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  1. #1
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Default Dex-Based Drow Rogue Executioner

    20 Rogue, 5 Epic (Shadowdancer ED)


    Starting Stats (28 point build) (if 32 point build, revel in a socially acceptable score of 14 Con):

    STR 8
    DEX 20 (+6 Level-Ups, +3 Tome, +2 Drow Enh, +3 Rogue Enh, +8 Item, +3 Insight Item, +1 Exc Item, +6 Shadowdancer) = 52 (+2 Ship Buff because you will never die) = 54 (+ even more if you want to use twists on it - I would probably be more creative)
    CON 12
    INT 16
    WIS 8
    CHA 10


    Skills:
    UMD, DD, Search, Spot, OL, Hide, MS, Balance, Jump, Tumble, Diplomacy. If you use a +2 Int tome add Bluff or something.


    Feats:
    1 - TWF, [Shuriken Expertise free from Drow]
    3 - Toughness
    6 - Precision
    9 - ITWF
    12 - IC: Piercing
    15 - GTWF
    18 - Quickdraw
    21 - Improved Sneak Attack
    24 - IC: Slashing (solely for epic Midnight's Greetings)

    Quickdraw and Shuriken Expertise from Drow give you a second form of attack. You will often (just over 50% of the time) fire multiple shurikens. Use spell-touched shurikens for their random effects to complement your huge Sneak Attack damage.

    I would have loved to have squeezed in Rapid Shot for even more shuriken speed, but Point Blank Shot is a pre-req, and you just don't have 2 feats up your sleeve without gimping the melee aspect for far more than the bonus shuriken speed is worth.

    Re: no Weapon Finesse. There are no weapons in the game that use Dex as Damage, but not Attack. So, for Weapon Finesse to be useful, you'd be giving up +26 damage per hit to use whatever it is. That would be a mistake that would ruin the good name of sub 14 Con Drow Rogues everywhere.


    PRE:
    Assassin. Don't think twice. Your Assassinate DC will even work occasionally with some gearing.


    Capstone:
    Deadly Shadows. Despite Cheat Death's +2 Dex, it's just not worth 4d6 damage/hit.


    Levelling (I am Australian. The extra 'L' stays.):

    At level 4, equip some combination of Tiefling Master Assassin's Blades and Sky Pirate's Daggers from 3BC. These are pretty good and okay respectively, both being keen and using Dex as both to-hit and damage. The tiefling blade has wounding, +1 base crit-range and 1d6 poison damage while the dagger has a x3 crit multiplier instead of the regular x2

    At level 14, equip Treason if you have one.

    At level 16, equip 2 Envenomed Blades

    At level 20, equip Epic Envenomed Blades.

    For bosses and assassinations you want a pair of or single epic Midnight's Greetings - ideally slotted with Good DR Bypass.


    Epic Destiny:

    Shadowdancer has an insta-kill ability based on dex - Executioner's Strike / Executioner's Shot. This should work well with either Shurikens or the eEBs.

    Shiradi may also be fun to try for a while, but is a little gimp given this build has neither IPS or spells.

    Ultimately, you want to twist in Whirling Wrists from Shiradi for 60% faster throwing speed.

    The 'can't fail reflex save on a 1' thing also looks pimp since with your Dex and proper gearing your reflex save will be bonkers.

    Damage:
    Sustained minimum 52 Dex for +26 damage on the few weapons you'll be using will keep you competitive with your STR based counterparts. You also have shurikens, a cool insta-death effect and panache. Lots of panache.


    Final notes:
    GET THE WEAPONS FIRST. At the least get 2 of the cove weapons, and 2 regular envenomed blades.

    Your strength is awful. Lower carrying capacity and vulnerability to rays of enfeeblement and symbols of weakness are something you'll need to stay aware of. It's not a deal-breaker, since casters exist in this game and somehow manage to live. Just do what you can, carry a stack of lesser restore pots and do wear a +6 or higher Strength item once they're available.

    DR breaking on bosses is your Achilles' Heel. Socket your weapons with good if you don't run Devil Assault much. Hope for an arti. Be unapologetic since you'll be doing very reasonable SA damage anyway.

    Your other Achilles' Heel is 12 Con and d6 hit dice. Just gear properly and you'll be fine. That means GFL, Toughness, good Con item(s), and +45 HP Greensteel. Keep upping your Con items until you're comfortable or in +8 regular, +3 insightful, +1 exceptional.

    Your third Achilles' Heel on this three footed monstrosity is enemies with immunity to SA. Undead (and Elementals?) smell. Do what you can. Dual finesse light maces of disruption or smiting might be optimal. *Shudder*
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  2. #2
    Community Member Rogann's Avatar
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    Love these builds. Str is so low you don't even need to bother with DR breakers. Saves time and money.

    Not only will you waste 60 tokens slotting two outdated weapons hoping for an artificer. But when no artificer shows up you pull the "Oh well, I do so much sneak attack damage already. What's another 40 dmg per swing?" excuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    DEX 20 (+6 Shadowdancer)
    You're seriously wasting half of your points for the +6 dex?
    Last edited by Rogann; 09-10-2012 at 01:43 AM.

  3. #3
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogann View Post
    Love these builds. Base dmg is so low you don't even need to bother with DR breakers. Saves time and money.
    I'm curious how the equivalent of a +10 weapon with a +26 attack and damage MOD and disintegration is terrible. I concede it needs an arti to break DR, but even without it, I don't think you can justify your dismissiveness.

    EDIT: I meant to say in the OP that there are now ED twists that open up avenues to breaking specific DRs as well. Stay Good and Gird Against Demons for Good or Cold Iron respectively at tier 4 are expensive and obviously mutually exclusive, but I could see them as being the ultimate answer to the DR problems if you were willing to do the destinies grind.

    EDIT: Yes. I am using half of my points for the +6 Dex.
    Last edited by Deathdefy; 09-10-2012 at 01:44 AM.
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  4. #4
    Community Member destiny4405's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    I'm curious how the equivalent of a +10 weapon with a +26 attack and damage MOD and disintegration is terrible. I concede it needs an arti to break DR, but even without it, I don't think you can justify your dismissiveness.
    my rogue has 8 or 9 weapon sets. focusing on one weapon won't get you far. good thing you spec'ed in shurikens also.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    EDIT: I meant to say in the OP that there are now ED twists that open up avenues to breaking specific DRs as well. Stay Good and Gird Against Demons for Good or Cold Iron respectively at tier 4 are expensive and obviously mutually exclusive, but I could see them as being the ultimate answer to the DR problems if you were willing to do the destinies grind.
    stay good works only on ranged. you plan to use shurikens against bosses?
    Jesus saves. Everyone else rounds to nearest 5%.

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  5. #5
    Community Member Aganthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post

    Re: no Weapon Finesse. There are no weapons in the game that use Dex as Damage, but not Attack. So, for Weapon Finesse to be useful, you'd be giving up +26 damage per hit to use whatever it is. That would be a mistake that would ruin the good name of sub 14 Con Drow Rogues everywhere.
    No but you really need weapon finesse for your to-hit... You won't be hitting much with such a low STR...
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  6. #6
    Community Member .Revenga.'s Avatar
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    Waw.
    I'm really hoping you are a troll and just want to make people choke in their drinks when they read your build.

    This build fails in every aspect, why don't you go wisdom based? spot OP.

    Two IC feats? what?
    quickdraw? for what? swapping from emg's to shurikens quickly? shurikens? what? really?
    Taking +6dex from shadowdancer? what?
    Executioners strike is useless, i hope you know it has a 30second cooldown and only a CHANCE to proc an instakill effect (with save).
    Taking diplo over bluff with the shadowdancer destiny? what?

    You don't spec for damage, you don't spec for assasinate, you don't spec for survivability, you're not even speccing for AC, you do spec for a single weapon set.. what exactly are you hoping to achieve?

    There is an character somewhere with this build? lol
    Last edited by .Revenga.; 09-10-2012 at 08:24 AM.
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  7. #7
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by destiny4405 View Post
    stay good works only on ranged. you plan to use shurikens against bosses?
    Fair point - I had genuinely forgotten that. I suppose it's either Devil's Assault crystals for LoB/Shroud/VoD/ToD or ensure there is an artificer about then.

    Actual end-game (EEs and CiTW) apart from LoB isn't affected by DR in any event. I think Gird Against Demons for Cold Iron may have to be a permanent twist though.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aganthor View Post
    No but you really need weapon finesse for your to-hit... You won't be hitting much with such a low STR...
    All of the weapons to be used have DEX as both to-hit and damage.
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  8. #8
    Community Member akash's Avatar
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    Dump Toughness and take Rapid Shot, it stacks with Quick Draw. Moar DPS for Shurikens. Honestly if I ever wanted to create a Shuriken specilist, I would make a DEX based Halfling Monk instead of Rouge.

  9. #9
    Community Member Feralthyrtiaq's Avatar
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    Default Some good ideas but...

    Bluff is just an afterthought for this build...

    I would not take an assassin (or any rogue for that matter) seriously that did not invest in Bluff...

    Just like I secretly sneer to builds that dump Spot but have trap skills...

    Just Plain Silly....

    But I would still welcome you in my party

  10. #10
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by .Revenga. View Post
    Waw.
    I'm really hoping you are a troll and just want to make people choke in their drinks when they read your build.
    Wow. Hi?

    Quote Originally Posted by .Revenga. View Post
    Waw.
    Two IC feats? what?
    IC: Feats, basically one for trash weapons (eEBs) and one for bosses (eMGs).

    I would have preferred to take Rapid Shot, but it has PBS as a pre-req and I definitely don't have 2 spare feats.

    Quote Originally Posted by .Revenga. View Post
    quickdraw? for what? swapping from emg's to shurikens quickly? shurikens? what? really?
    Quickdraw increases the attack speed of thrown weapons. The other perks are nice too.

    Quote Originally Posted by .Revenga. View Post
    Taking +6dex from shadowdancer? what?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by .Revenga. View Post
    Executioners strike is useless, i hope you know it has a 30second cooldown and only a CHANCE to proc an instakill effect (with save).
    Yes, apart from the 'useless'.

    Quote Originally Posted by .Revenga. View Post
    Taking diplo over bluff with the shadowdancer destiny? what?
    I'll have both maxxed since I'll swap to bluff after 10 jump. I just don't rate bluff though. Bluff will be maxxed if that's going to be an ongoing critique from posters.

    Diplo is to keep Shiradi as an option, though it's hardly integral to the build.

    Quote Originally Posted by .Revenga. View Post
    You don't spec for damage, you don't spec for assasinate, you don't spec for survivability, you're not even speccing for AC, you do spec for a single weapon set.. what exactly are you hoping to achieve?
    I do spec for damage. You're welcome to query that, but I presented where I think it comes from clearly in the OP.

    Assassinate should be workable on casters. While I'm 20 + 6 = 26 - 16 = 10 points off a max int build assuming identical gear, that's only 5 DC in the end, which isn't useless.
    EDIT: That's incorrect; it could be up to 8DC if they were to commit the cardinal sin of using ED points for a stat on a rogue.

    Survivablity should be very reasonable. I'm not going to invest in con at the expense of dex (given the build) or int (given I think assassinate is important). No-fail anything reflex saves are worth something. If you imply <600 HP is fail on epic elite, I'd query your playstyle.

    AC? Really?

    I expect to achieve competitive dps, workable assassinate unlike some str builds, and decent survivability with an unparalleled reflex save.

    Honestly, I'm stunned by the view on these forums that Str based rogues that dump int are a good thing. Just make a barb if you want to bring 0 functionality beyond dps?
    Last edited by Deathdefy; 09-10-2012 at 09:15 AM.
    Khyber: Aggrim (Completionist!)
    In Von 3 the breakables in the Troll Ambassador optional room are slow to get to and unnecessary for ransack.
    Blind insta-kills floating eye balls.

  11. #11
    Community Member Feralthyrtiaq's Avatar
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    Default Just to be clear...

    Bluff is such a powerful usefull skill for Rogues that I was surprised at it's underplayed value in your original post considering the thought put into it.

  12. #12
    Community Member .Revenga.'s Avatar
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    There is just no reason to go full-****** dex like that, just like there is no reason to go full-****** str based.

    You sacrifice so much in order to make this build somewhat manageble, and what do you get out of it? excecutioners strike? i mean, a chance for an assasinate proc every 30 seconds is hardly something to make a build around.
    Shurikens? You will still do no damage with these, thrown weapons are a joke, maybe look into a monk with 10 000 stars.
    You have no versatility in weapon choice, you will have big problems with dr and might have to sacrifice even more epic destinies effects to make up for that, you sacrifice half of your destiny points, you sacrifice 2 feats, you commit to a subpar race, you don't go for a -full int i assasinate all trash- option, you don't gain any defensive advantages.

    The only thing you are really gaining, is a few points in damage and to hit IF you are able to use your chosen weapons. This is not worth it.
    Oh, and some more reflex save, like rogues need it. This is the only point where you will surpass other all round build rogues that have none of the disadvantages you are burdening yourself with.
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  13. #13
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by .Revenga. View Post
    There is just no reason to go full-****** dex like that, just like there is no reason to go full-****** str based.

    You sacrifice so much in order to make this build somewhat manageble, and what do you get out of it? excecutioners strike? i mean, a chance for an assasinate proc every 30 seconds is hardly something to make a build around.
    Shurikens? You will still do no damage with these, thrown weapons are a joke, maybe look into a monk with 10 000 stars.
    You have no versatility in weapon choice, you will have big problems with dr and might have to sacrifice even more epic destinies effects to make up for that, you sacrifice half of your destiny points, you sacrifice 2 feats, you commit to a subpar race, you don't go for a -full int i assasinate all trash- option, you don't gain any defensive advantages.

    The only thing you are really gaining, is a few points in damage and to hit IF you are able to use your chosen weapons. This is not worth it.
    Oh, and some more reflex save, like rogues need it. This is the only point where you will surpass other all round build rogues that have none of the disadvantages you are burdening yourself with.
    But it's all of those things... it's not full-****** str to get dps and eh to the rest. It's full-****** dex to get:
    1) Executioner's strike
    2) Good damage with chosen weapons (the chosen weapons are pretty fun ones)
    3) No-fail reflex save - in my experience rogues aren't always saving. I'm hopeful I can get there, but am certain I couldn't without going close to full dex.
    4) Fun shuriken ranged back-up. It's not a 'shuriken' build; they're very much a plan B, but a decent one for rapid weird debuffs with the advent of Spelltouched.


    To me, the costs are:
    1) Trouble with breaking DR on a handful of bosses. I think this problem is massively overstated given the current end-game.
    2) Some ED points. If this is such a deal-breaker, don't take some a point of Dex or four. Losing some Dex isn't the end of the world as my opting for the Deadly Shadow capstone indicates.
    3) Usable, but not guaranteed assassinate. I can deal with that given the perks of better standing damage, the other insta-kill and the reflex save.

    If you're convinced the DR problem is game-breaking, then fair enough. My opinion obviously differs.

    Everyone likes bluff hey. I will try again I guess.
    Last edited by Deathdefy; 09-10-2012 at 10:00 AM.
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  14. #14
    Community Member .Revenga.'s Avatar
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    Your point 2 and 4 are both flavor arguments.

    Going for fully for exc. strike and not full for assasinate makes no sense, as assasinate has half the cooldown, gives you an instakill proc 100% and can hit multiple targets.

    Getting a no fail reflex save on a rogue is a challenge, but you certainly don't need 50dex for it. Also, if it's lower then the no-fail threshold, it's not really an issue, you got improved evasion for a reason, a reflex save fail is not what will get you killed on a rogue, better look into your will save.

    Epic destinies are incredible powerful. They add so much strenght to characters that alot of previous gear/past lives etc become somewhat unnoticable, spending half of that just to get +3 modifier is.. not optimal.
    Last edited by .Revenga.; 09-10-2012 at 10:21 AM.
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  15. #15
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by .Revenga. View Post
    Your point 2 and 4 are both flavor arguments.

    Going for fully for exc. strike and not full for assasinate makes no sense, as assasinate has half the cooldown, gives you an instakill proc 100% and can hit multiple targets.

    Getting a no fail reflex save on a rogue is a challenge, but you certainly don't need 50dex for it. Also, if it's lower then the no-fail threshold, it's not really an issue, you got improved evasion for a reason, a reflex save fail is not what will get you killed on a rogue, better look into your will save.

    Epic destinies are incredible powerful. They add so much strenght to characters that alot of previous gear/past lives etc become somewhat unnoticable, spending half of that just to get +3 modifier is.. not optimal.
    To my mind, going fully for assassinate is a good build, unlike the militantly advocated pure strength builds that have been prevalent for a while. It is, however, a different build that wouldn't get any of the exclusive benefits I outlined in the previous post. As I've said, my assassinate will still be usable, and I gain a bunch of other perks.

    No-fail reflex save on a 1 is way cooler than relying on improved evasion and potentially still being knocked down. Not knowing the no-fail reflex save cut-off is a problem, but if I ever work it out, and am above that cut-off without much effort, maybe I'll refine the ED Dex point spendage down.

    Agreed the will save has issues, but it's a rogue + will save isn't that big a deal. Avoid giant disco balls, get prot from evil clickie and FoM via boots/cookie or spell = golden.

    I was unclear on point 2. I should have just written: good dps, which obviously isn't flavor. It is hopefully clear from the con list that in a handful of raids that good dps is conditional on the presence of an artificer or crystal from Devil Assault.

    Point 4 isn't flavor either. As one example that applies in many EE red name situations, debuffing fat yuan-ti in Don't Drink the Water with a spelltouched shuriken is more useful to do initially than purely beating them up. Frankly, I'm afraid of a nerf so I'm not going to go into more detail, but suffice to say I consider it a non-flavor benefit worth spending multiple feats on.

    I think my lack of clarity on exactly how I'd spend my Shadowdancer destiny points is a problem. I'll mull it over and post back here at some point. It's hard to have an productive discussion on whether this build sub-optimally overspends in ED dex points when I haven't made clear what it'd be missing out on.

    I'm going to sleep now, but am appreciative of the constructive criticism.
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  16. #16
    Community Member destiny4405's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    IC: Feats, basically one for trash weapons (eEBs) and one for bosses (eMGs).
    epic envenomed blades for trash and epic midnight greetings for bosses?

    i think you know less of rogues then a person who made esos assassin. maybe if you present it in video format, but i don't think you leveled to 20 at all, or tried any of those skills you claim to be good.
    Jesus saves. Everyone else rounds to nearest 5%.

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  17. #17
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Deathdefy, i don't know if you ever saw this thread, but i have a link to it here. It's a general discussion about drow. I especially want you to look at post #90, on page 5. Read on a bit more from there if you are interested. Understand that i feel your pain. You've thought this build through a lot more than i did. Easiest thing to do is just tell people it's for flavor, and they will get off your back to some degree. I like to think of it more as an experiment, because i think in most cases it will work just fine.

    As you say, DR on a couple of bosses isn't that big of a deal, especially if you are able to get sneak damage. Give it a try, if it doesn't work as well as you hope, oh well, there's always tr.

    Here is the link: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=390136&page=5

  18. #18
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by destiny4405 View Post
    epic envenomed blades for trash and epic midnight greetings for bosses?

    i think you know less of rogues then a person who made esos assassin. maybe if you present it in video format, but i don't think you leveled to 20 at all, or tried any of those skills you claim to be good.
    "Yes" re: weapons, "No" re: various forms of I don't know what I'm talking about, and "What?" re: video format.

    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    Deathdefy, i don't know if you ever saw this thread, but i have a link to it here. It's a general discussion about drow. I especially want you to look at post #90, on page 5. Read on a bit more from there if you are interested. Understand that i feel your pain. You've thought this build through a lot more than i did. Easiest thing to do is just tell people it's for flavor, and they will get off your back to some degree. I like to think of it more as an experiment, because i think in most cases it will work just fine.

    As you say, DR on a couple of bosses isn't that big of a deal, especially if you are able to get sneak damage. Give it a try, if it doesn't work as well as you hope, oh well, there's always tr.

    Here is the link: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=390136&page=5
    Hahahaha (re: post #90)! EDIT: Read the rest of the thread too. I don't usually consider drow optimal either, but given max Dex + Shortsword bonuses it's hard not to.

    I thought about telling people it's for flavor, but it's too much of an easy way out when I don't believe it is a flavor build. I was bothered by a max int assassin build being torn apart by the weirdly aggressive rogue forum community a while back and knew what I'd be getting into.
    Last edited by Deathdefy; 09-10-2012 at 11:01 PM.
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  19. #19
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    The key part of the Executioners Strike/Shot is the / as they are exclusive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Feather_of_Sun View Post
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  20. #20
    Community Member Ragnar7's Avatar
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    These kinds of posts are the reason people remove rogues from their lfm's.

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