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  1. #21
    The Hatchery psteen1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cocoax View Post
    The only problem is would turbine do it?
    i sure hope not.

  2. #22
    Community Member Lyria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TreknaQudane View Post
    I would gladly lose some power on my Sorc to trade it for some utility that giving them a proper Elemental Savant. Sorcs should definitely get the ability to turn into an elemental... the entire point of Elemental Savant PrC was the gradual change from a humanoid character to an elemental. In the process of that change the Savant achieved outright immunity to poisons, paralysis, sleep effects, immunity to crits and flanking (100% fort), immunity to stunning and a bonus to their element's DC.
    You'd have to give up a LOT of power (not just locking out opposite element spells) if tier-3 savant gave you full elemental immunities. I could see a +6 to saves against stuff, but +100% fort, immunity to stun, paralysis, etc? That would be overboard for a class that can nuke as hard as sorcs do. Of course, since you'd be an "elemental" at that point, I could see a lot of warforged sorcs being rather upset about it, since repair spells wouldn't work on them anymore...

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by TreknaQudane View Post
    Looking to Druid for inspiration for on the Sorcerer Elemental form is bound to fail as the forms druids have are Fail Incarnate

    Sorcs are strong.. but they're mostly strong because there's no point to having the versatility that Wizards have. No matter which class you choose, you end up casting the same spells. The sorc can cast more of them more often, so they win.

    I would gladly lose some power on my Sorc to trade it for some utility that giving them a proper Elemental Savant. Sorcs should definitely get the ability to turn into an elemental... the entire point of Elemental Savant PrC was the gradual change from a humanoid character to an elemental. In the process of that change the Savant achieved outright immunity to poisons, paralysis, sleep effects, immunity to crits and flanking (100% fort), immunity to stunning and a bonus to their element's DC.

    Of what they 'should' get... Savants only get +2 to saves against Poison, Paraylsis, and Sleep effects. They get no bonus to DCs, they get no bonus to fortification, and they don't get immunity to spells that only affect humanoids not monsters.

    I'd not be heart broken if the bonus to poisons, paralysis, and sleep effects scaled to at least +6 by the time you hit Tier 3. The bonus to fortification, resistance to stuns (not immunity,that would be pretty strong), and a bonus to DC could easily be attached to elemental form. To balance it out you could completely lock out their opposing element in that form instead of just penalizing it or assign it a SP cost to engage like Pale Master Shrouds.

    technically, the elemental savants only give +6 cl. so they're not the full prestige of the 3.5 elemental savants. they're close to about lvl 7 (thus no immunities to poison, paralysis, nor do they have elemental traits at that point). not to mention ddo prestiges are more of a namesake rather then the pnp prestiges for any of the classes.

    pnp savants get stacking energy resist (would be 20 at that level), +2 spell pen with energy type, +1 dc for energy type, plus all damaging spells are considered the type of their element rather then the actual element of the spell (thus melfs acid arrow would deal fire damage for a fire savant), thus reducing their versatility down quite abit since anything that did elemental damage would change to their element and make them useless against stuff immune to their element.

    ddo may not give those above, but you can reduce an enemies resistance by so much (not sure if that actually helps) can cast max/empowered spells at low sp costs, and have an ability that increase the damage of your element spells (awaken element) plus each savant gain a special ability depending on what element they have (earth: 10hp, +2 natural ac / Air: featherfall toggle, immunity to knockdown / fire: fire gaurd / water: waterbreathing) not to mention the SLA's for each teir, t3 SLA are rather nice.. would you really give all that up just for some immunities (which are changed to resistances)

  4. #24
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    Default Build choices

    You can build a sorc in many other ways than a pure DPSer. It is really not that difficult especially with past lives and gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by cocoax View Post
    Sorcerers dont have that much. A wizard has more cool things than a sorcerer. All a sorcerer has is a heck of a load of damage.
    RTFM on Khyber

  5. #25
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Default Ugh

    "If you want to ______, go play a ______."

    This is one of the most ridiculous arguments possible, and yet I see it on the forums all the time. Compare: "hey pre-emancipation black person, if you want to vote, go be a white person."

    The OP brings up a valid point that many of us have brought up before: an elemental savant intends to BECOME AN ELEMENTAL, and we didn't even need the druid code to implement this when savants came out.

    Pale Masters assume a form, defenders of Siberys/stalwart defenders use stances, etc--so I see no reason why savants shouldn't get the ability to purchase an enhancement (prerequisites being 18 sorc, savant III or something) to allow the to assume a form/stance that gives them some reasonable bonuses to things granted i PnP (mentioned by TreknaQudane).

    This would include but not be limited to:
    save bonus to poisons, paralysis, sleep effects, fortification

    Should they get immunity to these things? Everyone's first inclination is to say no as sorcerers are already quite powerful, and I am inclined to agree. For balance sake, make the fortification bump equivalent to what pale masters get. Make the save bonus to poison/paralysis/sleep inherent and stacking but not unbeatable.

    I personally would buy another expansion just to be able to turn into the air elemental graphic.

    To the naysayers that don't want to look more cool, then fine: don't purchase the capstone elemental form enhancement. When the enhancement pass comes, it could be as easy as saying, "spend 30 action points in savant tree element X, option to purchase elemental form for two action points."

    Done. More variety = a better game, period.
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  6. #26
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SealedInSong View Post
    "If you want to ______, go play a ______."

    This is one of the most ridiculous arguments possible, and yet I see it on the forums all the time. Compare: "hey pre-emancipation black person, if you want to vote, go be a white person."
    Could you be any more ridiculous than comparing a game with set archetypes to racism?

    DDO is a game where you *choose* your class and race. It couldn't be further from real-life racism where one group oppresses another and uses ascribed status as an excuse to do so.


    The OP brings up a valid point that many of us have brought up before: an elemental savant intends to BECOME AN ELEMENTAL, and we didn't even need the druid code to implement this when savants came out.
    I see savants as manipulating the energies of the elements, not trying to turn themselves into one. But you have a point here - some sorcs might follow down these paths.


    Pale Masters assume a form, defenders of Siberys/stalwart defenders use stances, etc--so I see no reason why savants shouldn't get the ability to purchase an enhancement (prerequisites being 18 sorc, savant III or something) to allow the to assume a form/stance that gives them some reasonable bonuses to things granted i PnP (mentioned by TreknaQudane).

    This would include but not be limited to:
    save bonus to poisons, paralysis, sleep effects, fortification

    Should they get immunity to these things? Everyone's first inclination is to say no as sorcerers are already quite powerful, and I am inclined to agree. For balance sake, make the fortification bump equivalent to what pale masters get. Make the save bonus to poison/paralysis/sleep inherent and stacking but not unbeatable.

    I personally would buy another expansion just to be able to turn into the air elemental graphic.

    To the naysayers that don't want to look more cool, then fine: don't purchase the capstone elemental form enhancement. When the enhancement pass comes, it could be as easy as saying, "spend 30 action points in savant tree element X, option to purchase elemental form for two action points."

    Done. More variety = a better game, period.
    Sorc savants gain elemental bonuses already.

    I'd be in favor of having different options along the elemental PrE's, or as you suggest, some kind of costly capstone achievement. Although with the new epic system, I think it would be more cool to write it into that as some kind of SD.

  7. #27
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Default This was from a few months back

    but I will still respond due to the enormity of misunderstanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Singular View Post
    Could you be any more ridiculous than comparing a game with set archetypes to racism?
    DDO is a game where you *choose* your class and race. It couldn't be further from real-life racism where one group oppresses another and uses ascribed status as an excuse to do so.
    Uh, if you read what I wrote at all, you can see my argument has nothing at all to do with racism. The analogy ("slave chooses to free") was chosen more for humor and to highlight how illogical the notion: ""If you want to ______, go play a ______" is.

    In this thread specifically referring to elemental savants, we have sorcerers who presumably want to become more like elementals, to which people responded: "if you want to turn into an elemental, play a druid."

    Underscore: my analogy of "slave chooses to be free":"sorcerer chooses to be elemental" =/= "sorcerer chooses to be druid" [FALSE STATEMENT, DOES NOT COMPUTE]

    So please; any reference to racism is 100% missing the actual point I made in the nine paragraph post that I made that be distilled in the sentence: "sorcerers should be able to become elementals and the mechanics already exist for it."

    Quote Originally Posted by Singular View Post
    Sorc savants gain elemental bonuses already.

    I'd be in favor of having different options along the elemental PrE's, or as you suggest, some kind of costly capstone achievement. Although with the new epic system, I think it would be more cool to write it into that as some kind of SD.
    Uh... yes, savants get elemental bonuses, which is again really not the point. I am glad you see the merit in a capstone option that allows savants to turn into their chosen elemental, as that was the greater point of my post: sorcerers should be able to make a choice (with a balanced cost) to turn into an elemental--that's the premise of a savant in PnP. It's like a pale master that only gets negative energy spell power but cannot assume undead form.

    Worse, druids get elemental forms but their spellcasting tradeoff is complete ****. So really, as my "slave chooses to be free" analogy extends, even "choosing" to be a sorcerer that changes to druid to shapeshift is actually choosing a rather inferior route.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyria View Post
    Of course, since you'd be an "elemental" at that point, I could see a lot of warforged sorcs being rather upset about it, since repair spells wouldn't work on them anymore...
    Good point. My subsequent post did mention the capstone elemental transformation as being an optional purchase, and hopefully a toggle (so even purchasing it gives one leeway to employ it when most advantageous only).
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  8. #28
    The Hatchery psteen1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SealedInSong View Post
    but I will still respond due to the enormity of misunderstanding.


    Uh, if you read what I wrote at all, you can see my argument has nothing at all to do with racism. The analogy ("slave chooses to free") was chosen more for humor and to highlight how illogical the notion: ""If you want to ______, go play a ______" is.
    Actually you are using a classically bad argument methodology here, which is called a straw man. Meaning that you set up a ridiculous concept which you then can easily disprove and thus make your point.

    An analogy has to be relevant in order for it to strengthen your argument. Your analogy is completely unrelated.

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    What a dumb thing to necro a thread over. Ah well. . .
    Quote Originally Posted by SealedInSong View Post
    Uh, if you read what I wrote at all, you can see my argument has nothing at all to do with racism. The analogy
    I read what you wrote. Your argument was ****, your analogy was ****, and it was the stupidest thing I've read today.

  10. #30
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Default Those are fine reactions

    I merely wanted to clear up the notion that I am not relating a lack of an elemental form to "racism in DDO." I do not find that a stupid thing to clear up.

    If you found my argument not well-supported or my ideas stupid, I find those valid feelings. As long as I'm not cast as some kind of race-paranoia monger.
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  11. #31
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Default Not a straw man

    Quote Originally Posted by psteen1 View Post
    Actually you are using a classically bad argument methodology here, which is called a straw man. Meaning that you set up a ridiculous concept which you then can easily disprove and thus make your point.

    An analogy has to be relevant in order for it to strengthen your argument. Your analogy is completely unrelated.
    There's a professor of philosophy in my family and I have many friends who are philosophers; it's rather easy with a cursory Google search or elementary knowledge of the term to see that I was attacking the straw man of the advice "go be a druid if you want to shapeshift," and my analogy was not itself a straw man.

    This fallacy occurs when, in attempting to refute another person's argument, you address only a weak or distorted version of it. Straw person is the misrepresentation of an opponent's position or a competitor's product to tout one's own argument or product as superior. This fallacy occurs when the weakest version of an argument is attacked while stronger ones are ignored.

    Original argument: "If a sorcerer wants to shapeshift, be a druid instead."
    My counterargument analogy: "This argument is akin to saying that if a slave wanted to be free, they should choose to not be a slave."
    Less prone to being mistaken for a racial argument analogy: "An apple cannot choose to be an orange."

    I'm not seeing how that analogy is unrelated, nor do I see how it distorts the original argument in an attempt to strengthen my position against it.

    Here's another straw man analysis in a structural breakdown.

    Person 1 has position X.
    "Savants that want to shapeshift should choose to no longer be a savant."

    Person 2 disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially similar position Y.
    "A slave should choose to be free" is similar to position X insofar as position X is asking the slave/sorcerer to be something it cannot choose to be even if it wanted to. This is not a superficially similar position; to me, it seems like the precise same situation.

    Person 2 attacks position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed.
    There was no need for me to even make my analogy. Position X was already rather visibly flawed.

    @Danzig, feel free to troll and ignore the actual arguments at hand. Shrug.
    @psteen, I appreciate your willingness to actually read what I read, but I disagree with your assessment. Perhaps you can weigh in on the original argument "sorcerers should be druids."

    I still think the OP of this thread deserves consideration. I'm a proponent of savants getting their elemental form, clearly.
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  12. #32
    The Hatchery psteen1's Avatar
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    Here are some relevant analogies that I would not consider strawmen, but in the very same class as the original question.

    Why shouldn't fighters get bonuses for raging like a barbarian? They probably get mad.

    Why don't mechanic rogues get all the same goodies as an artificier? They both can use crossbows.

    Why can't paladins use an aura heal? They cast divine spells.


    In order for this game to remain interesting there needs to be some things that makes each class special, otherwise there is no point to it. The answer to all the questions above is that they don't get those things because they have other bonuses instead. Druids don't have much-- animals form can't compete end game and the caster prestige class is broken. The elemental forms provide pretty weak bonuses and the penalty is actually worse than the bonus. At least elemental forms are unique to druids.

    No one will argue that sorcerers don't get something pretty special already.

    Anyway, all of this is moot. It will never happen.

  13. #33
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psteen1 View Post
    Anyway, all of this is moot. It will never happen.
    And yet we have epic GH instead of a new module. Maybe you should rethink your statement. Or contribute to the conversation instead of detracting.

    To the OP, I could see savants becoming an elemental. Heck, mine already has fire particles coming from his skin. That being said, I couldn't tell you if it should be a cosmetic look, an actual elemental like Druids, or a hybrid. Regardless, I have such a large wish list and this doesn't crack the top 10. Not saying it isn't important, just don't expect me to campaign for you.

  14. #34
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Default Diversity =/= deprivation

    Quote Originally Posted by psteen1 View Post
    In order for this game to remain interesting there needs to be some things that makes each class special, otherwise there is no point to it. The answer to all the questions above is that they don't get those things because they have other bonuses instead.
    Agreed, but I don't think that has to come at the cost of core abilities. For instance, I still strongly think that other divine classes should get the spell selection they deserve, i.e. getting earthquake and storm of vengeance. These are core spells for clerics and favored souls, and I don't care if that takes the shine off druids. For that matter, give druids cometfall and more wild shapes and what have you.

    Quote Originally Posted by psteen1 View Post
    Druids don't have much-- animals form can't compete end game and the caster prestige class is broken. The elemental forms provide pretty weak bonuses and the penalty is actually worse than the bonus. At least elemental forms are unique to druids.
    Again, I think every class should get their due. I agree that druids didn't get all they should have, but that doesn't mean that other classes should suffer the same fate just because druids are suffering. If anything, that promotes the idea that everyone should get what their class is intended to get.

    Paladins: mounts, better spell selection
    Druids: better spell selection, more shapeshifting forms!
    Savants: the entire point of their existence--becoming an elemental
    Bards: anything at all
    etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by psteen1 View Post
    No one will argue that sorcerers don't get something pretty special already.
    I would--favored souls get sorcerer spell pools, and wizards get a better spell selection and higher DCs. I think the sorcerer class is top notch as is, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't get their core abilities from their prestige.

    And I do not think they have anything special in particular... an evoker wizard in Shiradi nukes even more efficiently than a sorcerer, necromancy wizards and evoker favored souls (and sometimes even clerics) and grandmaster monks instakill more efficiently. Pale Masters and Archmagi have slightly weaker DPS SLAs (unless of course counting evocation Shiradi again).

    In fact, the singular thing I can think of that sorcerers get that absolutely no other class can replicate is Air Dance for air savants, because it doesn't have the craptacular featherfall attached to it the way Leap of Faith does.

    Quote Originally Posted by psteen1 View Post
    Anyway, all of this is moot. It will never happen.
    Not really the attitude that I'd hope for concerning the upcoming enhancement pass, but at least you didn't call me a racism-monger or simply curse at me the way Danzig did. +1 for that! :]
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  15. #35
    The Hatchery psteen1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbyssalMage View Post
    And yet we have epic GH instead of a new module. Maybe you should rethink your statement. Or contribute to the conversation instead of detracting.
    pretty sure my post in it's entirety was contributing, thank you very much. I just disagree with the premise of the OP.

  16. #36
    The Hatchery psteen1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SealedInSong View Post
    Agreed, but I don't think that has to come at the cost of core abilities. For instance, I still strongly think that other divine classes should get the spell selection they deserve, i.e. getting earthquake and storm of vengeance. These are core spells for clerics and favored souls, and I don't care if that takes the shine off druids. For that matter, give druids cometfall and more wild shapes and what have you.

    Good argument and +1 for being convincing.



    Quote Originally Posted by SealedInSong View Post
    I would--favored souls get sorcerer spell pools, and wizards get a better spell selection and higher DCs. I think the sorcerer class is top notch as is, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't get their core abilities from their prestige.

    And I do not think they have anything special in particular... an evoker wizard in Shiradi nukes even more efficiently than a sorcerer, necromancy wizards and evoker favored souls (and sometimes even clerics) and grandmaster monks instakill more efficiently. Pale Masters and Archmagi have slightly weaker DPS SLAs (unless of course counting evocation Shiradi again).
    You are forgetting something very important, which is the casting speed of sorcs is one of their major abilities. They cast a lot faster than other classes.



    Quote Originally Posted by SealedInSong View Post
    Not really the attitude that I'd hope for concerning the upcoming enhancement pass, but at least you didn't call me a racism-monger or simply curse at me the way Danzig did. +1 for that! :]
    Right, the enhancement pass. There seems to be a chance this could happen for sorcs, but it just seems really really unlikely.

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    Hmm. Well I think my Paladin should be able to shift into god form. After all, becoming more like a god is what the class is all about.

  18. #38
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Default True

    Quote Originally Posted by psteen1 View Post
    You are forgetting something very important, which is the casting speed of sorcs is one of their major abilities. They cast a lot faster than other classes.
    Good point--that is one of the things that I like most about them and I didn't even remember.
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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singular View Post
    I see savants as manipulating the energies of the elements, not trying to turn themselves into one. But you have a point here - some sorcs might follow down these paths.
    Check the books An elemental savant upon reaching level 10 completely turns their class into that of an elemental. Its pretty much a large point of the class.

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    I seem to remember the original splatbook Savant for the tabletop game made you count as an elemental in the end, and the bonuses really wouldn't be all that outrageous - the PrE already gives save bonuses against stuff that matches elemental immunities, and many sorcs are warforged anyway and therefore already have most of that protection.

    I think they did a fine job on the savants already, though... the visual elemental effects give the flavour and the benefits are healthy as they are.

    Druids getting elemental forms is classic D&D and it's kind of nice that it's specific to them. I think the best gameplay bang for the buck involving expanding elemental shapeshifting would actually be to let druids have air and earth options, rather than anything else. Giving druids more mileage out of their lightning options in general would add another dimension of choice to the class, while sorcerer savants are already great characters in all four flavours.

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