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  1. #1

    Default Anyone know the # of Units sold for Expansion

    I was doing some google searches on this subject and couldn't find anything definitive. I was just wondering what the actual number of units sold was for the Expansion Pack, including pre-orders.

    I don't know whether or not its common practice that companies release such information, but usually you have a general idea if the expansion sold well. In this case I don't really know.

    I'm just curious if this will be the only Expansion Pack we see. If MotU sold well, I would assume there would be another expansion pack in the works. If not, then maybe that's the only one we'll ever get.
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    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Only the people over at Turbine have the exact numbers and they aren't likely to post any for others to see.

    I have no doubt that we will see another expansion eventually. Perhaps even yearly. They were able to charge VIP's for adventure packs (while tacking on a pile of sketchy fixes and the generally liked destiny system). If they can essentially charge VIP's for adventure packs once a year, then why wouldn't they? Extra money for them. After the way the preorders went this time, I'd have to say many people will be much more hesitant to fork over any cash in advance next time. It was not Turbine's best moment.
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    I don't think they'll do it again any time soon, there were SO MANY PROBLEMS, and despite the large, one time profit, it seriously cost them a lot of consistent paying customers.

    There were 2 reasons for that. The $80 deal was, actually, an AMAZINGLY good deal. You basically bought the entire game for that price, and never have to spend another dime. Ever.

    And of course, the disappointment, bugs, fails, etc. etc., lack of what was promised, it people just won't pay that again.

    Now, Turbine 'could' fix the first problem by only selling expansions at around $20 base with a $30 bonus pack, with limited bonuses (like just a Unicorn gold seal hireling with cleric levels), but they'll never do the crazy one with all the packs included, it can't have been worth it on their end to see so many people quit VIP.

    Of course, some executive might force the issue just to get a big bump in a quarterly profit and a bonus in his end of the year check... but I have faith that DDO is highly overlooked at WB.

    Edit: I'm sorry, that was a HUGE derail by just the third post! Apologies

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    Community Member Fomori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by countfitz View Post
    I don't think they'll do it again any time soon, there were SO MANY PROBLEMS, and despite the large, one time profit, it seriously cost them a lot of consistent paying customers.

    There were 2 reasons for that. The $80 deal was, actually, an AMAZINGLY good deal. You basically bought the entire game for that price, and never have to spend another dime. Ever.

    And of course, the disappointment, bugs, fails, etc. etc., lack of what was promised, it people just won't pay that again.

    Now, Turbine 'could' fix the first problem by only selling expansions at around $20 base with a $30 bonus pack, with limited bonuses (like just a Unicorn gold seal hireling with cleric levels), but they'll never do the crazy one with all the packs included, it can't have been worth it on their end to see so many people quit VIP.

    Of course, some executive might force the issue just to get a big bump in a quarterly profit and a bonus in his end of the year check... but I have faith that DDO is highly overlooked at WB.

    Edit: I'm sorry, that was a HUGE derail by just the third post! Apologies
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    Quote Originally Posted by countfitz View Post
    I don't think they'll do it again any time soon, there were SO MANY PROBLEMS, and despite the large, one time profit, it seriously cost them a lot of consistent paying customers.
    One of the many reasons I love the forums: anyone can pull any unfounded statistic out of thin air and present it as fact with a straight face.


    I have tried to get an idea of how DDO (or even Turbine) is doing financially by perusing the WB annual reports, but they roll all of their 'digital entertainment' (games, websites, etc) into one bucket so there is no way to tell who contributes how much to the bottom line for the entire division.

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    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    I am actually really disappointed with update 15. That update was a huge let down. The reality is to continue playing anything new that Turbine releases people have to buy the MOTU to be able to use the new content. This meant $20-40 at least additional money has to be spent for something previously we could just get with our monthly fees or buy per pack. I had taken this to mean that the standards for updates would be going up, but the reality is that update 15 was dreadful really of an update 13 quality or something of that nature. The producer in his letter further states that we have to wait close to 3 months for update 16 from update 15.

    Turbine had been bragging about staffing up and hiring new employees, but yet there is only one dreadful release over a 5 month time frame. No wonder so many folks are playing less and leaving - that and the competition from other gaming sources. Yeah this is a doom post, but update 15 is not good enough - I am sorry, but you have to do better then that Turbine.
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    Don't have any numbers, sorry. I doubt you will ever see them unless you work in the marketing or finance division of WB. I see things in a mostly positive light, though. Despite the bugs that accompanied the expansion, it was a major improvement and addition to the game for my play experience. There were certain features that just did not appeal to me (like the raid; my main is a cleric and there is virtually no reason for me to want to run that aside from assisting guildies). But the vast majority has been very fun to play through and experience. The epic destinies were a great tool for character customization, allowing for an unprecedented change in the way the game is played at cap now. The change to the epic level play was a vast improvement, despite the marginalization of many epic items. It is nice to earn XP for epic play and nice to have use for that XP beyond earning epic levels. The FR environment is incredibly detailed and gorgeous; a vast improvement to the look of the game. The new loot system is much improved; you now earn items relevant to your actual level far more often. I do really wish they are planning a "named item pass" at some point though to improve the existing named items in the game and make them worthy of something, but despite this, I enjoy the new aspect to random loot.

    Then, of course, there were lots of bugs. Not fun. But nothing was game-breaking for me. I had plenty of stuff to do. A few things were borked. A few quests were unplayable. They needed to tweak difficulties and powers. But this was the first such undertaking by Turbine. Such things were to be expected. I only hope they learn from the experience and make the next expansion pack far more fantastic.

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    I think they clearly sold the expansion to a large number of people, and got a correspondingly large revenue bump in the second fiscal quarter. However, Turbine is a business and what really matters is profit, not revenue. The picture is decidedly less positive in that regard.

    At this point, its impossible to even calculate a reasonable profit/loss for the expansion, since Turbine is still in the process of implementing the expansion. There will always be some bugs in software, but not the ridiculously large number of bugs that came with the expansion. The bugs patches that we have already seen, the one that we appear to be getting tomorrow, and the ones Fernando has promised through the end of the year really are just stages 2 through X of the expansion release.

    Aside from the basic implementation costs, there are certainly increased licensing fees to WotC for the Forgotten Realms intellectual property. I have no idea whether that was a one time expense, or an ongoing payment. Does anyone have info on this?

    In addition, Turbine spent a substantial amount of money in advertising for the game, with the expansion being a major selling point.

    Over and above the one time bump in revenue, WB almost certainly expected enough positive buzz to revitalize the game, with increased player numbers, and of course the revenue that would drag along. From a game wide perspective, that most certainly has not been achieved.

    By most accounts, player numbers are down. That is not surprising. Turbine pulled a massive "bait and switch" in game mechanics after a lot of people prepurchased the expansion, which resulted in a substantial number of players leaving.

    The costly advertising campaign has resulting in some new players, but not enough to offset those who left because of changes to game mechanics. There is only so much advertising can achieve in the face of widespread negative comments on the internet.

    All of this has left DDO is a rather dicey position: increased costs, lower ongoing revenue and the word "expansion" carrying a negative connotation with the player base.

    I think its certain that Turbine never expected to do just one expansion. At this point, DDO is an aging, niche online game. It likely needs the periodic revenue boost that an expansion would bring. Unfortunately, Turbine completely missed the boat on its first attempt. I'm glad this is someone else's task to fix. I certainly wouldn't want the job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I am actually really disappointed with update 15. That update was a huge let down. The reality is to continue playing anything new that Turbine releases people have to buy the MOTU to be able to use the new content. This meant $20-40 at least additional money has to be spent for something previously we could just get with our monthly fees or buy per pack. I had taken this to mean that the standards for updates would be going up, but the reality is that update 15 was dreadful really of an update 13 quality or something of that nature. The producer in his letter further states that we have to wait close to 3 months for update 16 from update 15.

    Turbine had been bragging about staffing up and hiring new employees, but yet there is only one dreadful release over a 5 month time frame. No wonder so many folks are playing less and leaving - that and the competition from other gaming sources. Yeah this is a doom post, but update 15 is not good enough - I am sorry, but you have to do better then that Turbine.
    I'm not particularly shocked by Update 15. A good chunk of developer effort is likely directed at completing the unfinished expansion that was released in June.

    I really don't put much credence in the stories of new employees. How many more are working on DDO? How many of those were short term contract workers who came and left once the June expansion date was reached? More workers implies a higher cost structure, and there is absolutely no information to indicate that DDO is suddenly generating more ongoing revenue that would be needed to support a higher cost structure. Quite the opposite, in fact.

    As the DDO profit margin gets squeezed, Turbine is not going to turn this game into a charity. It will reduce its operating costs or search for a way to boost its revenues. In terms of adventure packs, that likely means one or more of the following:

    1) A longer interval between the release of new content, with a higher percentage of revenue coming from consumable sales

    2) lower quality (Broken quests on day 1? We've already seen that.)

    3) Increased prices for adventure packs, with the hope that the resulting decreased sales don't completely offset the higher prices

    No worries. A fanboi will soon be along to explain to us why everything is bright and cheery.

  10. #10
    Community Member Elation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GermanicusMaximus View Post
    I'm not particularly shocked by Update 15. A good chunk of developer effort is likely directed at completing the unfinished expansion that was released in June.

    I really don't put much credence in the stories of new employees. How many more are working on DDO? How many of those were short term contract workers who came and left once the June expansion date was reached? More workers implies a higher cost structure, and there is absolutely no information to indicate that DDO is suddenly generating more ongoing revenue that would be needed to support a higher cost structure. Quite the opposite, in fact.

    As the DDO profit margin gets squeezed, Turbine is not going to turn this game into a charity. It will reduce its operating costs or search for a way to boost its revenues. In terms of adventure packs, that likely means one or more of the following:

    1) A longer interval between the release of new content, with a higher percentage of revenue coming from consumable sales

    2) lower quality (Broken quests on day 1? We've already seen that.)

    3) Increased prices for adventure packs, with the hope that the resulting decreased sales don't completely offset the higher prices

    No worries. A fanboi will soon be along to explain to us why everything is bright and cheery.
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    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elation View Post
    Was gonna reply but then read who this was from....
    No idea who that poster is, but on my server, Thelanis, I see many more lfms up - that indicates new players. Also, my guild tripled in size, b/c of new members joining. About half to three quarters of these always eventually stop coming - but that still leaves the number of players higher. So what I'm seeing is the opposite of what the no-bots above are claiming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elation View Post
    Was gonna reply but then read who this was from....
    LMAO. It appears that even the fanbois can't manage a "bright and cheery"...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singular View Post
    No idea who that poster is, but on my server, Thelanis, I see many more lfms up - that indicates new players.
    Same on Khyber, we used to have some time of the day with less than 3 LFMs. That is not the case anymore, far from it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    One of the many reasons I love the forums: anyone can pull any unfounded statistic out of thin air and present it as fact with a straight face.


    I have tried to get an idea of how DDO (or even Turbine) is doing financially by perusing the WB annual reports, but they roll all of their 'digital entertainment' (games, websites, etc) into one bucket so there is no way to tell who contributes how much to the bottom line for the entire division.
    Maybe if enough of us lie and make **** up, they'll be forced to disclose, I don't know, something.

    But yeah, I fully believe what I said in my post, and would LOVE to be disproven by a Turbine employee. I would LOVE that.

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    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    ... The reality is to continue playing anything new that Turbine releases people have to buy the MOTU to be able to use the new content. ...
    Web of chaos, and Through the Rift are both F2P. Eveningstar is a public area. Update 15 does have a heroic mode, as well as epic. So buying MotU isn't technically required. A player could get Update 15 to help pad the heroic XP while continuing to TR ad nauseum.


    (I'd recommend getting the 3 chains in MotU and Epic Destinies, but the reality is Turbine's finally filling out the gaps in the 16-20 wasteland that is quest selection)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    (I'd recommend getting the 3 chains in MotU and Epic Destinies, but the reality is Turbine's finally filling out the gaps in the 16-20 wasteland that is quest selection)
    Can't shed any light on the OP's questions but I hope the above is correct. 16-20 could really use some more content.

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    Quote Originally Posted by countfitz View Post

    But yeah, I fully believe what I said in my post, and would LOVE to be disproven by a Turbine employee. I would LOVE that.
    Me too.

    Of course Turbine employees don't always know the numbers either. I remember when Majmal quoted some statistic about the actual percentage of players who are represented on the forums which everyone here took as gospel until another Turbine employee roundly disputed it and made majmal ret-con his post.

    I'd be surprised if anyone outside of marketing and finance really know the numbers for how successful (dollar-wise) the expansion has been.

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    The Hatchery GeneralDiomedes's Avatar
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    I think all we can really assume is that if the servers are still on, they are still making money.

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    The Hatchery Galeria's Avatar
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    Very disappointed, not with the expansion content which is pretty cool, but with the way the game changed at the same time. I have lost a lot of people who no longer play and a lot of my own enthusiasm.

    So many game mechanic changes were "included" with update 14 that I still don't have a good feel for how to make them work, but then I'm not a jaded lifer who wanted new stuff.

    I really honestly hate Epic Destinies and how stupidly overpowered they are, along with the crazy over-the-top lootgen in Eveningstar coupled with watered-down raid gear. There is no content in the new expansion that comes even close to challenging a fully twinked-out Destiny-capped player.

    Those stupidly overpowered players now dominate heroic level raids, killing the XP and guild renown and challenge. The answer is not to crank up heroic difficulties until epic players are challenged, though! Some of us still enjoy the 1-20 journey.

    Oh, sorry, what was this thread about? Numbers? They'll never tell us. But they cashed in big time, IMHO and I hope it was enough because I don't see the same number of people coughing up for the upcoming expansions.
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    Default Points on this

    1. Eventually, some game industry analyst will probably put up some reasonably researched estimate on sales. But again, that will probably be only an estimate with no official confirmation from the company.

    2. There is no mention of the expansion in earnings conf calls for TWX. Now Turbine is a blip in TWX revenue, so that is understandable. If the expansion were a financial success the one place it would be talked about is the earnings conf calls, at least quoting growth % increase, etc. without actually placing a value on it. It is not even mentioned which is a good indicator of its success.



    Quote Originally Posted by HalfOrcBeautyQueen View Post
    I was doing some google searches on this subject and couldn't find anything definitive. I was just wondering what the actual number of units sold was for the Expansion Pack, including pre-orders.

    I don't know whether or not its common practice that companies release such information, but usually you have a general idea if the expansion sold well. In this case I don't really know.

    I'm just curious if this will be the only Expansion Pack we see. If MotU sold well, I would assume there would be another expansion pack in the works. If not, then maybe that's the only one we'll ever get.
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