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  1. #21
    Community Member hermespan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyHumps View Post
    You're right, +3 evocation on a divine or +9 spell pen on a caster isn't a lot. What game do you even play?
    His point is you can build a character powerful enough that you don't need completionist to make them pretty freaking good.

    I have 5 capped toons. All of them excel at their role. None are TRd except my Artificer experiment.

    If you spend the time you'd spend doing completionist getting the perfect raid and epic gear setup instead, your character will be better anyway hour for hour for the time you spend.

    I might do a completionist, after I get every class I want to play to cap, finish my max damage artificer TR, etc etc etc. There are simply things that give you more bang for the buck that take less time than completionist, at least from my perspective.

    It's not a complete waste of time to do completionist, there are just easier ways to make a character powerful in less time.

  2. #22
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    I have to admit that epic levels have changed the game quite a bit, especially when it comes to which past lives are worthwhile. Personally I have a rogue on his 4th life, and I opted to get 2x fighter and 1x rogue PL on him. Fighter past lives used to be incredibly useful on rogues since they were often a bit starved in the +hit department. The chance to hit chance in the expansion has though made this benefit less overwhelming. I do though still really like fighter past lives on a melee (I also have an battle-cleric on his 11th life, currently) due to the increase in tactical feat DCs. On my rogue I took improved sunder and I land it quite well considering my class (18 rogue/2 fighter dwarf), the 10% reduction in fortification is absolutely awesome for a rogue.

    I think, on a rogue, the value of past lives is as follows:

    - Fighter (reasons mentioned above)

    - Rogue (the +1 bonus to sneak damage is not as potent as the increase to all damage that monk gives, but the bonus to trap saves lets you skimp a bit on your dexterity to increase your strength, constitution and intelligence without being too vulnerable to traps).

    - Paladin (especially a single paladin life is very potent for the active past life feat, which is the strongest active past life for any melee in my opinion. It can not be used while madstoned, but I honestly try to avoid being madstoned on my rogue so that I can use UMD. The heal amp is extremely useful too, since you often rely on heal scrolls for self-healing, and they rarely top you off like normal heal spells).

    - Artificier (the bonus to UMD is in particular what I am interested in from artificier, the bonus to intelligence skills is not really that important, a completionist rogue should definitely not need a bonus to intelligence skills to work. It will save you quite a bit of gear-swapping when you need to UMD something, and it might enable you to UMD spells that are otherwise out of your league, especially artificier spells which have a higher UMD requirement).

    - Monk (static bonus to damage is always handy, but not overwhelmingly strong. It is mostly noticeable in the lower levels).

    - Barbarian (depends on how your build your rogue, you might not be able to fit in more than one toughness feat and no epic toughness which will hurt your hitpoints quite a bit. Personally I think anything less than 500 hitpoints at 20 is too low on any melee, a mark that can be tricky to hit on a rogue).

    - Ranger (this is only in case your build a mechanic... and please for the love of god please don't build a completionist mechanic. The slight increase in resistances is moderately useful, but ship buffs have made this boost somewhat redundant. Some people build arcane archer rogues which would make ranger past lives a tad more useful)

    - All other past life feats. None of them really do anything at all for rogue.

  3. #23
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    Some might argue that bard past lives are moderately useful on rogues, but your will saves will be so low that even a +2 bonus will not do .. anything at all really, since in epic levels you will most likely still only make your saving throw on a roll of 20.

  4. #24
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermespan View Post
    If you spend the time you'd spend doing completionist getting the perfect raid and epic gear setup instead, your character will be better anyway hour for hour for the time you spend.
    This. Going for completionist makes you less powerful than someone who spent the time maxing out EDs, and getting good epic gear. So, if you're going for the most powerful character, you're losing.

    Now, once you get completionist, if you THEN grind out everything else, you may be the best of the best... But of course, the game constantly adds new items and powers. Unless you play a LOT, doubtful you'll ever get EVERYTHING done...

    The guy with 100% gear and EDs and 6 highly focused past lives is going to be more powerful than the guy with 13 past lives (half of which are pretty worthless to that character), and 80% gear and EDs.

    There are simply things that give you more bang for the buck that take less time than completionist, at least from my perspective

    It's not a complete waste of time to do completionist, there are just easier ways to make a character powerful in less time.
    Yep.
    Last edited by Thrudh; 09-19-2012 at 10:14 AM.
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    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
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    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
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    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  5. #25
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    I do agree that completionist is only a good use of time IF you already have good gear, if not outstanding gear. The value of completionist also depends heavily on what class/build you end up with. Personally I think rogue benefits a bit more from completionist than many other melee characters because they can use more of the stats than the other classes. A THF fighter or barbarian would probably not benefit from completionist at all, barbarians are too feat-starved and fighters benefit more from just taking a weapon specialization feat than taking the completionist feat. Monk, rogue and paladin get a fair amount of benefit from completionist.

    Personally on my melee I didn't go for completionist, I went for 3x monk and fighter, 2x paladin and 1x rogue and 1x barbarian.

    But I think all of this is a bit besides the point, since the OP *is* already a completionist (almost, anyways). If he is missing gear and EDs, which is likely, they would definitely have a better reward-to-time-spent ratio.

  6. #26
    Hero Djeserit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermespan View Post

    I have 5 capped toons. All of them excel at their role. None are TRd except my Artificer experiment.

    If you spend the time you'd spend doing completionist getting the perfect raid and epic gear setup instead, your character will be better anyway hour for hour for the time you spend.
    The fun part about pastlives, IMO, is not that they make you much better at one role,

    they open up the options for multiple roles in ways that a single-life character would have a hard time emulating.

    If you have +9 spell pen from multiple past lives, you don't need +4 from selected spell pen feats. This allows you to take something else, like PA&IC. Suddenly your caster has some melee capability. Or maybe you want Lesser Dragonmark of Passage. Very handy for farming certain quests.

    The past lives allow me to fill my primary role, and have some interesting options. To me, having played the game a long time, single-life builds are just dull.

    ...

    Regarding your second point, most completionists have good to ideal gear. Hardly and either/or for many when you consider the rate of game development and how easy it is to level now. It's just about loving a character enough to play it a lot.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    This. Going for completionist makes you less powerful than someone who spent the time maxing out EDs, and getting good epic gear. So, if you're going for the most powerful character, you're losing.

    Now, once you get completionist, if you THEN grind out everything else, you may be the best of the best... But of course, the game constantly adds new items and powers. Unless you play a LOT, doubtful you'll ever get EVERYTHING done...

    The guy with 100% gear and EDs and 6 highly focused past lives is going to be more powerful than the guy with 13 past lives (half of which are pretty worthless to that character), and 80% gear and EDs.



    Yep.
    Firmly in the disagree camp here. We play the same game? Every time they bring out new gear, I have to resort, re-craft-regrind sets of gear for toons what had previously had cohesive gearsets. If you miss an expansion or two grinding out lives and then catch up all you missed was the frustration of watching your gear become obsolete while gaining a static and never erased bonus to your character. Sure a single piece of gear might set you further ahead numerically, but when that gear is outdated (which will be soon) then the dude who was grinding XP comes out way ahead. Talk to the caster types who resorted their gear around the house C pack just to watch it all turn to **** with the expansion...you think they think getting up to date on gear was a better idea than getting another wiz or fvs life behind them? probably not
    Reckter: 28 heroic, 3 iconic and 19 eic PLs, now a 17 art/3rog shadar-kai. Anhilliation: 3x wiz/sorc PLs, 13 epic PLs now a dwarf 17barb/3bard. . Vikzor: 2xfvs + 4x epic PL horc 19fvs 1 fighter. Rekter: 3x rog & 1 fighter + 4 epic PLs, h-orc 13 rogue 6 monk 1 druid. Veisha: 3x bard + 4 epic PLs, PDK 16 bard 4 fighter.

  8. #28
    Community Member Krumm's Avatar
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    Personally, I think it depends on your final build.

    For me, I would think my 1st post completionist life will be an Arti and when I get tired of playing Arti in end game, I'll probably TR into another build (probably Favored soul).

    Having said that, the really strong past life benefits as I see them are

    +9 to ranged damage (+6 from 3 ranger life, +3 from monk life)
    +9 to spell penetration (+6 from wiz, +3 from favored soul)
    +3 evocation DC (sorc lives)

    I'm on my 10th life and I can't wait to play me some end game as Arti... but as nice as +9 ranged damage is (vs +3 I'll have) I can't see myself grinding out 4 more lives without at least enjoying the end game for a few months (at level 25, hitting 20th raid counters and stuff) at least.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krumm View Post
    Personally, I think it depends on your final build.

    For me, I would think my 1st post completionist life will be an Arti and when I get tired of playing Arti in end game, I'll probably TR into another build (probably Favored soul).

    Having said that, the really strong past life benefits as I see them are

    +9 to ranged damage (+6 from 3 ranger life, +3 from monk life)
    +9 to spell penetration (+6 from wiz, +3 from favored soul)
    +3 evocation DC (sorc lives)

    I'm on my 10th life and I can't wait to play me some end game as Arti... but as nice as +9 ranged damage is (vs +3 I'll have) I can't see myself grinding out 4 more lives without at least enjoying the end game for a few months (at level 25, hitting 20th raid counters and stuff) at least.
    As far as I understand the damage increase from monk and ranger do not stack for ranged damage. So +6 should be the maximum (not entirely sure how this works, but it is what everyone has told me).

    I don't think that +9 spell penetration is worth it for an arti since you don't really have any spells that need spell penetration. But sorc/ranger past lives are very useful.

  10. #30
    Community Member Krumm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clayness View Post
    As far as I understand the damage increase from monk and ranger do not stack for ranged damage. So +6 should be the maximum (not entirely sure how this works, but it is what everyone has told me).

    I don't think that +9 spell penetration is worth it for an arti since you don't really have any spells that need spell penetration. But sorc/ranger past lives are very useful.

    Agreed. Spell penetration is useless for arti. I was just trying to list what I felt was stong past life feats when stacked 3/6 times.

    I always thought that monk past life and ranger past life stacks for ranged damage.

    I have bard/arti/monk to go after my current life so I guess I'll find out one of these days.

  11. #31
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    take your time, don't be in hurry
    you could even spend 3 months for 1 TR playing 5 hours per week: the important is enjoying the time that you spend in this game.
    it doesn't matter if you are fast or slow, the important is that you enjoy the time that you spend in this game: power comes with time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quoivat View Post
    I'm married with 2 kids and have a full time job so, TR lives tend to be slower for me. On the flipside i enjoy leveling....mostly

    Q

  12. #32
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Honestly for me, my thoughts align to some of the others here. It really depends on the goal you have for that character.

    Some people have one "main" - for whatever reason, that's what works for them. For me, I have many alts - and a handful I'd call "primary". Some of them are multi-TRs, some are still first life toons. Some of those first life toons I will never TR - sure they could be "better" but not necessarily hugely so. Measurably so, sure ... +1 some where, maybe +2 somewhere else ... you could measure it, but in the bigger sense it wouldn't affect how they perform.

    - I leveled a 10k stars / AA. He's fun. He mostly gets 2nd hand or easy to farm gear. Thing is, he's got 10k stars, manyshot and a high 50s stunning fist. Sure, he could be better. Sure, more past lives would help. But he kinda works just the way he is and I can run end game raids, epics, farm shroud, etc. with him. Three ranger, monk and fighter PLs would rock - as would 3 barb and 3 paladin ... but to me, he hits the benchmarks I need right now.

    - Similarly, I've got a first life wizard who I've never TR'd. I'll get around to him eventually, but frankly he's the guy I use to solo farm epic hard and he works well enough in EE to contribute. He'll absolutely benefit from the caster TRs ... kinda sorta. I've been able to swap EDs or gear when I need to do something specific, so he works thus far.

    - I've got a rogue I've never TR'd. She too will TR at some point, but she still works. High 50s assassinate, all the trap gear and skills you need. I can farm the chest in VoN1 and Song's chest on EE with her, she can assassinate in EE. Yes, I'll TR her at some point but maybe not to assassin as a TR alone won't actually make her assassinate better. She'll be better in other areas, but that number is fine right now. Instead, she'll morph out of assassin.

    - My crafter (artificer) I've worked hard to near-max favor on. I don't see myself doing that again. He'd totally be better off in a different config, but there's no way I'm going to do the favor streak like I did on him last time. There's content I don't like, and I don't want to run it again - no TR for him.

    - I do have a tactics build, and he absolutely will TR. I want the 3 fighter lives for the additional tactics DCs. I want him to do that well, so he will. He's on the short list to stay mostly the same build.

    - I have one toon that seems to be perpetually TRing. Maybe I'll hit completionist on him, maybe not. When in doubt, I TR him.

    - I have another I'm working towards evocation DCs with a minor in spell pen. Minimally FVS, Wiz, 3 sorc ... and that's going nicely. I may take a break on her TR streak and not worry about spell pen, instead focusing her on spell-pen independent builds. The evocation DC (1 wiz, 3 sorc) is what I want her to be good it. Completionist would give her 1 more, but that's 8-10 more freaking lives ... not worth it to me.

    etc.

    I'm far more concerned about the "thing I'm trying to do well" and maximizing time to that.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  13. #33
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    instead of creating a new toon, and having the hassle to re acquire gear, or make duplicate...

    i just tr my only toon in the next class i wish to try, giving precedence to classes with full tier 3 pre... just in case in the future some pre go completed.

    i already have 1 and only 1 twink set for lvl 1, 5-6, 11-12 and that's it...

    i wouln't stand the effort to get again those useful named items, or greensteel just to equip them on an alt

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermespan View Post
    His point is you can build a character powerful enough that you don't need completionist to make them pretty freaking good.

    I have 5 capped toons. All of them excel at their role. None are TRd except my Artificer experiment.

    If you spend the time you'd spend doing completionist getting the perfect raid and epic gear setup instead, your character will be better anyway hour for hour for the time you spend.

    I might do a completionist, after I get every class I want to play to cap, finish my max damage artificer TR, etc etc etc. There are simply things that give you more bang for the buck that take less time than completionist, at least from my perspective.

    It's not a complete waste of time to do completionist, there are just easier ways to make a character powerful in less time.
    It's very true, gear is faster. However, for reasons I'll describe, my preferred methods of power:

    EDs and twists of fate
    Past lives
    Gear

    Why in that order? Gear becomes replaced. Past lives and twists are permanent. What happens when a new piece of gear comes out? Whether yo uhave the current best or not, you grind it. And if you spent ALL of your grind on gear, and not on PL or EDs, hour for hour, you didn't gain as much. Worse, you may need to completely gear up again, because you find that the slot that the new best item is in causes you to need to swap another piece of gear...

    With EDs and past lives, you dont have this issue.

    EDs are much better than past lives because they provide MUCH more power, are MUCH faster, and are permanent.

    So EDs are permanent and fast (relatively). They are number 1.

    Past lives are slow, but permament. Gear is fast(ish) but not permanent. So really, which order you put them into is up to preference: I grind when I have the time, and I usually opt for past lives, because when I take a 3 month hiatus, (I often do, then I play a LOT for 3 months...) my gear is going to be well... not obsolete, but usually not the best. My past lives are still there.

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