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  1. #61
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    Do your homework, the game will be free, there is no subscription model planned at all. They are gambling, but that's a safe gamble if the game is good.

    Remember, in this type of game you have many that want all the shinies, they want easy buttons, they want vanity. And just about anything that saves them time.

    Pick any two from my short list and they should make money.
    It will be as much free as DDO is. Or if anything maybe more P2Win given Cryptic history.
    Free in so much as you do not need to pay for the game nor pay for server access, but

    If you want the best gear in a Cryptic game, you need to buy "grab bags" and gamble. This is also how they did several costume pieces. (ticked off a lot of players. Even those with stipends.) Cryptic CO also released some gear in store that would be pretty darn powerful. The full set would have been roughly raid loot equivalent at the time. I've no idea what happened to it since though, so others can further correct me there.

    LOTRO has something similar with locked boxes, but I don't know how great the loot can be in those.

    Also, Cryptic ala CO... you could buy stuff from the store and put it into the AH. No gold farming issue there any more. When Cryptic supports their own method. DDO has started to slowly follow suit if you consider raid timer passes, and cosmetic pets. (do the certs still bind? I know they didn't at first.)

  2. #62
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memnir View Post
    I think comparing DDO and Neverwinter will wind up being a lot like comparing apples to raspberries.
    One has seeds on the outside?

  3. #63
    Community Member ThreeEyedBob's Avatar
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    "Free to Play" seldom is. The more nich a game, the more they need to have necessary or powerful items in the store. GW2 gets away with a store-light because of large box sales. Neverwinter, not so much I think.

    I would bet some money on them introducing "DM Authoring tools" of varying power for the Foundry, purchasable through the ingame store.

    There is nothing wrong with promoting the game as "free to play" as I see it. But people just dont seem to realize that what you usually get as "free" is just a tiny portion of the game.
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  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    It will be as much free as DDO is. Or if anything maybe more P2Win given Cryptic history.
    Free in so much as you do not need to pay for the game nor pay for server access, but

    If you want the best gear in a Cryptic game, you need to buy "grab bags" and gamble. This is also how they did several costume pieces. (ticked off a lot of players. Even those with stipends.) Cryptic CO also released some gear in store that would be pretty darn powerful. The full set would have been roughly raid loot equivalent at the time. I've no idea what happened to it since though, so others can further correct me there.

    LOTRO has something similar with locked boxes, but I don't know how great the loot can be in those.

    Also, Cryptic ala CO... you could buy stuff from the store and put it into the AH. No gold farming issue there any more. When Cryptic supports their own method. DDO has started to slowly follow suit if you consider raid timer passes, and cosmetic pets. (do the certs still bind? I know they didn't at first.)
    Yeah buying gear like that in Neverwinter wont fly. D&D folk arent typically that stupid, and believe me the Neverwinter forum folks are letting them know it. Also many of them are used to the other Cryptic games and are watching. So far, with what little is known, it appears Cryptic is veering away from some of their bad habits.

    I do expect some pay2win to creep in, as history tends to repeat itself - but I do believe they are attempting to change the mold with this game, and its quite possible they make it known in their cash shop.

    Here, this is a great GenCon 2012 vid that answers the latest of what we know, and right from Jack Emmert's mouth as well (sidebar: Check DDO's own "ProducerGlin" sitting right by his side!)


    http://youtu.be/a5QFqtpWO1s
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 09-21-2012 at 02:01 PM.


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  5. #65
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    Yeah buying gear like that in Neverwinter wont fly.
    *laughs* You put it in the store, people will buy. You will have, just like here, a vocal minority that gets weighed, measured, and found lacking compared to bean counter profit margins.

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    *laughs* You put it in the store, people will buy.
    There is no question people will buy almost anything you offer in the digital world.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 09-21-2012 at 06:14 PM.

  7. #67
    Community Member dragons1ayer74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post

    Thanks for the cool links lots of interesting stuff happening. Part 1 of the interview is pretty neat too although it looks like producer Glin from DDO has less of a handle on a DDO experience or really doesn’t play his own game much. Also found it very cool how the CEO of cryptic gave a nice plug for DDO and the expansion.

  8. #68
    Community Member chance2000's Avatar
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    Default Follow link then look at games

    Follow the link to perfect world and at the top of the page is a drop down menu of the games

    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    Wholey owned does NOT mean same company.

    Crypic has nothing to do with Runic other than the parent company is the same.
    http://nw.perfectworld.com/
    or
    http://www.perfectworld.com/

    I could be wrong. Would not be the 1st time nore the last.
    I enjoyed playing Torchlight and ordered Torchlight2 when it was advertized.
    They did the same as Turbine with the Summer update, pre order and get a beta key.
    I was more interested in Torchlight2 than the Neverwinter MMO.
    Plus ordering Torchlight 2 thru the ad I used got it real cheap.
    They stated yesterday that a Torchlight MMO is no longer in the works
    Last edited by chance2000; 09-21-2012 at 05:51 PM. Reason: They stated yesterday
    Not all who wander are lost. I am not lost, I am just exploring.
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  9. #69
    Founder & Hero Uska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    How is this going to work in a persistent world when I can take the items from one dungeon and use them forever going forward?

    How are they handling loot and exp?
    I have less faith in the game due to player generated content since 99.9% will be garbage

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  10. #70
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chance2000 View Post
    Follow the link to perfect world and at the top of the page is a drop down menu of the games
    I'm not going to call you wrong as I understand what you are thinking.

    Perfect World US is a sub company of the main Perfect World over in asia somewhere. I think they call it "international". (I'm probably wrong on that one.)

    Any who, Perfect World US bought Cryptic... 1.. 2 years ago. Cryptic is a wholly owned subsidiary of PW-US. Much how Turbine is a wholly owned subsidiary of WB.

    I'm not certain of the details, but apparently PW-US only holds a majority interest in Runic and is their publisher now.

    This is why you will see both Cryptic game and Runic games downloadable from PW. They have an interest in both being profitable. It helps their bottom line.

    And you are right about the MMO..
    http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2012/...ork-on-an-mmo/

    I find that rather funny as their statements fly directly against what their own "about" website says.
    http://www.runicgames.com/about
    "Their upcoming projects include an MMORPG based in the world of Torchlight to be published by Perfect World Co. Ltd."

  11. #71
    Community Member chance2000's Avatar
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    Default Odd thing is

    To activate the key for Tochlight 2 and get it set for online play co-op.
    Had to get into both Runic and Perfect world.
    might explain it
    In 2010, Perfect World Entertainment, Inc. bought an $8.4 million majority stake in Runic Games
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runic_Games
    Well I have 3 toons playing the game and so far not to bad, not as in depth as DDO by any means.
    One cool thing about the game it keeps tracks of how many kills you have made, time played, time played at current level, things broken, Dungeons completed, traps set off.
    Do not remember if like the 1st one if they tell you how many steps you have taken.
    Not to much that you can customize.
    Every Character has a pet think you have like 8 to pick from.
    One nice thing is your pet has a pack and you can send it back to town to sell items in quest for you.
    Where I give DDO 4 out of 5 rating. Torchlight 2 is a solid 3.
    Not all who wander are lost. I am not lost, I am just exploring.
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  12. #72
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    I've read literally everything I can find about Neverwinter. I'm really excited about it. I may come off as a bit of a fanboy. I play DDO right now and will be till the day before Neverwinter is released (unless I get into beta).

    A lot of people worry that since Cryptic's other games sucked then Neverwinter will suck. In an interview with one of the lead designers of Neverwinter he said that they've made a huge effort to change that. They realized that they'd gotten really good at creating lots of mediocre content quickly and were now focusing on creating a smaller amount of better content. They realized that thier games deserved the lower ratings that they did and I would hope that since they've at least realized that problem that they'll do something to fix it, but I guess only time will tell there.

    A lot of people worry that they'll have to dig through mountains of bad user generated content to get to the good stuff. Cryptic has stated and shown that they have a rating system in place. After someone plays a mission they have an option to rate the adventure so that othe people can tell if it is good or not. Additionally, if you really like a mission then you can subscribe to the maker so that you know when they've put out new stuff. Each "DM" has a blog that they can update which may keep subscribers up to date on upcoming content that they're working on. You'll even be able to donate to content creators that you like to encourage them. Also they're going to reward highly rated DMs with vanity stuff like special forum avatars, a "DM" outfit in game, etc. It seems like they've put a lot of effort into this ratings system, which is a good thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    I have less faith in the game due to player generated content since 99.9% will be garbage
    Actually only 99.5% of it will be garbage. As Cryptic mentioned about thier STO foundry, about a half percent of the missions that were user created were up to the level of quality that were being created by Cryptic developers. That means that out of the 50,000 user generated adventures there were about 250 more that were top of the line. Being that there are about 282 total quests in DDO (and 24 wilderness areas), imagine if users could literally double the amount of high-quality content? And it wouldn't cost you anything to play it. Would that not be awesome?

    That brings up another point: All the content in Neverwinter is free. I'm thinking that with competition like that, DDO is going to have to think about changing things up if they want to stay competitive, especially concerning new players. If a new player knew of both DDO and Neverwinter and had the option, what do you think the majority would do if they'd played to level 4 in DDO and realized that they either had to start paying for adventures or just switch games? I for one would rather be spending my money on character slots and bank space than adventures.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThreeEyedBob View Post
    I would bet some money on them introducing "DM Authoring tools" of varying power for the Foundry, purchasable through the ingame store.
    While Neverwinter will have a cash shop for god knows what, they've stated that they're doing as little as possible to limit potential content creators. You wouldn't want to lose that guy who would be in the top one-half-percent who would be willing to create an entire 10-adventure campaign because you charged a buck an adventure to unlock the slots for him to do it. They'd rather have the ten more awesome adventures to help retain players and make money elsewhere in the cash shop than a few hundred bucks for adventure slots. Also, in thier quest to get the best possible content to retain players they've realized that they need to offer literally everything to content creators for free. If they charge two bucks for a dungeon expansion pack for the Foundry and only 10% of thier DMs buy it then they've just lost out on 90% of thier potentially awesome content which might've retained more players. They realize these things already and have stated that while they'll be selling certain things in the cash shop, the Foundry will be completely free.

    I've seen Neverwinter's "Foundry Toolset limitations" listed as a negative for Neverwinter. In the comparison to DDO I'd actually say its a positive: "Fewer Foundry toolset limitations than DDO". Foundry limitations in Neverwinter: You can't decide what loot and exp to place in a dungeon. When a player plays they will get level-appropriate loot based on the difficulty of enounters that you provide them. Thus if you throw in nothing but a whole lot of easy encounters then they will get exp and loot for a whole lot of easy encounters. If you want your adventure to have better loot then you'll need to add harder encounters. The end reward is also defined by the difficulty that you put in. Being that players will all be fighting for every reward then you don't have to worry that other players got awesome gear handed to them for free.

    Speaking of loot, they've gone with a hybrid of DDO's awesome "Your loot is your own" system and the "Roll on loot" system of games like WoW. When you open the end chest it gives everyone something, and then there are also items that you get to roll on. Nobody goes home empty handed and some people go home winners.

    Cryptic seems to have leared a lot from STO's foundry about exploits, and they're making a solid attemtp at derailing those without affecting the players negatively. There was a fairly long video somewhere about this specifically. They're building the Neverwinter Foundry from scratch and they're retroactively updating the STO foundry with new things that they've learned.

    I liked 3rd edition a lot, but it was more difficult to play pen-and-paper than 4th edition. My players liked 4th edition a lot, either because it was easier to play or because it was so much easier to DM and I could crank out roughly balanced adventures for them. Now that both versions are video games and all the math in combat is done by the computer, I think I'd rather 3rd edition, if only for the character customization. While in 4th edition there is customization in terms of abilities and feats and equipment, it is much more limited. For example I can't be a 4 bard/3 paladin/2 ranger in 4th edition like I can in 3rd edition. (Not that anyone would want to be that exact thing.) I know that in 4th edition pen-and-paper you can still make a fighter who can tank really well, or one who cannot tank at all. You can still make a cleric who can stand in the front line next to the fighter and be effective, or one who stands in back line next to the ranger and be just as effective. You can make a wizard who controls monsters in combat or one who does AOE damage. And you can make a rogue... uh, not sure what kind of rogues there are; aren't they all stabby?

    They've released very little about the classes except that there are only four. (ouch!) I don't see how anyone can argue that they're going to be similar to each other. There's a wizard, a fighter, a rogue and a cleric. Those are about as different as any four classes could possibly be. I share your worry that there won't be much variety within a class, but again, we don't actually know anything yet. I guess the positive to this is that if you get a certain class in your party at least you know what to expect.

    I think the graphics in Neverwinter look pretty good. I've never let graphics stop me from playing a game. Terraria and Minecraft were some of the best games I've ever played and thier graphics might be considered a little bit under par. For me its all about the polish. When I hit a button does the game respond? When it looks like I should have hit my enemy, did I actually hit him? Is there enough fun content to keep me busy? That sort of thing. I can't tell you if any of those are in Neverwinter, but I can say that bashing the graphics is a pretty weak argument to me.

    I hadn't heard about Neverwinter's visual character customization but that sounds nice. I can't tell you how many times I've bought a new set of armor in DDO and prayed as I put it on that it didn't look like garbage.

    The biggest draw in Neverwinter to me is the Foundry because I want to tell my own stories and see what people think. I've thought more about this than actually playing the game. I am worried about the limitations, even though they won't come right out and say what they are. I'm worried that there might not be enough Z-axis freedom to move items and rooms around. I'm also worried about the variety of traps. The detail of being able to optionally dress up and name every NPC in an adventure and being able to define branching, looping dialogue trees sounds exciting.

    I worry about how Neverwinter will make money. What will they charge for? Here's what I'm thinking: Vanity items (weapon and armor skins), bag space, bank space, character slots, premium races, premium classes, experience boosters, What else? I personally don't buy any boosters and I'm a DDO VIP so I don't need a lot of the other stuff; I don't know much I'd spend if I didn't have to pay for VIP. I agree that its really hard to make a cash shop that isn't pay to win, but I think it's not that big of a deal in a game that is PVE only. They say they're putting in PVP though and so any pay to win items in the shop are going to suffer a lot of backlash, I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    Yeah buying gear like that in Neverwinter wont fly. D&D folk arent typically that stupid,...
    I think you're underestimating human stupidity. Of course, I think I think ANY estimantion is an underestimation of human stupidity.

    I have my hopes up for Neverwinter, but then I've been burned before when I had my hopes up for the big steaming pile of **** that was Star Wars Galaxies, and more recently the big steaming pile of **** that is War of the Roses, and the other game that I'm in the beta for right now but probably can't mention which I also was excited for and am also not too fond of. But I'm going to keep my hopes up for Neverwinter. Its at least fun to dream.

  13. #73
    Community Member lilleengen2's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    They don't have the Halfling race.. Count me out!

  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by lilleengen2 View Post
    They don't have the Halfling race.. Count me out!
    LOL! The game isnt out yet. Early 2013 at the earliest. Expect them to add more races and classes before launch. Halflings will most likely be in. Expect races not in DDO. Tieflings for example have just been confirmed.


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  15. #75
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beethoven View Post
    D&D (at its core) has been about a small group of like-minded players sitting together and having fun.
    Thanks for the laugh.

    Like Minded PnP groups.. Still laughing.

  16. #76
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    I use three major measuring sticks when I conclude how good or terribad an MMO is.

    1. How good are the utilitty classes? In just about any MMO, the "specialized" classes who focus on doing one thing really well rock at what they do, but can I build a jack of all trades toon that succeeds in the game.

    2. How far off the "Tank-Healer-Damager" path can I veer and still succeed. So far, DDO has everyone else wipped on this aspect. Having to log my main on and do the_exact_same_thing_I _always_do, is boooooring!

    3. How "needed" are all of the classes at endgame? Theres nothing worse than leveling up a toon to max level then finding out that your class isnt really needed at endgame. Ive met my quota for this for a lifetime or two.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  17. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I use three major measuring sticks when I conclude how good or terribad an MMO is.

    1. How good are the utilitty classes? In just about any MMO, the "specialized" classes who focus on doing one thing really well rock at what they do, but can I build a jack of all trades toon that succeeds in the game.

    2. How far off the "Tank-Healer-Damager" path can I veer and still succeed. So far, DDO has everyone else wipped on this aspect. Having to log my main on and do the_exact_same_thing_I _always_do, is boooooring!

    3. How "needed" are all of the classes at endgame? Theres nothing worse than leveling up a toon to max level then finding out that your class isnt really needed at endgame. Ive met my quota for this for a lifetime or two.
    It's way too early to know the answer these questions. It is 4e. So lots of combat differences. The boring factor is helped by not having to run the same quests over and over and over again, due to what looks like an awesome quest construction kit.

    Neverwinter may have more build options than DDO has, as it goes to level 60. However, most character creation/leveling details are still unknown, so we have no idea what Cryptic will come up with.. Visual character customization will blow DDO out of the water, Cryptic is known for insane variety in that area. However for me, its all about character creation and leveling. If that sucks, the whole game will suck for me. I think they are done promoting the Foundry for a while, so other details should be available soon.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 10-23-2012 at 06:33 PM.


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  18. #78
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    Apparently the game has mouselook on always, which is a big turnoff for me. I like to hold down a mouse button when I'm looking around and control the mouse pointer when I'm not.

  19. #79
    The Hatchery GeneralDiomedes's Avatar
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    I will never play a game that depends primarily on user generated content, professional designers exist for a reason.

  20. #80
    Founder & Hero Uska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralDiomedes View Post
    I will never play a game that depends primarily on user generated content, professional designers exist for a reason.
    I agree very little of the player generated content of nwm 1&2 impressed me and none of CoH did so having the majority be that way is a huge stop sign of course basing on 4E and having cryptic involved was enough to stop me anyways I would play a SOE game before a cryptic game and they killed my last face MMO

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