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  1. #21
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    Looks like a very good ED for druids. I've always been very disappointed in what druids got in their primary ED circle. I felt neither shiradi nor fury fits us and felt druid was the red-headed step child in the initial ED pass. This new ED makes up for that. Two thumbs up.
    Last edited by ddonoobgamer; 10-08-2012 at 09:47 AM.

  2. #22
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
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    Despite the words twf many times in the destiny ability descriptions this is a very poor destiny for twf builds...and as usual absolutely horrible for ranged.
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  3. #23
    The Hatchery Expalphalog's Avatar
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    From my wolfy perspective:

    Strength of Spirit: Seems needlessly complicated to me. Do any other destinies have counters this complex?

    Magic of Nature: Ok.

    Primal Travel: Whoop-dee-f***. I wouldn't even waste a SKILL point on this, much less a Spirit point. I actually have plenty of blank spots left on my hotbars and this still won't make it on one.

    Mighty Among Spirits: Ok

    Eternal Return: Really? Rangers and Druids both have more efficient healing spells than this. There is literally no scenario I can imagine where this would be useful.

    Walk with the Spirits: Invisibility for 100 SP? Oh boy!

    Ephemeral Evolution: Useful, but not overwhelming.

    Rejuvination Cocoon: I'm not Healer focused, so I have no gauge to judge this one.

    Insidious Spores: Seems pretty underwhelming. What's the Duration on this? Or is it one-and-done?

    Friends of Nature: I'm curious to know more about this.

    Seeking Balance: I might twist this on my Tempest.

    Supple as Spring: Doesn't really seem all that good to me, but I may be wrong.

    Contagious Spores: Depends again on the Duration of Insidious Spores.

    Natural Shielding: Nice. Not sure I'd waste an ED slot on it, but nice nonetheless.

    Balanced Attacks: Attack bonus? Really? Hasn't everyone figured out how worthless this is yet? Does any end-game build miss on anything other than a 1?

    Summer Smoke: Usefulness depends on the Duration.

    Tsunami: That save is way too low. My Snow Slide's DC is naturally 9 higher than this and it rarely works. Maybe this will be good for caster builds who can afford to focus more on their DC, but that's not who this Destiny is supposedly designed for.

    The Oncoming Storm: Meh. If the following tiers are additional +1's then I could not be less interested.12

    Paired Parry / Symetric Strikes: Now this, I like.

    Autumn Harvest: Would be a good Passive. If it's a stance (which stacks with ALL others) then I'll give it a shot.

    Stormrage: Up to one enemy per second? As in "no more than 1, but it's obviously less if you don't hit someone once a second" or as in "there's a chance that this could possibly maybe happen, but no more than once per second?"

    Summon Dryad Elder: Is this finally going to give me a reason to summon something other than an Air Elemental?

    Chill of Winter: This is more like it.

    Spirit Boon: Duration?

    Symetric Strikes / Natural Evasion: Yes please.

    Avatar of Nature: Meh.


    Overall: Seems significantly less "Epic" than most other Destinies.
    Last edited by Expalphalog; 10-08-2012 at 02:25 PM. Reason: Said "DR" - meant "DC"
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon131313 View Post
    Just remember this is still early and we should have time to give feedback for them to ignore.
    fify

  5. #25
    Community Member Diyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expalphalog View Post
    Tsunami: That save is way too low. My Snow Slide's DR is naturally 9 higher than this and it rarely works. Maybe this will be good for caster builds who can afford to focus more on their DR, but that's not who this Destiny is supposedly designed for.
    ...you must have misread something. Tsunami is DC 10 + Wisdom modifier + Character level. Snowslide is 19+ WIS mod.

    End wise, that makes it 35+wis mod for tsunami, versus 19+wis mod for snow slide. So snowslide isn't 9 higher DC, it's 16 lower.
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  6. #26
    Developer Vargouille's Avatar
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    We love play testing feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon131313 View Post
    Spirit of Strength - When toggled, charges decay, but I cannot build up new charges. Is this intended?
    No. Sounds like a bug.

    You should currently be able to generate Spirit while using any ability that generates spirit. There is some chance we would change this for a couple abilities for balance but as of yet that doesn't seem necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by LrdSlvrhnd View Post
    I don't like all the "to nearby allies" wording, keeps making me afraid it'll be like those bard songs that can't affect the bard...
    You are allied with yourself. These all affect the Primal Avatar.

    - Oncoming Storm: Same as Natural Shielding. Figure 3% chance at rank 3, not really all that wonderful.
    This provides unique effects at each rank.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diyon View Post
    I wouldn't expect this to be THE TWF destiny btw, I just suspect it will have some support for it, but once again, need to see all of what we have here.
    This is intended to be one of many options for two weapon fighters, not necessary overtly better than the other destinies already strong for TWF.

    Quote Originally Posted by Expalphalog View Post
    Stormrage: Up to one enemy per second? As in "no more than 1, but it's obviously less if you don't hit someone once a second" or as in "there's a chance that this could possibly maybe happen, but no more than once per second?"
    There are no chances involved.

    Spirit Boon: Duration?
    Toggle.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voldomar View Post
    Even twf rangers dabble in ranged combat. So, why ranged attacks cannot build spirits?
    I know this is not "the" ranger destiny but since melee is covered, caster level is covered, it's odd that the only aspect left out is ranged combat.
    Yeah I agree with this. It's afterall in the same ED circle as the ranger's. Plus it's not like ranged combat are OP compared to casters, so letting caster in on this and not ranged combat does seem odd. Casters even gets included in the shiradi destiny. Some luv for ranged combat pls.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    This is intended to be one of many options for two weapon fighters, not necessary overtly better than the other destinies already strong for TWF.
    But it's way worse for TWF.

    I mean, Doublestrike was originally created (in Rogue Opportunist) specifically to be less beneficial to TWF characters. Doublestrike gives less benefit to TWF people than to other melee characters, and even less to TWF Rangers than to other TWFs.

    It seems logical to give the Symmetric Strike feature a TWF-specific bonus to make up for that.

  9. #29
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    But it's way worse for TWF.

    I mean, Doublestrike was originally created (in Rogue Opportunist) specifically to be less beneficial to TWF characters. Doublestrike gives less benefit to TWF people than to other melee characters, and even less to TWF Rangers than to other TWFs.

    It seems logical to give the Symmetric Strike feature a TWF-specific bonus to make up for that.
    Nice catch. This destiny reminds me of the fatesinger destiny, but weaker.
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  10. #30
    The Hatchery psteen1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expalphalog View Post
    Walk with the Spirits: Invisibility for 100 SP? Oh boy!
    I am also wondering... why... what... how would this work to justify the cost and place as a tier 5 power.

    Perhaps it is improved invisibility? You know, invisibility is not lost upon attacking? Everyone's hoping that it makes it into DDO someday.

  11. #31
    Community Member Diyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psteen1 View Post
    I am also wondering... why... what... how would this work to justify the cost and place as a tier 5 power.

    Perhaps it is improved invisibility? You know, invisibility is not lost upon attacking? Everyone's hoping that it makes it into DDO someday.
    Well it has on a few abilities. This may be one. Also the "ethereal" there seems to indicate possibly incorporeal miss chance, which if also persists through attacking, would be awesome.
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  12. #32
    Community Member bbqzor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    You are allied with yourself. These all affect the Primal Avatar.
    While perhaps technically correct from a game mechanic standpoint, it is grammatically incorrect. They should all be changed to say "You and your allies..." instead of just 'your allies', 'nearby allies', or 'target allies'; all of which grammatically suggest they don't work on yourself. Failing to do so will only cause confusion now (as it is here), and mis-communication later (as it did with some of the bard abilities).

    This equally applies to existing abilities which misuse the word... but even if you don't go and correct all the old ones at least fix the new ones. I hope eventually they are all fixed as quality of life issues, but even if they aren't there's no reason to persist in using a poor format.

    As for feedback, the base setup looks okay here. I will wait to see some of the additional tiers before making any specific suggestions (for example, Rejuvination Cocoon is horrible at tier 1, and tier 2 may make it heal for more, or it may just add temp hp, and which exactly it does dramatically effects how useful it is). So, while it obviously needs refining, it seems to be starting in a good place.

  13. #33
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Default Very excited about this

    A lot of the abilities look flavorful and fun...but as usual, having to micromanage a bunch of charges that rapidly decay will probably make me and others switch to a destiny that doesn't feel like so much of a chore.

    I haven't met a single person in-game that has had anything positive to say about mechanics such as Blood and Radiance, and these spirit charges seem even worse.
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by SealedInSong View Post
    A lot of the abilities look flavorful and fun...but as usual, having to micromanage a bunch of charges that rapidly decay will probably make me and others switch to a destiny that doesn't feel like so much of a chore.
    Most Spirit-using stances you can simply turn on and forget about, if you want. Such as +30 spellpower or +2 to all mental or physical ability scores. When you run out of Spirit you cease getting the benefit, but it comes back as soon as you gain some Spirit. This is intentionally different from many stances in order to reduce feelings of managing Spirit being a 'chore'.

  15. #35
    The Hatchery Nibor's Avatar
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    I can't get to level this destiny up, so I can only base this off of what I see in the destiny screen. This gets pretty long, sorry.

    For "summoner" style, first read, I like it, it's interesting. Lots of "your pets get" and "your allies get", good work. For caster/melee hybrids - the casting side of things seems to get a nice bonus.

    For TWF, this is complete garbage. TWF bonuses should interact well with TWF - things like "on hit" effects, to take advantage of the extra attacks. Looking at what's on the list, here's how I saw it:

    Spirit generation - you're limited to 1 per 3 seconds, so that's not interesting. It's really obviously pointing toward hybrid spellcasting/melee - druid, ranger, bard? (songs won't trigger it though), paladin perhaps.
    Walk with spirits is really expensive on the blue bar. It's perhaps nice with backstabbing? But backstabbing is going to be much better served by taking shadowdancer, it's not even close.

    Tier 1 abilities: Maybe "Friends of Nature" (unknown) interacts well? Seems like it's more going to be useful for the "summoning druid".

    Tier 2 abilities: Seeking Balance doesn't actually interact, it just has TWF as a pre-req.

    Tier 3 abilities: Finally we have the first abilities that actually DO something for being TWF. Balanced attack if all it grants is +attack, is horribly weak. Adding +2 Primal damage there as well would be nice. Summer Smoke, *if* it affects self, would be good. But "nearby allies" wording would normally mean "not self" - if that's intended, make it say "You and nearby allies" in all cases, please.

    Tier 4 abilities: Symmetric Strikes - 2% doublestrike is a little meh but it's something. +5 AC is probably horrible but the option is fine. Autumn Harvest - THAT is a good TWF ability. I'd like to see what the rest of the tiers give. It's a shame you have to get to Tier 4 before you feel like you're getting something for a TWF effect. It's not good enough for a T4 twist slot, that's for sure. Stormrage isn't TWF based, hitting 1 enemy each second means your attack mode doesn't matter. You'd be happier spamming cleaves in a crowd with that active.

    Tier 5 abilities: Nope, nothing feels TWF. Spirit Boon is a melee boost, but a pretty low one - compare to Primal Scream of Fury. It is "Primal" instead of "Morale" (Primal Scream is morale, right?).

    Tier 6: Symmetric Strikes - that's a worthy TWF T6 ability. Avatar of Nature isn't TWF specific, but with a destiny like this that has a lot of focuses, you don't need all the top tier abilities with a dedicated TWF feel, and it's still *good* for a TWF.

    So - the bottom is weak, very weak, and the top is just about right. I'd love to try out getting +1 crit multiplier on my TWF, but the support at the bottom isn't good enough. And reading it, there's nothing that makes me say "Oh hey yeah this is nice" but instead I say "Really I'm supposed to want to make my TWF take this?" It needs to pass the initial eyeball test.

    I'd like to see Seeking Balance give something more offensive oriented, or some sort of "on hit" type of ability in the first 2 tiers. I don't know how well Spores plays yet, but if that needs tweaking, perhaps converting it to infecting your weapon with spores for a few seconds, which then infects those you strike? Summer Smoke should affect you as well as allies, and balanced attacks should add...something. Even +1 primal damage per tier. Unless the higher tiers already do something "new".

    Remember that players can't see the "higher tiers" until they are actually leveling that destiny, so when the 2nd and 3rd tiers of an ability aren't just obvious incremental upgrades, it's hard for players to see it coming. Which means things in the 2nd and 3rd tiers of an ability don't contribute to the "eyeball test" of when a player first reads it.

    Overall, I'm excited for my druid to hit epic and pick up this destiny, because I was wanting to play it more summoner-style anyway. My TWF isn't touching this, except maybe to pick up the healing cocoon if it targets self - but that's got to compete with healing springs, and I doubt it wins.
    Last edited by Nibor; 10-08-2012 at 12:52 PM. Reason: didn't mean to trigger the filter

  16. #36
    Community Member oberon131313's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Most Spirit-using stances you can simply turn on and forget about, if you want. Such as +30 spellpower or +2 to all mental or physical ability scores. When you run out of Spirit you cease getting the benefit, but it comes back as soon as you gain some Spirit. This is intentionally different from many stances in order to reduce feelings of managing Spirit being a 'chore'.
    If the intent is "on and forget" then I can confirm that the first autogrant is broken. I would build up the 30 spirits within 4-5 enemies, toggle it on while fighting the rest and be out of spirit within ~2 minutes, while still actively engaged in melee and spell casting and taking hits.
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by LrdSlvrhnd View Post
    - Eternal Return: Ugh. Might as well spam CMW or CSW, almost. Edited 'cause my stupidity was pointed out, feel free to see below for the original quote...
    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    An ability that costs spellpoints is unlikely to refill a blue bar.

    Eternal Return provides hp at an exorbitant cost in sp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis View Post
    Yeah, that's pretty terrible.
    3 hp per 1 sp.
    600 HP would cost you 200 sp.
    A heal that can heal for that much doesn't even cost half of that.
    I have to agree that Eternal Return is a horrible Autogrant.

    However, if it was a twistable, it would actually be a decent ability. For example, I have a pure Barbarian running around with 200 SP that he can't use. This would be a decent twistable for him.

    However, as it stands, it's not good at all.

  18. #38
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Nearby allies gain +1% Primal Bonus to Dodge if they have been damaged im combat in the past six seconds.
    This sure looks like something that will take up quite a few CPU cycles. Is that wise?

    Or maybe it only checks every 6 seconds.
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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    However, if it was a twistable, it would actually be a decent ability. For example, I have a pure Barbarian running around with 200 SP that he can't use. This would be a decent twistable for him.
    If the Barb did twist that, it wouldn't do anything because he has 0 Spirit points without also getting Strength Of Spirit.

  20. #40
    Community Member Diyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    This sure looks like something that will take up quite a few CPU cycles. Is that wise?

    Or maybe it only checks every 6 seconds.
    Can't be much worse than a druid's vengeful hunter. As long as internally its something like 6 second buff that refreshes upon getting hit.
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