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  1. #21
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePrisoner View Post
    I would argue that the Rusted Blades capped destiny farm is the easy part. Grindy, yes, but relatively easy considering the xp/minute.

    As for the running every epic quest once idea, I would be curious to see what the xp of each epic quest done once adds up to. It's cool that you did all that math in your head before you posted, but could you share the numbers?

    As for the slayer areas, I did a complete tour of the Underdark my first time through and have no desire to repeat it. I found the sprawl of it unappealing. Frankly, the same goes for King's Forest. Slayers and explorers are, to me, grind, although I don't mind them much in the Demonweb.
    I don't have the math, but the last guy I just ran up to 25, I ran the 1st Eveningstar chain twice, the 2nd Eveningstar chain twice, the 3rd Eveningstar chain once.

    I got all the explorers and whatever slayers you get while getting the explorers for Kings Forests, Drow City, and Demonweb (I didn't do much exploring in the Underdark).

    I also did all the Eveningstar epic challenges one time each... That's worth 300k or so.

    I did some of the Cannith epic challenges one time each... Another 200k-300k.

    I ran the VON series 1-4 on epic twice (once hard, once normal). I ran the House P epics once on hard. I did eChrono twice. Oh, and I ran the U15 quests on epic normal once.

    I didn't touch the Sentinals epics, the Red Fens epics, or the Sands epics, or VON 5-6, or the new raid.

    Soon enough we'll have Gianthold epics to add to the list.

    There's a ton of exp to get you from 20-25.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    Extremely harsh, but totally deserved criticisms. It's hard to disagree about how the issue has been handled.
    indeed!

  3. #23
    Community Member Dolphious's Avatar
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    Yeah, big thumbs down to the devs for saying they were going to (at least partially) un-nerf challenge xp, and then just not doing it with not further comment. That's pretty lame.

    That along with the "it's not a bug, it's a feature!!" line we keep hearing, and the continued prioritization of killing "bug" that might help players, is creating a distinctly bitter taste in my mouth.
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  4. #24
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePrisoner View Post
    Correct, the purpose of attaining the actual level 25 (or a capped 24) is to be able to farm very high xp/minute quests without penalty and really start clicking away at the destinies and twists.
    Heh, if that's fun for you...

    I don't play video games to be bored out of my mind...

    Maxed out Destiny with three Tier I twists (maybe one of those a Tier II) is fairly easy to get to with minimal grind... 2/1/1 or 3/1 are pretty solid twists.

    Grinding out another 10 million exp running the same quest 500 times for 4/1/1 twists is purely optional, and not worth it in my mind...

    (I agree Sense Weakness is very strong, so I understand why people do it, but I would just end up quitting the game if I grinded like that)
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  5. #25
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dolphious View Post
    Yeah, big thumbs down to the devs for saying they were going to (at least partially) un-nerf challenge xp, and then just not doing it with not further comment. That's pretty lame.
    I agree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  6. #26
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    You do realize that if any devs even bother taking note of this post, they'll just nerf the exp for the quests that people are farming for destiny exp, rather than fixing the real problem. No doubt the "easy change challenge exp switch" is only easy to flip one way (twice hehehe). lol ;-)

    I actually think that nerfing the challenge exp was a clever but sneaky marketing ploy. The challenge pack was the most expensive expansion which many people brought due to the good exp. Now that most people have the pack few will be buying it anymore. However with the massive amount of exp needed for destiny farming the side effect would have been players accumulating lots of materials if farming challenges for exp was still worth while, which they would turn into epic tokens and then true hearts of wood. As they no longer expect to sell many of the challenge pack they really don't want people getting free hearts of wood, which will always be a good seller......

  7. #27
    Brand / Commerce Manager Tolero's Avatar
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    Going to need folks to follow the forum guidelines regarding name calling and personal attacks please, and further such behavior will get a thread closure/Cube visit.

    To answer the OP question, yes we are still planning on upward-adjusting the XP for Challenges, though it's going to require a new formula. In the current form, trying to aim for the middle using the XP adjuster tool still results in some challenges being way too low, or some being way too high. The formula pass is still slated to happen before the end of this year (aiming for 16 but there is a possibility that it may slip into a subsequent patch).

  8. #28
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    Going to need folks to follow the forum guidelines regarding name calling and personal attacks please, and further such behavior will get a thread closure/Cube visit.

    To answer the OP question, yes we are still planning on upward-adjusting the XP for Challenges, though it's going to require a new formula. In the current form, trying to aim for the middle using the XP adjuster tool still results in some challenges being way too low, or some being way too high. The formula pass is still slated to happen before the end of this year (aiming for 16 but there is a possibility that it may slip into a subsequent patch).
    So you can't manually adjust the outliers of "too little" and "too much"? And have to rely on a "formula"?

    That's kind of sad.

    But thanks for at least giving an update.

  9. #29
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    Going to need folks to follow the forum guidelines regarding name calling and personal attacks please, and further such behavior will get a thread closure/Cube visit.

    To answer the OP question, yes we are still planning on upward-adjusting the XP for Challenges, though it's going to require a new formula. In the current form, trying to aim for the middle using the XP adjuster tool still results in some challenges being way too low, or some being way too high. The formula pass is still slated to happen before the end of this year (aiming for 16 but there is a possibility that it may slip into a subsequent patch).
    So have a few give too much in the mean time tell you can drop a couple in U16 to balance them out.

    It's the least you can do considering how incredibly poor xp they have been for so long. I have a strong feeling even your definition of "way too high" is still worse then the majority of easy xp/min epic quests in the game anyways. So even by grandting that amount of xp, youd still be slowing a players epic destiny farm down versus grinding the same old quest over and over. Youd just be giving them more options, which is great.

  10. #30
    Community Member TPICKRELL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    Going to need folks to follow the forum guidelines regarding name calling and personal attacks please, and further such behavior will get a thread closure/Cube visit.

    To answer the OP question, yes we are still planning on upward-adjusting the XP for Challenges, though it's going to require a new formula. In the current form, trying to aim for the middle using the XP adjuster tool still results in some challenges being way too low, or some being way too high. The formula pass is still slated to happen before the end of this year (aiming for 16 but there is a possibility that it may slip into a subsequent patch).
    Thanks for the reply, at least we know now that this is not promised then forgotten.

    From a player perspective, it would be much better to have some quests too high while you sort out the new forumula rather than the current state of across the board being so low that the xp is irrelelvant.

    You would garner a lot of good will if you shifted them up to as reasonable a number as you can with the warning that they will be adjusted when you can get the new formula implemented.

  11. #31
    Community Member Mastikator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by me
    Many challenges are virtually impossible to solo, others only manageable with hirelings, yet I've only seen a single non-epic LFM group, and that was before the xp nerf. (not because of healing, but because you need to be in two or more places at the same time)
    Quote Originally Posted by ddo.rsmo.pt View Post
    You have to realize that this is a MMO, and soloing is supposed to be hard. This was a known fact as they introduced challenges; you can complete them solo, but some are harder, and to get all stars, you usually need more people.
    But the bolded parts together and you get "you're not supposed to play the challenges", that's a bad equation and anyone who decided on it should be ashamed.

    I'm not talking about getting all the stars, I'm talking about a above 50% competion rate for multi-TRd characters played by players who've memorized the challenge. And that includes characters that can't DDoor.
    That which does not kill you gives you experience points.

    (Fighter->Fighter->Fighter->Monk->Monk->Barbarian->Paladin->Ranger)

  12. #32
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    Going to need folks to follow the forum guidelines regarding name calling and personal attacks please, and further such behavior will get a thread closure/Cube visit.

    To answer the OP question, yes we are still planning on upward-adjusting the XP for Challenges, though it's going to require a new formula. In the current form, trying to aim for the middle using the XP adjuster tool still results in some challenges being way too low, or some being way too high. The formula pass is still slated to happen before the end of this year (aiming for 16 but there is a possibility that it may slip into a subsequent patch).
    You can nerf them and not worry about the poor formula, but you can not do the opposite.

    You ever wonder why players get angry with how Turbine development approaches issues this right here is a classic case.

    The high rewarding challenges were no better then the other top rewards per minute content you guys released with the xpack. You are not going to hurt things by providing another option to achieve the same or less rewards in the time it takes to modify the formula to calculate challenge xp. You would certainly help things by restoring the challenges to a state worth running though.
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  13. #33
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    I agree.... bump them to be a little high and fix them later, instead of leaving them low, and fixing them later.

    Plus, can't you manually change the base exp for the challenges?

    A cool formula would be nice, but there's not so many challenges that it would take too long to just change them one-by-one manually.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    Going to need folks to follow the forum guidelines regarding name calling and personal attacks please, and further such behavior will get a thread closure/Cube visit.

    To answer the OP question, yes we are still planning on upward-adjusting the XP for Challenges, though it's going to require a new formula. In the current form, trying to aim for the middle using the XP adjuster tool still results in some challenges being way too low, or some being way too high. The formula pass is still slated to happen before the end of this year (aiming for 16 but there is a possibility that it may slip into a subsequent patch).
    Whether people think this is fair or not (IMO it's not), this needed to be said a long time ago. Letting this fester without explanation for so long has been far more damaging than the act itself.
    Last edited by Katie_Seaglen; 10-02-2012 at 11:33 AM.

  15. #35

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    I responded to the exp nerfs to challenges the best way we can. I stopped running Cannith, and the new Challenge pack went unpurchased. It's the only content I haven't purchased, and I'm sitting on plenty of TP. If we don't run them and don't purchase them, they'll adjust the experience/price/loot to make it worth our while.

    Of course, it won't stop them from doing a bait and switch... release something that looks good, get your money, and then nerfing the heck out of it... but at least then you get a little time of it being worth your dollars.

  16. #36
    Community Member Schmoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    Yeah, none of the challenges are worth running unless you're gonna make an item or doing epic challenges for epic dungeon tokens. XPwise you may as well do wilderness areas.

    Some challenges aren't worth doing even if you need the ingredients, it's faster to do some other challenge and trade ingredients.

    Many challenges are virtually impossible to solo, others only manageable with hirelings, yet I've only seen a single non-epic LFM group, and that was before the xp nerf. (not because of healing, but because you need to be in two or more places at the same time)

    I want a refund.
    I just recently bought the Cannith challenge pack, and I've been trying to get groups together in guild and through the LFM panel. It is exceedingly frustrating and difficult to get a group for these. I've managed one full group in the last week, which promptly disbanded after one challenge. I am managing to complete (one or two-star) most of them, but I'm pretty much resigned to the fact that I'll never five or six-star the challenges and that it will be a long, lonely task.

    I don't know why Turbine is so content to let the content sit neglected after a flip of the switch. As others have said, adjust it back the other way and then hand-tune those giving out too much later on down the road. It will make customers a lot happier.
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  17. #37
    Community Member munificence's Avatar
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    No surprises.

    If something is broken in the players favor, nerf it to oblivion instantly.

    If it needs fixed to help players, well, maybe we can roll out a whole new formula some time in the next year or two.

  18. #38
    Community Member GrampaBill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    To answer the OP question, yes we are still planning on upward-adjusting the XP for Challenges, though it's going to require a new formula. In the current form, trying to aim for the middle using the XP adjuster tool still results in some challenges being way too low, or some being way too high. The formula pass is still slated to happen before the end of this year (aiming for 16 but there is a possibility that it may slip into a subsequent patch).
    Fine, but would it be too much that in the meantime you back out the second xp nerf? You still have that formula don't you? You just take it and reverse it - voila.
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    Quote Originally Posted by droipamine View Post
    I imagine we'll be looking at this very soon.

  19. #39
    The Hatchery Galeria's Avatar
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    Even if it is late and a poor answer, I'm glad to see some explanation.

    (And btw, remember Tolero is just the messenger. She can only pass along the information she is given by the devs. I do thank you for taking the time to respond with all sincerity.)

    Really, the communication has seriously fallen off again. I keep saying "Turbine is a business" but I'm starting to think it is someone's hobby, with no one really in charge who cares about the relationship with the players.

    Are things really going so well that Turbine can afford to ignore their customers? Are there so many new players getting ready to join that any responsibility to communicate with the existing playerbase can be brushed off so easily?

    I don't always like the answers, I don't always agree with the perceived priorities management places on specific changes... but I would still rather be given the information than not. Refusing to communicate with players on upcoming changes/fixes from the players is cowardly at best and arrogant at worst. (Not aimed at the messenger but at the people who ought to be coordinating the releases of information.) Such a huge opportunity to shine turned into a beating post.

    If you "don't have time" to communicate, hire more people. This is important.
    Last edited by Galeria; 10-02-2012 at 12:23 PM. Reason: Spelling
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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    ... though it's going to require a new formula. In the current form, trying to aim for the middle using the XP adjuster tool still results in some challenges being way too low, or some being way too high.
    Really?!? If you already know what too high and too low is, just set each challenge manually and only adjust based on level. There aren't that many challenges. Creating a formula for all challenges that you can't get to work is over engineering it.
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