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  1. #81
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    I'd rather not see 10K Stars turns into a feat. Right now, archery is already far more feat intensive than any of the other styles.

    Everyone wants Improved Critical.
    THF:
    PA, THF, ITHF, GTHF, maybe Cleave and Great Cleave if you are working toward Overwhelming Critical (though archers would also like this)--4 to 6 feats.
    TWF:
    TWF, ITWF, GTWF, PA or Precision. 4 or 5 feats, unless you're working toward OC, but everyone really wants to be doing that anyway.
    S&B:
    PA, CE, SM, ISM, ISB, Tower Shield Proficiency (free with a level of fighter) -- 6 feats.
    Archery:
    Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Improved Precise Shot, Bow Strength (free with a level of ranger) -- 6. Zen Archery if you're a monk or have monk levels -- 7. Prerequisites may change, but currently you also need Weapon Focus and either Mental Toughness, Arcane Prodigy or a level in wiz/sorc/arti/bard -- 8 or 9 feats. And archers aren't getting OC at that point.

    So:
    THF -- 6 feats + OC at epic levels
    TWF --4-5 feats, or 6-7 feats + OC at epic levels
    S&B -- 6 feats, with room to go after OC at epic (8 feats) or build for DPS (9 feats)
    Archery -- 6 feats, 7 with monk levels, 8-9 (currently) for Arcane Archer, 9-11 if you also want OC

    Turning 10K Stars into a feat puts monk-based archers at 8+ feats, before fitting in Improved Critical. Given how much weaker archery is than melee is most of the time, this is already egregious without further adding to the bloat.
    If they make good on their word to reduce feat costs for PREs (and AA is one that gets the treatment), I'd be okay with 10k stars being a feat, especially if that then makes non-monk archers a viable option again.
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  2. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    This should not be interpreted to mean you can get absolutely anything by level 11. Innate abilities are still tentatively level gated and therefore could come earlier or later.
    I was wondering about that. I can see why some abilities should not be accessible by level 11. Right now it looks like a lot of class abilities are front loaded and enhancements are front loaded up to level 11/12ish.

    The only reason to not multi-class is for spells and PrE benefits, if I understand the newer model. Even PrE benefits are suspect in some cases, like drow tempest because drow will get that anyway according to the plans released.

    Do you have some examples of what might still be level gated?

  3. #83
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok.cry View Post
    If they make good on their word to reduce feat costs for PREs (and AA is one that gets the treatment), I'd be okay with 10k stars being a feat, especially if that then makes non-monk archers a viable option again.
    That would still be 7 or 8 feats, which is excessive.

    And if they are going to do that, where non-monks can get 10K Stars, why not just improve Manyshot somehow? And how would 10K Stars work for anyone else? They would have to remove the Ki cost to activate it, and if it kept the current formula of increasing the number of arrows fired based on your Wis modifier, few non-monks would be able to make use of it anyway, which again comes back to "why not just boost Manyshot in that case?"

    I'd rather see monks retain 10K Stars as a lowish tier enhancement, and other classes gain their own, unique abilities for archery, such that the current 6 level monk dip, the 12 monk/6/2 and 18 or 20 monk archers are still viable, while also making 18 or 20 fighters, rangers, rogues and barbarians capable enough with archery to compete.

    The unfortunate part is that, even with (maybe because of) the new combat system, big differences in to-hit aren't terribly relevant, so fighters, for instance, gain relatively little benefit compared to the other classes. I've seen claims, though, that Kensei archers are close-ish to 10K Stars builds in overall damage thanks to the much higher damage per shot and expanded crit range, but haven't seen any figures supporting that with real analysis. If that were the case though, then that would serve as part of the framework for such a model. It would be similar to how Tempests attack "faster" with TWF than anyone else (but monks) full-time, and deal a lot of damage vs. some enemies (more than fighters against their Favored Enemies I believe), while Rogues deal the most damage with TWF when getting sneak attacks, and fighters and barbarians tend to deal the most damage per swing, with fighters getting expanded threat range and high damage per swing on both hands, and barbarians are adding Vicious damage on top of their very high Str (which gets halved on the off-hand). Monks attack the fastest, but have poor crit profiles, so they can deliver on-hit and vorpal effects better than anyone else, but are mediocre when it comes to crit-based effects.

    Sure, rangers are fairly lacking on damage per swing most of the time, but I expect some of that to be made up for with the enhancement pass (and hopefully an eventual spell pass for rangers and paladins).
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  4. #84
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    That would still be 7 or 8 feats, which is excessive.
    While it is more feats than other styles, IF they made ranged combat viable, it would be okay to me. If the cost of ranged power was an excessive number of feats it would be worthwhile, instead it is only one of the costs and still isnt worth while in this game.

    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    And if they are going to do that, where non-monks can get 10K Stars, why not just improve Manyshot somehow? And how would 10K Stars work for anyone else? They would have to remove the Ki cost to activate it, and if it kept the current formula of increasing the number of arrows fired based on your Wis modifier, few non-monks would be able to make use of it anyway, which again comes back to "why not just boost Manyshot in that case?"
    Eladrin said it will exist in some form. By that I assume the basic concept of it will be there, it may not even be called ten k stars any more. I would suggest its arrows proc off of your attack bonus (not base attack, but the whole thing), that way builds that vary in their main stat could use it equally(kind of) well, but we will see what the devs do with it. I don't expect it to be exactly the same at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    I'd rather see monks retain 10K Stars as a lowish tier enhancement, and other classes gain their own, unique abilities for archery, such that the current 6 level monk dip, the 12 monk/6/2 and 18 or 20 monk archers are still viable, while also making 18 or 20 fighters, rangers, rogues and barbarians capable enough with archery to compete.
    So would I, however the devs are lazy(in the sense that generally they will reuse code rather than doing something new or different), and I expect them to continue being lazy. Also all but one hates ranged combat. I think those of us that remember that the warrior classes were not melee classes are few and far between. Barbarians and fighters were masters of combat, not melee beatsticks. At least in actual dungeons and dragons. The devs believe they are just melee characters and those who do something other than melee with them are doing something "special." I would dearly like to see all the classes you mentioned get their own ranged options, along with paladins of the silver flame as well, who's favored weapon is the longbow. But I expect it to never ever happen.
    Last edited by Havok.cry; 10-12-2012 at 02:49 PM.
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  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    I'd rather not see 10K Stars turns into a feat. Right now, archery is already far more feat intensive than any of the other styles.
    Due in part to Bow Strength being a feat instead of just something bows give you. That needs to be fixed.

  6. #86
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok.cry View Post
    While it is more feats than other styles, IF they made ranged combat viable, it would be okay to me. If the cost of ranged power was an excessive number of feats it would be worthwhile, instead it is only one of the costs and still isnt worth while in this game.
    I don't expect to ever see ranged combat get boosted enough to warrant the style costing 2-4 more feats than all of the other combat styles. Not going to happen, even if they do buff archery, which also seems unlikely.
    Eladrin said it will exist in some form. By that I assume the basic concept of it will be there, it may not even be called ten k stars any more. I would suggest its arrows proc off of your attack bonus (not base attack, but the whole thing), that way builds that vary in their main stat could use it equally(kind of) well, but we will see what the devs do with it. I don't expect it to be exactly the same at all.
    You basically just described Manyshot, which was my point--if the ability becomes generic, why not just improve Manyshot somehow? Or change it to work off of a similar system?
    So would I, however the devs are lazy(in the sense that generally they will reuse code rather than doing something new or different), and I expect them to continue being lazy. Also all but one hates ranged combat. I think those of us that remember that the warrior classes were not melee classes are few and far between. Barbarians and fighters were masters of combat, not melee beatsticks. At least in actual dungeons and dragons. The devs believe they are just melee characters and those who do something other than melee with them are doing something "special." I would dearly like to see all the classes you mentioned get their own ranged options, along with paladins of the silver flame as well, who's favored weapon is the longbow. But I expect it to never ever happen.
    Yeah.

    Ranged paladins were pretty poor in 3.5 D&D, though they are quite excellent in Pathfinder. It would be nice to see the option made available and viable for Silver Flame paladins, but I don't expect to see that occur.
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  7. #87
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oweieie View Post
    Due in part to Bow Strength being a feat instead of just something bows give you. That needs to be fixed.
    Agreed wholeheartedly! But I doubt we'll ever see that sort of change. And if we did, we'd probably end up with bows with finite Str ratings, and maybe player enhancements or uncommon to rare weapon enhancements that increase that, but would never encompass, say, the 50+ Str a Kensei can achieve, or the 70+ Str a barbarian can.

    I'd LOVE to see all bows (or at least most random lootgen, and all named bows) simply gain the Bow Strength feat. Maybe leave Rangers with it, such that they can use any bow fully, while everyone else would have to spend a feat or restrict themselves to only using certain bows. Again, though, I'd not expect to see any of that.
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  8. #88
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    I could see Embrace the Void being useful mid-fight if Wholeness of Body procced the shield (maybe not in a boss fight, but useful while soloing); the extra meditations would be more useful at lower levels (when ki is at far more of a premium) but I suspect by the time you get to T3, much less useful - unless you sink all your AP into Henshin, at least).

    Focus would be a lot better if the timer didn't start until you stopped meditating so you could gain the full benefits of it. I don't really see it being useful even vs. a boss - steadily increasing damage for everyone around you, but losing YOUR damage doesn't seem to work, IMHO. Everybody (including yourself) getting the full 30 seconds of the highest stacking, however, *would* be worth it. Sit for 30 seconds and everybody gets +20% damage and +50 USP, vs. 3 seconds of +2%/+5, 3 seconds of +4%/10.... 3 seconds of +18%/45, and either 0 or 3 seconds (depending on whether the first tic starts at 0 or at 3 seconds) of +20%/+50... yeah, no. Also requires casters to remain in range, etc. To me, having a fairly large AoE (letting you get a bit away from the boss and hopefully not get interrupted) and having it start when you get up is key. Lets you pick your own tradeoff - sit for 9 seconds for partial benefit, sit for the full time for full benefit, etc, and lets you participate.

    I like that the animal forms are one-and-done.

    My friend and I were giggling like mad at Breaking Wind and Lighting the Candle last night, because we'd JUST gotten out of a quest where my Fatesinger used Reign while moving for the first time (little puffs of smoke coming out of her butt); Candle looked *nice*... until the "-1 ki gen on hit" bit.

    How are Mystics going to do light *and* dark finishers (and thus presumably both Fists of Light *and* Darkness)? Are Harmonious Balance/Inevitable Dominion going to be autogrants, with HM getting both? Will they stay as feats, with HM getting an autogrant of the other one? I can easily see Shintao/NS taking a couple tiers of the other to get both autogrants; I can also easily see Shintao/NS taking a few tiers of HM for that. The stave stuff pretty much sucks, but if it'll get my monk extra damage and maybe Touch of Death... and I suspect dark months would greatly enjoy the healing benefits. The only way I could really see that working is if HM gets locked into one Philosophy 'til they've got four tiers of HM stuff or something... and I don't really see that working for HM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LrdSlvrhnd View Post
    I could see Embrace the Void being useful mid-fight if Wholeness of Body procced the shield (maybe not in a boss fight, but useful while soloing); the extra meditations would be more useful at lower levels (when ki is at far more of a premium) but I suspect by the time you get to T3, much less useful - unless you sink all your AP into Henshin, at least).

    Focus would be a lot better if the timer didn't start until you stopped meditating so you could gain the full benefits of it. I don't really see it being useful even vs. a boss - steadily increasing damage for everyone around you, but losing YOUR damage doesn't seem to work, IMHO. Everybody (including yourself) getting the full 30 seconds of the highest stacking, however, *would* be worth it. Sit for 30 seconds and everybody gets +20% damage and +50 USP, vs. 3 seconds of +2%/+5, 3 seconds of +4%/10.... 3 seconds of +18%/45, and either 0 or 3 seconds (depending on whether the first tic starts at 0 or at 3 seconds) of +20%/+50... yeah, no. Also requires casters to remain in range, etc. To me, having a fairly large AoE (letting you get a bit away from the boss and hopefully not get interrupted) and having it start when you get up is key. Lets you pick your own tradeoff - sit for 9 seconds for partial benefit, sit for the full time for full benefit, etc, and lets you participate.

    I like that the animal forms are one-and-done.

    My friend and I were giggling like mad at Breaking Wind and Lighting the Candle last night, because we'd JUST gotten out of a quest where my Fatesinger used Reign while moving for the first time (little puffs of smoke coming out of her butt); Candle looked *nice*... until the "-1 ki gen on hit" bit.

    How are Mystics going to do light *and* dark finishers (and thus presumably both Fists of Light *and* Darkness)? Are Harmonious Balance/Inevitable Dominion going to be autogrants, with HM getting both? Will they stay as feats, with HM getting an autogrant of the other one? I can easily see Shintao/NS taking a couple tiers of the other to get both autogrants; I can also easily see Shintao/NS taking a few tiers of HM for that. The stave stuff pretty much sucks, but if it'll get my monk extra damage and maybe Touch of Death... and I suspect dark months would greatly enjoy the healing benefits. The only way I could really see that working is if HM gets locked into one Philosophy 'til they've got four tiers of HM stuff or something... and I don't really see that working for HM.
    From what I saw, the mystic gets a special attack that corresponds to the philosophy that they didn't take. So a light monk would get a special dark attack, and a dark monk would get a special light attack.

  10. #90
    Uber Completionist luvirini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    Currently I'm expecting to make it a feat that can also be taken as a bonus monk feat.
    Moving exisiting enchantments to be feats makes me sad. The nice part with enchantments is that they are easy to re-spec and a fairly plentiful resource. Feats are both harder to swap and and way shorter in supply.

  11. #91
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    Default Clarification

    Wait--do we have:

    1]
    Quote Originally Posted by Will_Ferrer View Post
    I'm noticing that is says Dark Ki melee attack... does that mean that Mystics will be able to perform ALL FINISHERS?
    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    Yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by QuantumFX View Post
    The fact that Henshin Mystic can do both Positive and Negative finishers? Yes, that is interesting.
    Mystics get both philosophies?

    OR

    2]
    Quote Originally Posted by shadereaper33 View Post
    From what I saw, the mystic gets a special attack that corresponds to the philosophy that they didn't take. So a light monk would get a special dark attack, and a dark monk would get a special light attack.
    Quote Originally Posted by rimble View Post
    It's a flip-flop balance thing...Light Monks get to do something naughty, Dark Monks get to do something healy...
    Mystics still choose a single philosophy?

    I'm confused. The latter makes more sense to me but Eladrin said yes to the former?
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  12. #92
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    Default Yes

    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    When I first started posting it I was PM'd and kept it out of general chat. The one's I saw so far were:

    Gust of Wind
    Wounding Whispers (just to edit again, this is a single target sonic DoT that includes 5% physical vulnerability, on the first tier of the tree, so low level. reads d3+2/2lvls)
    Majestic Word (technically this is a song, 15 second cool-down heals d8 per bard level, single target, listed as affected by meta's)
    Lightning Motes
    Phantasmal Killer
    Ray of Exhaustion
    Ooze Puppet
    Dispel Magic (don't ask me why that one was there)
    Prismatic Ray
    Burning Blood
    Harmonic Shield
    Wall of Sound
    Cyclonic Blast (edited in; I forgot that one off the top of my head)
    This makes me positively giddy. Is there a new thread on this in the bard forums?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SealedInSong View Post

    Mystics still choose a single philosophy?

    I'm confused. The latter makes more sense to me but Eladrin said yes to the former?
    Pretty sure it still means you only choose one philosophy, and then at the end light grants dark, and dark grants light, so that you can do all finishers, but not all dark/light moves.

    You only get that one opposite style move.

  14. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by SealedInSong View Post
    I'm confused. The latter makes more sense to me but Eladrin said yes to the former?
    From what I'm reading here, Monks will still choose a single philosophy, and gain access to the same philosophy Light or Dark strike i.e fists of Light or Fists of Darkness.

    What Henshin Mystic is possibly offering is the ability of a Light path Monk to perform a Dark strike, or vice versa.

    So a Light monk Could do both the Light-Light-Light finisher, aka Healing Ki, but using three of the granted Dark Strikes to perform the Dark-Dark-Dark finisher, aka Touch of Despair.

    It also means a Light path Henshin Mystic could perform the Fire-Dark-Fire finisher, aka Karmic Strike.

    And as a further possibility, there are more combinations that have no written finisher yet:

    Elemental-Light-Dark
    Light-Dark-Light
    Dark-Light-Dark

    and any number of other combinations they care to code up into new finishers.
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  15. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by SealedInSong View Post
    This makes me positively giddy. Is there a new thread on this in the bard forums?
    No new thread on it in the bard forums. It was information that appeared in the trees on Lamma accidentally and I've been told there has already been a lot of changes to those trees so it's dated information. The ability to add spells is still the important and intriguing part.

  16. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by SealedInSong View Post
    Mystics get both philosophies?
    You need to move my quote down to the #2 senario.

    If you check out those Mystic special attacks again you will see that they still have one path. But, they can do an attack that counts as an attack from the other path.

    Every Light Casts a Shadow requires Harminous balance (Light) but can set the monk up to deliver a dark path finisher.

    Shadows Cannot Exist Without Light requires Inevitable Dominion (Dark) but can set the monk up to deliver a light path finisher.

    So, for example, it’s possible for monk to have both Touch of Death and Grasp of the Earth dragon.
    Last edited by QuantumFX; 10-18-2012 at 04:52 PM.
    Things that if Turbine went all EXTREME PREJUDICE™ on, would actually make the game fun again.:
    • Giving us the racial PrE’s we were promised, before rolling out DDOStore™ Enhancement Trees.
    • One loot system to rule them all. (Including Cannith Crafting, and Named Loot.)
    • Fixing the Cannith Challenges so that they can be 6 starred without incredible luck or store bought items.
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  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvirini View Post
    Moving exisiting enchantments to be feats makes me sad. The nice part with enchantments is that they are easy to re-spec and a fairly plentiful resource. Feats are both harder to swap and and way shorter in supply.
    That really depends on if it's a feat that's granted to monks (granted to L6 monk, say, but you can take it earlier if you're only splashing). If that's the case, it actually improves things because you only need 1-2 levels of monk and not 6 like currently. And, for that matter, you can take it earlier and then swap out if you're going for 6+.
    Last edited by LrdSlvrhnd; 10-18-2012 at 05:05 PM.
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  18. #98
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Default Okay cool

    That was my original and intuitive understanding of the mechanic but I think the question posed (and Eladrin's answer) made me double-take. Thanks guys.
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  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by LrdSlvrhnd View Post
    That really depends on if it's a feat that's granted to monks (granted to L6 monk, say, but you can take it earlier if you're only splashing). If that's the case, it actually improves things because you only need 1-2 levels of monk and not 6 like currently. And, for that matter, you can take it earlier and then swap out if you're going for 6+.
    With the new enhancement system you'd probably be able to take that anyway with only a few levels of monk.

    Yes, it opens up some options, but it also contributes to the already excessive feat tax on archery.
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  20. #100
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    I was thinking... maybe Henshin Mystic should be able to use wisdom for hit/damage with staffs... would that be OP? there's already 3 PREs that we know of that use DEX and one of them also uses staffs... mix it up..
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