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  1. #1
    Community Member Arkat's Avatar
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    Talking Throwy McThrowington - Yes, it's a Thrower Build

    Ok, yeah, it's a Thrower (flavor) build. Sue me if you don't like it!

    Now that we've gotten that out of the way...


    For over the 6.5 yrs I've been playing DDO, I've always seen someone over the years make light of thrower builds, especially halfling thrower builds. I've always been sort of intrigued by them but I hate halflings so I NEVER even once seriously considered making a thrower...until a couple of days ago.

    First, a Noxious Fang Seal dropped for me in The Snitch (I've had the base item and 2 shards for quite some time) AND I was fortunate enough to make an easy trade with Smithers for the scroll so I finally had all the elements I needed for an Epic Noxious Fang which I sort of always saw as a "novel" ranged weapon.

    Second, I took a good look at the Shiradi Champion Epic Destiny. I remembered reading a couple of interesing things about it, most notably Double Rainbow, from a few DDO Forum posts and I also noticed "Audience with the Queen" was a Diplomacy check which, if I remember reading correctly from another DDO Forum post, can add +10 to all stats for a time if your Diplomacy check was high enough. Of course there was all sorts of other Shiradi goodness that applied to thrown weapons as well as Bows.

    So I decided to take a look around for other Thrower builds but I had a hard time finding any recent ones (Sigtrent had a build from 2008) so I decided to come up with my own.

    As I mentioned previously, I hate halflings and I knew I also wanted to use Brutal Throw so I didn't have to pump BOTH STR and DEX up so I was definitely going for a Strength-based build. Half-Orc seemed like a logical choice but since I was also aiming for a high Diplomacy score, I didn't want to suffer a CHA penalty. I wanted to self-heal well but didn't want to devote a lot of skill points to UMD so I finally settled on a Half-Elf Favored Soul Dillettante.

    The level breakdown is:

    12 Fighter (need lots of feats and the Kensei PrE allowed me to take a bunch of enhancements to do some extra damage)

    6 Ranger (I took this for two spells - Ram's Might and Longstrider, two favored enemies - Evil Outsiders and Dragons (might change this to Elementals or Elves for all the Drow content), a few ranged feats, and the Deepwood Sniper PrE)

    2 Paladin (I took these so I could get my Diplomacy to the full 23 ranks and also for the CHA bonus to saves)

    5 Epic (Shiradi Champion will be the primary ED with a few twists from Legendary Dreadnaught including the 3 extra action boosts power)

    I planned out all the equipment and without ship buffs, my Diplomacy skill will be just over 50, and my STR will be 42 or 44 depending on whether I decide to save a few Action Points by dropping Fighter Strength III and the second HElf-Human stat point (Human Adaptability?).

    My To-Hit should be pretty dang good with a 42-44 STR and all the Weapon Focus Feats/Kensei enhancements and my Hit Points should be north of 600 at 25th level so I'm ok there. My saves will be nice (especially with the +9 to all saves from my Paladin levels and a +6 Resistance item).

    My rate of fire with the Epic Noxious Fang (slotted with Heaven's Light Red Augment Crystal or a Devil's/Demon's Ruin Red Augment Crystal depending on what I feel like concentrating on) will be decent (+30% from Quick Draw and Rapid Shot + 60% from Whirling Wrists (Shiradi Champion) + another 30% from Fighter Haste Boost IV) and a whole host of Cannith Crafted specialty returning throwing daggers so breaking DR won't be a problem.

    Not a whole lot of details given here I know but you should get the general idea.

    I was wondering a) if anyone knew any details of what a sufficient Diplomacy skill might be needed to get the +10 to each stat result from the "Audience with the Queen" ED power, and b) what anyone might have to say about the build/idea?

    I know it's not going to be the highest DPS build out there but I was thinking it could be fun.

    Also, do you think this build would benefit by getting "Shot on the Run"? Just from one of the descriptions I read, all that feat does is get rid of the -4 to-hit penalty while moving but I seem to remember hearing it does something else in addition but I can't remember exactly what now but I seem to remember it sounding fairly cool. Can anyone shed some light on that? If all it does is remove the -4 penalty, I'll drop that feat, Dodge and Mobility and take a look at other feats including Skill Focus: Diplomacy and Negotiator to build up my Diplomacy skill and Power Critical to make my critical hits more effective.


    Thanks for any comments or suggestions.
    Last edited by Arkat; 01-23-2013 at 02:37 PM. Reason: spelling; more spelling

  2. #2
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    I liked the idea of a thrower build as well, have been working one up. One problem with dumping dex, ranged feats apply to throwing weapons now. So improved precised shot is a good goal. Also, if you're not set on epic noxious fang, the throwing weapons from the eveningstar challenge vendors have the spellplague effect, which is like a mini double rainbow effect.
    My thrower is going to be 12/6/2 wiz/monk/fighter, using shuriken, 10k stars, and shuriken expertise. It's thrower, but more to try out the viability of throwing while seeing what effects I could get. Good luck!

  3. #3
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkat View Post
    2 Paladin (I took these so I could get my Diplomacy to the full 23 ranks and also for the CHA bonus to saves)
    What about rogue splash instead with pally dilly to get up to +5 to saves? That gets you Evasion and UMD as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by ArcaneArcher52689 View Post
    One problem with dumping dex, ranged feats apply to throwing weapons now.
    What do you mean by "now?" The universal ranged feats have always applied to throwing weapons, AFAIK: i.e., Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, IPS, Zen Archery, Combat Archery. Whereas the other ranged-combat feats are weapon-specific: Brutal Throw & Quick Draw are throwing-only; Manyshot & Bow STR are short-/longbow-only; Rapid Reload is xbow-only; Shuriken Expertise is shuriken-only (duh); the Weap Focus / Spec and Imp Crit feats are split between Throwing & Ranged.

    That said, I agree that any ranged-focused build should be aiming for IPS & CA; the latter requires base DEX 21. If you're not willing to invest the pts into DEX, then ranged combat should be treated as a secondary ability, at best.

  4. #4
    Community Member Arkat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    What about rogue splash instead with pally dilly to get up to +5 to saves? That gets you Evasion and UMD as well.
    Thought about using 2 levels of Rogue but decided against it for 3 reasons:

    1. The Terrorweb Breastplate has both +6 Resistance AND Toughness but it's Medium armor so I'd lose evasion. Additionally, I can make Terrorweb part of the Purple Dragon Knights set and get the Knight's Loyalty bonus (I planned for the Purple Dragon Helm and the Purple Dragon Gauntlets).

    2. Heal scrolls are much better for self-healing and with all levels of the Improved Dilletante enhancements, I get to use Divine scrolls as if I were a 10th level FvS which means a 95% chance of success on Heal scrolls and an even better chance of using Raise Dead scrolls.

    3. If I'm going to be putting a lot of effort to get my CHA up to improve my Diplomacy, I want to take as much advantage of that high CHA score (28 by my calculations) as I can. +9 to saves is a LOT better then the +5 max I could get from the Paladin Dilly.

  5. #5
    Community Member Arkat's Avatar
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    Here's the gear setup I'm thinking of going with btw:

    Helm: Purple Dragon Helm (CON +7, Insightful STR +2, Intimidate +15)
    Goggles: Blindness Immunity of True Seeing Cannith Crafted
    Necklace: Symbol of the Shining Sun (WIS +7, Insightful CHA +2, Concentration +15)
    Trinket: Efficient Metamagic Extend, +13 Diplomacy Cannith Crafted
    Cloak: Adamantine Cloak of the Wolf (Exceptional Seeker +5, Dodge 4%, Attack Bonus +4, Diversion 20% (a.k.a. Threat Reduction 20%))
    Armor: Terrorweb Chitin Breastplate (+6 Enhancement, +8 STR, Toughness, Resistance +6)
    Bracers: Wind Howler Bracers
    Belt: Greensteel Mineral II (+5 Prot, Heavy Fortification, +45 HPs, +6 to STR skills)
    Gloves: Purple Dragon Gauntlets (STR +7, Insightful CON +2, Healing Amp +30%)
    Boots: Cannith Boots of Propulsion (Feather Fall, +15 Jump, 30% Striding, Leap of Faith once every 10 minutes)
    Ring 1: Signet of the Shining Sun (CHA +7, Insightful WIS +2, Superior Healing Lore)
    Ring 2: Epic Buccaneer Ring Tier III (+2 Luck, +7 DEX, Underwater Action, Protection +5, Greater False Life slotted in the Green slot)
    Weapon 1: Epic Noxious Fang or specialty Cannith Crafted DR-breaking throwing dagger
    Weapon 2: Seeker +8 Shield (Tower or Large, not sure which) of Greater Parrying Cannith Crafted

    As you can see, pretty much everything is easy to get. I've got the Terrorweb, the Epic Noxious Fang, Wind Howler Bracers, and Cannith Boots of Propulsion already. I've also gotten my Cannith Crafting levels up to where they need to be. The things that are going to be hardest to get are the Adamantine Cloak of the Wolf (Druid Challenges), the Greensteel Belt (I hate trying to get the Power Shards in Shroud) and the Epic Buccaneer's Ring (I don't know if Pirate Challenge will be around during the time of this year's Talk Like a Pirate day or not).

    Anyway, that's my gear.

  6. #6
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Good luck to you. I myself am working on my own thrower build, but mine is going all out in gimpiness and is a drow shuriken throwing 10k stars monk. Got a bit of rogue in there too and might add fighter if I need the feats. Im having fun with it so far.
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  7. #7
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    Awesome!!1!

    ...

  8. #8
    Community Member Nuryam's Avatar
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    I have been playing with making a thrower for about a year now. And again with the Shiradi Champion ED showing up.

    What do I run in to when comparing it with 2HF and 2WF or bows or xbows?
    1) The throwing weapons have a bad damage profile (1d2 for Shurikens...really?)
    2) The throwing weapons have a bad crit profile (1 20/x3 the rest is meh)
    3) The named versions of throwing weapons are not good enough.
    4) Insightful Strikes/Damage does not work on thrown weapons.
    5) There are only few 'special' thrown weapons on the market (smiters/disruptors/paralyzers etc) that I have been able to find.

    After running basic numbers I came back to the same conclusions:
    If I go for strength, either making a bowonk or a 2HF will do more damage and be easier to maintain.
    If I go for something else (Int for example), an x-bow is easier and better damage output.

    That being said...I have a few returning weapons stocked in a bank on one of my toons. And a build similar to yours on paper. Might, just might give it a go sometime. But just throwing is not good enough for my playstyle and expectations at the moment.

  9. #9
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    I seem to recall one of my mad experiments showed rune-arms tacking on damage to throwing weapons as well. Something to perhaps consider.

  10. #10
    Community Member Arkat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunga View Post
    Awesome!!1!

    ...
    You're the best!!!

    ...

  11. #11
    Community Member Arkat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scraap View Post
    I seem to recall one of my mad experiments showed rune-arms tacking on damage to throwing weapons as well. Something to perhaps consider.
    Hmmm...but that would require taking Arty levels which, at least right now, seems sub-optimal considering my build's goals. I just don't think I can get away with dropping the Pally levels.

  12. #12
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Thrower builds used to be legit back in the cap was 10-12.

    Can aways keep a few 2 handers around in case you feel the need to melee.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #13
    Community Member Brennie's Avatar
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    Is it possible at all to work in 6 monk levels, and a focus on shuriken? It will limit your weapon options (including noxious fang), but between 10k stars (aka Shuriken manyshot!) and Shuriken Expertise (Which doesn't function WITH 10k stars is my understanding, but should function between cooldowns. I coudl also be entirely wrong about), shuriken seems like the clear leader of throwing weapons, by such a large margin it feels like comparing Heavy Crossbows to Heavy Repeaters.

    Obviously this suggestion would require basically reworking the build altogether. Would need halfway decent dex for ranged feats and Shuriken Expertise, would need good strength for... y'know, strength, and maxed wisdom and probably zen archery to take full advantage of 10k stars. Armor would have to change and shields would have to be abandoned, but you could get a seeker kama of sneak attack for the offhand, or some such thing.

    Also, spelltouched shuriken, for sure! Twice as much double rainbow = QUADRUPLE RAINBOW! And have you seen this Whirling Wrist? 60% increase to thrown attack speeds? Holy Heck, that's HUGE! (Translates into about 40% attack speed increase if the reload thingy applies to throwers, but still that's about two and a half the benefit of Haste! That alone has made me consider a 10kstars shuriken thrower...)

  14. #14
    Community Member Arkat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Thrower builds used to be legit back in the cap was 10-12.

    Can aways keep a few 2 handers around in case you feel the need to melee.
    I definitely plan to do that Chai, especially while leveling through the Heroic levels. Thanks.


    Quote Originally Posted by Brennie View Post
    Is it possible at all to work in 6 monk levels, and a focus on shuriken? It will limit your weapon options (including noxious fang), but between 10k stars (aka Shuriken manyshot!) and Shuriken Expertise (Which doesn't function WITH 10k stars is my understanding, but should function between cooldowns. I coudl also be entirely wrong about), shuriken seems like the clear leader of throwing weapons, by such a large margin it feels like comparing Heavy Crossbows to Heavy Repeaters.

    Obviously this suggestion would require basically reworking the build altogether. Would need halfway decent dex for ranged feats and Shuriken Expertise, would need good strength for... y'know, strength, and maxed wisdom and probably zen archery to take full advantage of 10k stars. Armor would have to change and shields would have to be abandoned, but you could get a seeker kama of sneak attack for the offhand, or some such thing.

    Also, spelltouched shuriken, for sure! Twice as much double rainbow = QUADRUPLE RAINBOW! And have you seen this Whirling Wrist? 60% increase to thrown attack speeds? Holy Heck, that's HUGE! (Translates into about 40% attack speed increase if the reload thingy applies to throwers, but still that's about two and a half the benefit of Haste! That alone has made me consider a 10kstars shuriken thrower...)
    Thanks Brennie, I hadn't known about spelltouched shuriken before you mentioned them. I'll take a look.

    BTW...I did mention Whirling Wrists in my OP.

  15. #15
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    I guess it bears mentioning that monk wind stance's attack speed bonus applies to surikens as well. Also you do not need zen archery for shuriken 10k stars. And as suriken expertise is based of dex and is continuos I would reccomend having primary dex, secondary wis tertiary strength/con. That is what I did anyway.
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  16. #16
    Community Member Brennie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkat View Post
    Thanks Brennie, I hadn't known about spelltouched shuriken before you mentioned them. I'll take a look.

    BTW...I did mention Whirling Wrists in my OP.
    "Spelltouched" is inherent to all the Eveningstar Challenge throwing weapons, i believe, incase you decide to stick with your original plan (In which case shurikens aren't a very good choice of weaponry). u15 or 15.1 is fixing the tactical bonuses rolling on those items as well, however it is still a lottery just to get half decent ones. Good thing we can decon them now!

    RE: Whirling Wrists - To be fair, your op is huge, soi skimmed bits. And whirling wrists is exciting and new and its a MASSIVE OVERCOMPESATION for how poor throwing weapons are in general . Imagine a tier 3 destiny effect that increased melee attack speeds by 60%... that would be the most ridiculously overpowered/absolutely manadatory twistable in the game!

    Quote Originally Posted by Havok.cry View Post
    I guess it bears mentioning that monk wind stance's attack speed bonus applies to surikens as well. Also you do not need zen archery for shuriken 10k stars. And as suriken expertise is based of dex and is continuos I would reccomend having primary dex, secondary wis tertiary strength/con. That is what I did anyway.
    While Dex does increase Shuriken Expertise chance of proccing "doublestrike", wisdom increases 10k stars chance of proccing multiple stars. Further, shuriken expertise increases shuriken DPS by 1% per point of dex (?I think?), while wisdom increases DPS of 10k stars by 5% per point of wisdom modifier, or 2.5% per point of wisdom. With it being able to be up half the time, its an overall DPS increase of about 1.25% per point of wisdom, making it somewhat better than dex.

    Of course, if going for a shuriken expertise + 10k stars monk, one would want as much in both dex and wisdom as possible, so Zen Archery may end up being a wash anyway.

  17. #17
    Community Member Arkat's Avatar
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    Now we're starting to move away from a STR-based toon. I'm going to be pretty much against that but thanks anyway Havok.cry.

  18. #18
    Hero Marcus-Hawkeye's Avatar
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    I've been working out a thrower build for the past few years. There wasn't a lot of info available about it when I started really so I had to learn stuff on the go. Currently been rerolled 6 times (started before TR came around)she's 20 fighter halfling kensai and it works pretty well considering how incredibly undergeared she is. I like your build so far and will check back in the future in case you post about how it works out for you. I love the build and had a lot of fun playing her.

    Currently I'm TRing another character to become a thrower build some time in the future. but by the time she gets there I'm sure there will major changes to the game. I look forward to hearing how this goes...

  19. #19
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Big disclaimer that I appreciate you're only after easy to acquire gear, and these might seem a bit / very grindy.

    Goggles: Blindness Immunity of True Seeing Cannith Crafted
    Ring: Signet of the Shining Sun (CHA +7, Insightful WIS +2, Superior Healing Lore)

    Both don't seem too thrilling and you don't otherwise have items for sneak attack.

    I'd be tempted to go Tharne's goggles and Ring of the Stalker for +13 SA damage per hit. You could even slot CHA+6 and Exc CHA+1 into the Stalker Ring to maintain the CHA saves.

    What might be actually helpful to you is that I think Shot on the Run is still bugged and does literally nothing at the moment.
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