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  1. #141
    Community Member Brennie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SealedInSong View Post
    (...)

    *Change Inspire Recklessness’ doublestrike buff to an untyped (or typed uniquely) bonus, and for the appearance of balance, reduce it to 2.5%. Bard’s happy, party members are happy.

    (...)
    Lots of good notes about bard weaknesses, and good suggestions. I wanna add my two cents here though:

    Inspire Recklesness is, in my opinion, the worst ability in the game. Bar none. THe nonstacking doublestrike is an issue, to be sure, but the worst part is the -fortification! Anyone who is not a melee, or who already has an equivalent source of doublstrike actually gets DEBUFFED by this song. Infact, for casters, archers, healers and the like, this song represents nothing but pain and potential griefing. And while there is a way to counter this (defensive stance), that method also dispels any rage-type effects too. So inspire recklessness forces nonmelees to either disable other helpful buffs to get rid of it, or live with less fortification and no positive bonus.

    If Inspire Recklessness gets changed, it MUST have the fortification debuff removed. Replacing it with some other kind of debuff that only applies to melee characters would be fine (say, a stacking 2% doublestrike per succesful melee hit, and -2% fortification to self, capped at 5 procs, duration 10 seconds..?), but please stay away from the 100% negative towards non-melees aspect that it currently has.

  2. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebondevil View Post
    They should just get rid of the Epic Ward buff entirely, I do not have the words to properly describe how stupid the concept is, either it should apply to all epic level characters (which includes the players!) or none.

    One could argue that Sonic Weapons and Thundering Armour are Infusions rather than spells, there's nothing in the bard toolset that even hints they should get equipment enhancement effects and they really do belong to the artificer.

    Sonic Weapon is actually a 2nd level bard spell in WotC supplementals among many other sonic spells.

    As for a Fifth level DoT I could see the possibility, but as sonic damage it should do less damage than other elemental types simply due to the lack of resistances mobs should have to sonic damage.

    Yup. One die step is standard. There are actually several sonic DoT spells to select from at various levels, starting at 2nd level bard spells, and some illusory DoT spells too.

    Songs are the Bard equivalent, and there's a number of things that let you recover them over time. Bards don't need SLA's as well.

    One song per 5 minutes after farming an item and giving up a slot isn't quite the same as 0SP, 1SP, or 3SP SLA's.

    I would prefer adding more variety of song abilities over SLA's, however. Songs provide flavor and bard don't need every benefit allotted other arcane casters.


    Bards are MEANT to be the red headed step children of Arcanes. But they get some bonuses to make up for the lack of spellcasting: Better Saves, Better BAB, More HP and their unique Songs comes to mind.

    I can make a STR based wizard who, with his bonus feats, can add TWF and spell feats, has more variety of arcane buffs, more fortification, more hit points (+4 CON bonus plus bonus PrE hp), 2 no save control spells instead of one (power word stun and otto's IR vs just otto's IR), no save offensive DoT's (like eladars, niacs, black dragon bolt, icestorm), power word kill, cost effective HoT's (much better than sustaining song), and now the improved tenser's transformation.

    Or a person could go WF melee wizard for the WF enhancement bonus plus the repair line and still have better self healing options than a WF bard ever would along with the spell benefits.

    WILL and FORT use the same progression. REF might be better on a bard as they both dumpstat it so up to 6 better REF off the base. Of course a standard wizard takes insightful reflexes and has BETTER saves than a bard because: 1) Bards will not be adding as much DEX as those wizards will add INT, 2) WILL is still the same, and 3) FORT is something that wizards will have bonuses due to the higher CON and they come with racial bonus saves or immunities.

    Many of the unique songs don't stack with equipment, make them largely superfluous.High level bard songs do almost nothing.

    Song of Freedom? Usually dealt with using potions for what it cures.
    Inspire Greatness? Small competence bonus also found on equipment, gives some temporary hit points.
    Inspire Heroics? Morale bonuses that don't stack with existing spells. The dodge bonus is a bonus but small and dodge is capped by armor so won't stack beyond that.
    Mass Suggestion? Already covered by spells and restricted by creature type, content type, and flat DM fiat using the "someone already controls them" method.
    Recklessness? Doesn't stack with equipment.
    Ironskin Chant? I can get 5DR without a song.
    Arcane might? Doesn't stack with equipment or increase max caster level.
    Vigor? This actually is a useful song but given the large number of alternatives to restore SP, the larger SP pools already found on other casters, and the introduction of CHEAP SLA's not such a big deal as one might think.
    Trance? That's a useful buff to have given but it doesn't stack with the ship buff for the only school bards specialize in and the other schools are even farther behind in spell DC's. It makes more sense to simply start with a permanent DC bonus that is does to start with a weaker one and use a song to help catch up. A song that no longer helps catch up to the main school.
    Various other songs that mimic spells? Those mimic spells, go so not a big bonus.
    Fascinate family of songs? These can be useful but since wizards also cover CC very well they become highly situation and are easily disrupted.

    BAB is covered with clickies usually. Now tensers covers it better. There isn't even an armor bonus with light armor because of twilight, mithral, slotting to reduce ASF, and in some cases enhancements. On top of that PRR is based on that base attack bonus for which wizards and sorcerers can slot (more easily for wiz) for full bab giving then a PRR advantage if they simply decide to find some low ASF light armor.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ebondevil View Post
    Honestly most of the complaints about bards seem to be of the sort 'I don't like my bard it's not a 'Wizard/Sorcerer/Cleric' make it more like them!'. If people want to play a Full caster, they should play a Full caster, not try and turn a Bard into one, they're not meant to be or they would have 9th level spells.

    Bards are a Jack of all trades and should be masters at Support (Buffs, Debuffs, Charms, Songs, CC), and from what I've seen they do pretty well at that, though I would agree they could use some improvements in those areas.

    The biggest problem though is not with Bards, it's that DPS rules the game, while Buffs/Debuffs are penalized in a variety of ways when effecting Mobs.

    Bards should be able to make the Purple Name Raid bosses dance till their feet bleed, if the boss fails their saves!


    Right now bards are more jacks-of-few-trades. What support do they actually provide outside of inspire courage, some party healing, and sometimes CC?

    Bards don't need to be full casters and claiming that's what players are asking for moves into the strawman territory. What players are claiming is that bards have been largely ignored over time and that has impacted their relative strength negative, and is not the same thing as what you are stating.

    If the devs want bards to be jacks-of-all-trades they need to provide bards with tools for such and right now they don't really have the melee tools to compare better than a melee wizard. That's not a jack-of-all-trades, that's bottom tier ability. A jack-of-all-trades would need to adequately be suitable for any role to be considered such and right now that simply isn't true. And a jack-of-all-trades doesn't mean the ability to focus in one area of those trades just to come up short on a class specifically designed for it.

    The "ultimate support" class concept doesn't work either because support implies healing, damage mitigation,some CC, and buffing/debuffing. That's what divine casters do. The limited spell list in comparison impacts that and there are a lot of buffs to which bards simply do not have access. A few good buffs is not a buffing class (again, many of which don't even stack with equipment -- classes should not be replaced by equipment). Should we even bother to try and count the debuffs?

    Bards could be the best CC in the game and they still wouldn't outclass other casters simply do to poor individual damage options and lack of instant killing (something they have in PnP btw. Hold and coup FTW) and lack of nuking options. They could definitely have improvements in nuking and damage spells and still never come anywhere near other casters. They should be a the top of the CC abilities. CC is damage mitigation so it covers 2 birds that way and suits the initial class design while adding identity to bards.

    Healing is a support ability. The best healing is being given to other classes. Every full caster has better self healing options. Divine casters have better healing options, more status effects, carry debuffs and buffs, have much better armor options, the same BAB but better buffing for it and consequently better PRR, have SLA healing, have higher damage nuking, spells, intant death spells, also carry some CC.

    I can easily make a wiz, fvs, or cleric that is far more of a jack-of-all-trades than a bard actually is. I can provide more support on those other classes too in the form of healing, status effects, or CC. Calling a bard a jack-of-all-trades and actually making a bard a jack-of-all-trades are two different things and we don't have those tools.



    This, in my opinion, is what bards need to bring up to more of a jack-of-all-trades using songs and spells would include but not be limited to:

    1) More variety of songs and spells in general with STACKING bonuses.
    2) More unique bard spells and songs the work towards those goals.
    3) Some MELEE enhancements / boosts as well as spell enhancements / boosts. It's pretty hard to call them jacks-of-all-trades when the enhancements cover songs and spells.



    The bard class should be geared towards a mix of crowd control, healing (healing enhancements are required for the spellsinger PrE for pity's sake), buffing, and better personal melee/casting buffs. As a hybrid style class this should be done with a mix of spells and songs.

    For example, a song that works like an action boost for +10 stacking spellpower to the group per tier, and plus +20 stacking spellpower to the bard per tier that can go up to 5 or 6 tiers (put it in the spellsinger tree in the new system) fits the song theme, fits the support theme with a party buff, and gives the bard a personal boost to healing and sonic damage beyond what the party sees for their bonuses. With the smaller base on bard spells compared to heal/massheal/directdamage/biggermasscures on other classes the bard still doesn't approach the total potential of those other classes.

    Arcane might that gives +1 caster level to other classes and from +1 to +4 based on perform check to the bard might actually be a bit more useful and up to +4 caster level based on perform is what we see in the PnP ability.

    Add spells like sonic weapon and bladeweave and tactical precision for some more combat spell buffs. Sonic weapon is a bard spell and doesn't step on any toes. The difference is that a bard could just cast it sooner instead of scrolling elemental weapons. Toss in an attack haste or damage boost.

    The bonus critical threat range that wasn't added for fatesinger could have been reworked, and could still be reworked still for heroic bard levels, to add +1 stacking threat range to the party and +2 threat range for the bard just like an action boost, for a song. That could go in the war chanter tree.

    Allow inspire heroics to stack the dodge bonus beyond the armor cap and add a PRR bonus. Change inspire greatness to a +5% hit that stacks. These are higher level bard songs and should have some relevence.

    Add the ability to swap in spells from other classes like we see in multiple bard PrC's in PnP so they can customize spells a bit better for better support, or just add some more of them to the bard list if it's easier.

    Get rid of the restrictions on charm spells in epics. Sheesh.



    None of that is new feedback. It's just feedback for which we do not see comments or results.

    We need to give bards tools to be jacks-of-all-trades and the tools to be a support class because what we have for bards is well below what I would consider appropriate to continue calling it such. When full casters provide better support than a class listed as the ultimate support class and also become better jacks-of-all-trades than the jack-of-all-trades class due to more available options then either the concept is wrong or the implementation is flawed.

    Top dog CC, better healing/curing/buffing, some better melee options and we're back on track. Without those bards are inspire courage once every few minutes with some situation usefulness and everything else is largely irrelevant outside of some healing ability. No one should be intentionally building a red-headed stepchild class and I don't agree that is how they are meant to be. Jack-of-all-trades means simultaneous competence in several roles; not as much as specific class design apply, but a relative facsimile.

    I'm still waiting for specific let's talk threads on classes to help with shaping the new system.

    Not wanting to risk a derailment when this is beyond simply commenting on the ship buff, I also liked exploding umbrals.
    Last edited by Aashrym; 10-04-2012 at 06:20 PM.

  3. #143
    Community Member Marewood's Avatar
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    "NEW: All Cannith Alchemical raid weapons now have their weapon damage dice increased and standardized to 2[W]."

    Yes. This was overdue but thanks a lot!!!
    Btw.: Will this change be retroactive to alter already existing items?

  4. #144

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    +1s given out as much as possible here especially to bard fans

  5. #145
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    In PnP irresistible dance is really when you've made it as a bard. I think DDO players are a little too focused on DPS and don't really consider support to be useful.

  6. #146
    Community Member fco-karatekid's Avatar
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    Though by no means is it a ragequittable offense, I loved the exploding incorporeals... why remove it? causing lag?

  7. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by oweieie View Post
    In PnP irresistible dance is really when you've made it as a bard. I think DDO players are a little too focused on DPS and don't really consider support to be useful.
    The problem consists of not actually having appropriate tools to even be considered support. Inspire courage, haste, rage, and the occasional fascinate/cure doesn't qualify them as high end support. The stronger healing, more affliction/status effect cures, variety of CC for multiple save types, SLA healing, and buff/debuffs on clerics and favored souls makes them more suited for a player to create a support character than a bard does. They also come with better personal melee options, more damage spells, more spell points, higher hit points, better armor options, and instant death effects; a much better jack of all trades.

    Some CC, some healing, a few buffs that include the unique inspire courage. Even that unique inspire courage can be gained with past life, fatesinger destiny, finding good hope scrolls or the mask clickie, or the +4 morale bonus for greater heroism.

    The attack bonus is only what can be added beyond greater heroism and very much marginalized on the new AC system. The damage bonus tends to be what can be added beyond a good hope clickie so the bard's big damage contribution right now is all of +5 damage per hit or so, and only for actual combat -- not alot anymore.

    I find support to be very useful and I like the idea of a jack-of-all-trades class. The issue I currently see is that a bard doesn't actually fit the criteria so much these days and full casters fit both better.

    The problem is that simply calling bards a support class or a jack-of-all-trades doesn't make a bard into either.
    Last edited by Aashrym; 10-05-2012 at 05:18 PM.

  8. #148
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by legendlore View Post
    (...snip) Bards shouldn't just be buff bots, they wield the most powerful magic in all of Eberron, the magic that the dragons used to create the world as they sang it into being. If any class should have an "Everything is nothing" ability it should in fact be bards since they wield the magic of creation and existence, now monk may make sense from a 80s kung-fu movie perspective that likely more players are familiar with but this isn't a kung-fu movie it's supposed to be dnd.
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  9. #149
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brennie View Post
    (...snip) Inspire Recklesness is, in my opinion, the worst ability in the game. Bar none. THe nonstacking doublestrike is an issue, to be sure, but the worst part is the -fortification! Anyone who is not a melee, or who already has an equivalent source of doublstrike actually gets DEBUFFED by this song. Infact, for casters, archers, healers and the like, this song represents nothing but pain and potential griefing. And while there is a way to counter this (defensive stance), that method also dispels any rage-type effects too. So inspire recklessness forces nonmelees to either disable other helpful buffs to get rid of it, or live with less fortification and no positive bonus.

    If Inspire Recklessness gets changed, it MUST have the fortification debuff removed. Replacing it with some other kind of debuff that only applies to melee characters would be fine (say, a stacking 2% doublestrike per succesful melee hit, and -2% fortification to self, capped at 5 procs, duration 10 seconds..?), but please stay away from the 100% negative towards non-melees aspect that it currently has.
    I'd personally keep some kind of drawback to it in spirit of the original intention but perhaps change it to a stacking AC penalty (untyped) so when you're spell-raged and "reckless" your AC is quite terrible. If devs wanted to be even more punitive, an increase in glancing blow damage would be even worse for people that have already dumped AC.
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