you don't have your goristro hide yet anyway so what do you have to lose to try it and see for yourself?

    You could temporarily swap stunning for (just) Cleave & temporarily swap a Twist to grab "Momentum Swing" to see if the rotation fits you... With just Cleave & Momentum Swing you may get more than enough...

    If you end up really liking just single Cleave & Momentum Swing then you may get excited to grind out that 3rd Twist (instead of being 'meh') and not notice a little loss of "quality of life" (that was even worse in levels 1-20 anyway) and swap Extend for stunning and have all the tricks...

    As a side benefit, Murphy's Law indicates that as soon as you temporarily swap Stunning to try it your Goristro will drop so it should help save your grinding (win-win-win) !
    Last edited by Nodoze; 01-04-2013 at 04:44 PM. Reason: added link for Epic Destinies in general for context/education...

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodoze View Post
    IF going the cleave route, in addition to Cleave & Great-Cleave, would the 3rd Feat you would swap be 'Overwhelming Critical' ?
    Yep; I consider it a single 3-feat line.

    My original idea was 'to have your cake and eat it too' and hopefully get 60%+ of the Cleave route gains by only swapping one feat and the "meh" 3rd Twist (that you haven't taken yet anyway)...

    It sounds like you don't have your goristro hide yet anyway so what do you have to lose to try it and see for yourself?

    You could temporarily swap stunning for (just) Cleave & temporarily swap a Twist to grab "Momentum Swing" to see if the rotation fits you... With just Cleave & Momentum Swing you may get more than enough...

    If you end up really liking just single Cleave & Momentum Swing then you may get excited to grind out that 3rd Twist (instead of being 'meh') and not notice a little loss of "quality of life" (that was even worse in levels 1-20 anyway) and swap Extend for stunning and have all the tricks...

    As a side benefit, Murphy's Law indicates that as soon as you temporarily swap Stunning to try it your Goristro will drop so it should help save your grinding (win-win-win) !
    You make a compelling case; I like the reasoning.

    Right at the moment I'm getting really into my cleric's wizard life TR -- he just hit 10 so glorious greensteel is only 1 level away, then 3 more to get form and he really comes into his own -- so I doubt I'll be able to tear myself away for anything other than my daily goristro runs and bi-weekly ADQ runs. (My main wizard needs consort bracers.) As soon as my TR fever starts to ebb, though, I think I'll try this out.

    I'm pretty into extend, though; I might swap Stunning Blow, ITHF and GTHF instead. Pretty sure my pally hasn't used his free LR yet, so...

  10. #70
    Community Member Fedora's Avatar
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    Default Stick to the Plan!

    I decided to go ahead and try this build, leaving off my main for a while.

    Reminder to self - when you plan a build, do not deviate on a whim without trying it out in the CharGenerator!

    Noob mistake follows:

    When I created this toon (with Vet status) thought "Hey, a half elf would be cool, with.... with..... (wait for it).... Bard Dilettante feats/enhancements! Yeah, cause that would be so cool!

    Not.

    Less skill points from half elf breaks the build. Taking Dilettante feat breaks the build. Bard Dilettante without perform skill is suboptimal.

    Lesson learned.

    Reroll as human and STICK TO THE PLAN! So far fun to play, doing the low level favor runs on elite to get used to the various clickie things and tactics.

    Thanks again for posting this!

  11. #71
    Community Member Sarzor's Avatar
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    I've had a few people ask me for details on making this a solid TR build. Below I posted the build. Of note is I have +3 tomes in all stats and +4 in WIS, so stats are adjusted accordingly. If you have a +2 INT tome only, you can drop INT down to 10. Same with bumping charisma up to get DM III if you have a smaller tome.

    Enhancements aren't included as they are rather fluid. The main difference from the OP's enhancements are I didn't use the rogue haste boost and took a level less of devotion in order to take rogue dexterity and a human adaption in constitution to even out stat points.

    Fundamental piece of equipment which I used:
    1) Vampiric cleaver - Helps alot on the heals. I used this primarily due to the ability to minimize having to heal myself mid-fight.
    2) The sword from holy sword spell - If you, like me, don't have alot of gear kicking around, this sword does fantastic damage while breaking DR of almost everything after level 15 except tharaak hounds, all while not taking up more than 1 inventory slot. Even better is it dissapears at the end of the life so I don't have another item clogging up my TR cache.
    3) SP Con-opp/torc - Yes, there are better dps items, but with the exception of TRed barbs, I was leading the dps battle in my PUGs by a wide margin up until about level 18 and at that point it was all about grinding out that last xp. These items basically enable you to keep up all the paladin spells and heals without really worrying about running out.
    4) Carnifex with force on it - Level 4-10, 'nuff said.
    5) GH clickie - This combined with boots of the innocent meant that I failed very, very few reflex saves, and I didn't even have DEX items on. By level 18 I had 48 reflex, and with the human versatility saves boost could have 51. You evade a whole lot with those numbers.
    6) The various deathblock cloaks of night - Deathblock + the paladin immunity to negative levels + HoD restorations for the random stat damage meant that fighting beholders was almost... fun. Yes, this is a laziness item, but I liked it.

    Code:
    Character Generated Using: DDO Character Generator
    Direct Link to Build: http://www.ddochargen.com/home.aspx?build=31924
    
    Paladin 18 / Rogue 2
    Male Human (Lawful Good)
    ________________________________________________________________
    
    PAST LIVES SELECTED:
    Favored Soul (1), Ranger (1), Sorcerer (1), Wizard (2)
    ________________________________________________________________
    
    LEVEL 1
    Race Selected: Male Human
    Alignment Selected: Lawful Good
    Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 1)
    Abilities Raised: STR: 18, DEX: 11, CON: 14, INT: 11, CHA: 15
    Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +4 (4), Bluff +1 (1),
    Concentration +2 (2), Disable Device +4 (4), Jump +4 (4),
    Open Lock +4 (4), Search +4 (4), Spot +4 (4), Tumble +3 (3),
    UMD +4 (4)
    Feats Selected: Toughness, Power Attack
    ________________________________________________________________
    
    LEVEL 2:
    Class Selected: Paladin (Paladin 1 / Rogue 1)
    Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +3 (5)
    ________________________________________________________________
    
    LEVEL 3:
    Class Selected: Paladin (Paladin 2 / Rogue 1)
    Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +1 (6), UMD +1 (5)
    Feats Selected: Cleave
    Tomes Applied: STR: +1, DEX: +1, CON: +1, INT: +1,
    WIS: +1, CHA: +1
    ________________________________________________________________
    
    LEVEL 4:
    Class Selected: Paladin (Paladin 3 / Rogue 1)
    Abilities Raised: STR: 20
    Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1.5 (5.5), Concentration +1 (7)
    ________________________________________________________________
    
    LEVEL 5:
    Class Selected: Paladin (Paladin 4 / Rogue 1)
    Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1.5 (7), Concentration +1 (8)
    ________________________________________________________________
    
    LEVEL 6:
    Class Selected: Paladin (Paladin 5 / Rogue 1)
    Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1.5 (8.5), Concentration +1 (9)
    Feats Selected: Great Cleave
    ________________________________________________________________
    
    LEVEL 7:
    Class Selected: Paladin (Paladin 6 / Rogue 1)
    Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1.5 (10), Concentration +1 (10)
    Tomes Applied: STR: +2, DEX: +2, CON: +2, INT: +2,
    WIS: +2, CHA: +2
    ________________________________________________________________
    
    LEVEL 8:
    Class Selected: Rogue (Paladin 6 / Rogue 2)
    Abilities Raised: STR: 22
    Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (11), Open Lock +3 (7),
    UMD +6 (11)
    ________________________________________________________________
    
    LEVEL 9:
    Class Selected: Paladin (Paladin 7 / Rogue 2)
    Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +2 (12), UMD +1 (12)
    Feats Selected: Improved Critical (Slashing)
    ________________________________________________________________
    
    LEVEL 10:
    Class Selected: Paladin (Paladin 8 / Rogue 2)
    Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +0.5 (11.5), Concentration +1 (13),
    UMD +1 (13)
    ________________________________________________________________
    
    LEVEL 11:
    Class Selected: Paladin (Paladin 9 / Rogue 2)
    Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +0.5 (12), Concentration +1 (14),
    Open Lock +1 (8)
    Tomes Applied: STR: +3, DEX: +3, CON: +3, INT: +3,
    WIS: +3, CHA: +3
    ________________________________________________________________
    
    LEVEL 12:
    Class Selected: Paladin (Paladin 10 / Rogue 2)
    Abilities Raised: STR: 24
    Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +1 (15),
    Open Lock +1 (9), UMD +1 (14)
    Feats Selected: Two-Handed Fighting
    ________________________________________________________________
    
    LEVEL 13:
    Class Selected: Paladin (Paladin 11 / Rogue 2)
    Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +1 (16), UMD +2 (16)
    ________________________________________________________________
    
    LEVEL 14:
    Class Selected: Paladin (Paladin 12 / Rogue 2)
    Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (13), Concentration +1 (17),
    UMD +1 (17)
    ________________________________________________________________
    
    LEVEL 15:
    Class Selected: Paladin (Paladin 13 / Rogue 2)
    Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (14), Concentration +1 (18),
    UMD +1 (18)
    Feats Selected: Empower Healing Spell
    Tomes Applied: WIS: +4
    ________________________________________________________________
    
    LEVEL 16:
    Class Selected: Paladin (Paladin 14 / Rogue 2)
    Abilities Raised: STR: 25
    Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (15), Concentration +1 (19),
    UMD +1 (19)
    ________________________________________________________________
    
    LEVEL 17:
    Class Selected: Paladin (Paladin 15 / Rogue 2)
    Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (16), Concentration +1 (20),
    UMD +1 (20)
    ________________________________________________________________
    
    LEVEL 18:
    Class Selected: Paladin (Paladin 16 / Rogue 2)
    Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (17), Concentration +1 (21),
    UMD +1 (21)
    Feats Selected: Improved Two-Handed Fighting
    ________________________________________________________________
    
    LEVEL 19:
    Class Selected: Paladin (Paladin 17 / Rogue 2)
    Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (18), Concentration +1 (22),
    UMD +1 (22)
    ________________________________________________________________
    
    LEVEL 20:
    Class Selected: Paladin (Paladin 18 / Rogue 2)
    Abilities Raised: STR: 26
    Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (19), Concentration +1 (23), UMD +1 (23)

  12. #72

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    I'm tempted to switch out Stunning Blow (which I took at 24) for cleave and then later on decide if I want to switch out 2 more feats for great cleave and overwhelming critical.

    Just regular cleave is useful, right?

  13. #73
    Community Member Fedora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Just regular cleave is useful, right?
    I love it. Cool down is faster than stun/trip/sunder. Damage is awesome and hits pretty much everything in front of you. My first three feats for most any melee build is Toughness, PA, and Cleave. I'm certainly no expert, but Cleave is IMO the best feat for melees.

  14. #74
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I'm tempted to switch out Stunning Blow (which I took at 24) for cleave and then later on decide if I want to switch out 2 more feats for great cleave and overwhelming critical.

    Just regular cleave is useful, right?
    Regular Cleave is normally useful but becomes much more interesting when combined with Momentum Swing (twisted from LD's Tier 2). I would also change to temporarily fully Twist in Momentum Swing and see how you like it and if a single Cleave is resetting Momentum Swing often enough for you.

    Momentum Swing should give you an AOE attack with +5[W] damage and +3 critical threat range (compared to to Cleave +1W & Great Cleave +2W damage). Momentum Swing has a cool-down of 1 min but both Cleave attacks have a 50% chance to reset the cool-down of Momentum Swing (this cannot occur more than once every 3 seconds).

    My thought that for a single feat/twist (and worst case 2 feats/1twist) Momentum Swing may be really helpful to increase DPS in general & especially for doing AOE damage.

    I would then try to Adrenalize your Momentum Swings and see how you like them compared to Adrenalized Divine Sacrifices when your Adrenalized Smites are on cool-downs. This should hopefully give you a good room clearer with many mobs are present and still be good on bosses or single targets.

    All in all a single feat swap & single Twist test to see if you like it. If you do like it then you have a good reason to grind out your 3rd Twist.

    Note: My original idea was only taking Cleave or at most Cleave & Great Cleave to combine with & reset Momentum Swing. Overwhelming Critical should further increase DPS but isn't required to reset Momentum Swing and doesn't make it reset more often...
    Last edited by Nodoze; 01-07-2013 at 03:31 PM. Reason: making more clear...

  15. #75
    Community Member Purkilius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I'm tempted to switch out Stunning Blow (which I took at 24) for cleave and then later on decide if I want to switch out 2 more feats for great cleave and overwhelming critical.

    Just regular cleave is useful, right?
    Before I TR´ed my melee I feat swapped for both cleaves and OC and the result was wow
    Argo: Hilmir - Purkilius - Jinu - Vignir

  16. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodoze View Post
    I would then try to Adrenalize your Momentum Swings and see how you like them compared to Adrenalized Divine Sacrifices when your Adrenalized Smites are on cool-downs. This should hopefully give you a good room clearer with many mobs are present and still be good on bosses or single targets.
    I like this idea a lot, for several reasons. Thanks much!

  17. #77

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    For the last couple days I've been thinking hard about this build's feats. Right now I'm leaning toward suggesting two possible paths and letting the player decide for themselves. One is clicky-heavy, the other is a more passive dps approach:

    1. Cleave
    2. Great Cleave
    3. Overwhelming Critical
    4. Player's choice: Stunning Blow, Hamstring, Improved Trip, Improved Sunder

    1. Two handed Fighting
    2. Improved Two handed Fighting
    3. Greater Two handed Fighting
    4. Cleave

    I think the second (passive) line is actually more dps, but the first would be way more fun for people who enjoy active combat.

    Thoughts?

  18. #78
    Community Member Fedora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    For the last couple days I've been thinking hard about this build's feats. Right now I'm leaning toward suggesting two possible paths and letting the player decide for themselves. One is clicky-heavy, the other is a more passive dps approach:

    1. Cleave
    2. Great Cleave
    3. Overwhelming Critical
    4. Player's choice: Stunning Blow, Hamstring, Improved Trip, Improved Sunder

    1. Two handed Fighting
    2. Improved Two handed Fighting
    3. Greater Two handed Fighting
    4. Cleave

    I think the second (passive) line is actually more dps, but the first would be way more fun for people who enjoy active combat.

    Thoughts?
    I am now at level 7 with this build (Rogue1/Paladin6) and I have taken (so far) Power Attack, Cleave, and 2HF. So I can still go with either option you have presented though I took Cleave ahead of 2HF. You are right about the second option being more click-heavy, and I am still trying to get used to alternating trip/sunder/cleave/smite/ds, usually end up hitting the divine sacrifice when there is no one left standing and and cleave when there is only 1 attacker left lol. So the more passive line might be a better fit for my bad keyboard/mouse skills.

  19. #79
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Default Sentinels and eChimera's Fang

    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    You're forgetting glancing blows w/b.sword vs none w/scimitar. We're presumably talking a S&B pally tank here, otherwise you'd be using a 2H weapon and the point is moot.

    Except having just Least DM only adds +1 to eCF (and free b.sword prof); you need the entire Sentinel DM chain to unleash eCF's full potential (+10, +20% incite, Superior Parrying, +50% exceptional Fort).
    Agreed, it's the ability to sword and board with greater DPS that puts eFang ahead. But just to clarify--doesn't eFang grant +10, +15, and +20% with the three dragon marks? That's the impression I got. I didn't think that the greater dragonmark 20% overrode the other incite bonuses... in that way, I thought of it as a great consolidation item.

    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    Unless you really want that Expeditious Retreat clickie, I'm not seeing the advantage to Least Sentinel DM vs b.sword prof.
    Least sentinel mark grants you +2 to intimidate as well, which is 2/3s the efficacy of investing in a Skill Focus: intimidate feat. In that sense, I do find it quite worth the investment all on its own. It's still noteworthy to be aware that you will lose proficiency if you lack Exotic:BS feat and switch to shield+Nightmare relic, for instance.
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  20. #80
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    With 10 feats (7 base + 1 human + 2 epic), that's enough for Toughness, Power Atk, IC:Slash, THF x3, Cleave/GC/OC, with one left over to round things out.

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