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  1. #41
    Community Member Potta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seldarin View Post
    At one stage it reached a point where some individuals would request me to cure poison, cure disease, remove curse, blindness, etc, etc.
    How terrible that must have been for you. Truly the victim complex evident in this thread is justified if you occasionally get players with the GALL to ask for a cure poison.

    Maybe they're new and weren't aware of the potions. Maybe they were in a rush before the quest started and didn't have time to pick them up, or maybe they didn't realize they'd run low, then ran out. This sort of thing is set straight by communication. If you have the spell but not the resources to spare, say so and explain why. If you do and you're withholding out of spite due to some imagined slight, that you're being put-upon, then you're not helping your group. I have trouble understanding the cost/benefit analysis that goes on in the minds of people that withhold spells like these. It's like they imagine they can do more DPS with those 20-30 spell points than another character is capable of doing for the next several minutes. In which case they're either deluded or ridiculously overpowered.

    Is it annoying when people don't use/don't know about/forget their potions? Of course it is. Is it indicative of an attitude that says you're a "hjealbot" who shouldn't do anything other than follow and heal? Not in the slightest. Perhaps were you see conspiracy and mal-intent, I see ignorance and laziness.

    Anyone who thinks that a divines only job in a party is to heal them is nothing short of a moron.
    Not going to dispute that. What's in dispute is the frequency with which the morons who apparently do believe it present themselves. We have two widely disparate estimates of their frequency, to the point that statistically, there is likely no truth to be found in the middle ground. It's my belief that players of Divines frequently develop a god complex and it manifests itself in threads like this which espouse a barely concealed contempt of any character build that isn't capable of self-sufficiency. They're so used to getting praise for doing an easy job adequately that advice or criticism when they fail to perform is read as melee trying to dictate their playstyle.

    You say you havent experienced this much, I say that you either A. Havent been playing very long, and/or B. Mostly stick with friends/guildies.
    Wrong and wrong. As I have said before. In future, I would recommend that you avoid arguments wherein you attempt to teach me about myself.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potta View Post
    And here we have it. The OP returns and proves my first point in this thread. That Divines are more often the ones to dictate build choices to others.

    "You shouldn't be pure fighter/barb, that's gimp!"

    Well, considering that they're both viable builds for DPS/tanking, the only way they'd be considered "gimp" is in the inability to heal themselves. Which, with a good healer backing them up, is not an issue.

    I think OP, that your issue is that you're a bad healer who blames deaths in his party on the fact that other people aren't doing your job for you.
    next time you quote me try to use the whole sentence rather then edit it to suit your BS. What are you a tabloid hack reporter in RL?

  3. #43
    Community Member Saravis's Avatar
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    OP, you forgot "He cast their heathen souls into the raging infernos of hell."

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    I dont play a healer, I dont know any who do in fact, I play a cleric, I heal those who have proven their worth and only those as most clerics I know do, In pugs I lead I only state BYOHs, and no zerging.
    It sounds like you tend to only group with experienced players or guildies. As someone who pugs a lot with new players, I'll heal everyone in the group until they prove that they are not worth it.
    Refusing to heal another party member simply because you have never played with them before is not something that I've ever seen a healer do to be honest. What do you require people to do to prove their worth to you?

    There is no healer class, that is the first thing you need to learn before you can expect to be given any semblance of respect.
    No. Healer is a role, just like Trapper, and several classes can perform it.
    However, I can't help but think that when someone says "healer", the word that you hear is "healbot".
    There is a huge gulf between the two meanings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Furare View Post
    I don't expect fighters and barbs to be able to heal themselves fully - some can, and that's great, but I don't expect it - but if they have no healing potions at all on them, then I'm going to start to wonder why. I have seriously seen people like this. Cure Serious Wounds potions aren't sufficient to completely heal your 200+HP L8 fighter, obviously, but they will top you up in between fights, or keep you alive for long enough for me to get to you or finish saving someone else's backside. Oh, and I don't carry status removal spells for you, so you had better have those potions or you will be wandering round diseased, cursed or poisoned for the duration of the effect. (Anyone can buy and use these potions; it's not my responsibility.)
    I would imagine that after their first few deaths/incapacitations, the new players who didn't know about these, may no longer be able to afford them due to repair bills. :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Fighter: tons of feats to spare versus every other class, so they could afford to pick up healing Dragonmarks if they cared. That's all in addition to what you already mentioned, Helf dilly, Silver Flame pots, etc..
    Dragon marks are racial-specific Only halflings are able to take the healing marks, and unless you are a caster who normally takes spell-boosting feats anyway, they are not that effective until later on. Helves are only available through Turbine points purchase generally.
    As long as the group doesn't mind the side effects, Silver Flame potions work. But they are generally only available later on in the game unless you are a TR.

    Really, the ONLY class that has a hard time trying to self-heal is Barbarian. And even they can use cheap hirelings.
    As far as I'm aware, a player who pulls out a hireling for their personal use without checking with the group is likely to be even more poorly regarded than one who asks for healing when they are low on health.

    When folks of any class choose not to use the healing options available to them, it's pretty hypocritical for them to criticize divines for doing the same.
    Indeed. Hence why it is important to distinguish between "Divine", which generally means a class that has the potential to heal and "healer" which is a specific role in a group.
    Assuming that a divine character will be a healer makes no more sense than assuming that a specialist class will be a trapper.

    No, a party of independant characters will do vastly more damage by doing damage in up to 6 places at once, rather than having to stick close to their hjealbot.
    If they are overpowering the quest to that extent, they probably don't need a healer anyway.

  5. #45
    Community Member Potta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    next time you quote me try to use the whole sentence rather then edit it to suit your BS. What are you a tabloid hack reporter in RL?
    You think the whole sentence provides a context that somehow makes your bias acceptable?

    Pure Fighters and Pure Barbs are gimp as can be, the cap stone a false goal to trick people into playing purist roles.
    Nope, sorry, doesn't help at all. It is still clearly evident of a bias you have against anyone who isn't self-sufficient. You by your own words, consider them gimps. This coming from the same person who claims to hate it when others tell him what to do, decides that he can tell melee how to build their characters instead. If these needy, dictating melee really did exist, all you've done is prove that you're just like them. Just as willing to dictate their builds and playstyle as they are to you.

    If I'm a "tabloid hack", then I shudder to think what you are, with your ridiculously melodramatic over interpreted victim complex put to bad prose and absurd similarities drawn between your imagined slights and the Civil Rights movement. Get a grip.

    LOL bud if that is how you play your on the wrong game, the one your trying to play is called WoW.
    No, the game I play is a team-based MMO with multiple classes who offer different abilities that synergise well with each other. You seem to be playing a different type of game that more resembles a single player experience, but for some reason still sticks you with other people also playing a single player game. Sounds strange really. I know which I think sounds more fun, but I'll accept that's subjective. What's not subjective though is which has more resemblance to the PnP roots you keep referencing. I'll give you a hint. PnP isn't a single player game.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khatzhas View Post
    Interesting. What do you in, for example, the Sands quests when someone in your group doesn't have a stack? Just try to heal through the Healing Curse?
    Let them die so the curse goes away. If they cannot prepare for the quest as I have had to do, then tough the best teaching environment is one where your mistake costs you.

    Healing is not just keeping hit points in the positive. I don't see any problem with party members requesting removal of status effects. Of course I might say no, because it isn't necessary (Radiant bursts mean that poisons/diseases don't actually cause many problems), but if the rogue gets cursed if can bork up your chances of getting past the traps.
    Unless I know I will need the SP or Turns I'd spend removing it, it beats just waiting around until the effect fades.
    That is why pots are available in the vendors and for cheap! Buy 20 for each quest and you will more than likely have 18 left over. After a bit of time you will get a full stack of each, normally by level 7.

    How do you handle keeping yourself healed under heavy damage in-combat? If there are more tricks to it, I'm happy to learn.
    DR/PRR
    AC
    Blur
    Haste


    I've not been here since launch, so maybe that is it. I've been playing healers on Thelanis, Sarlona and Ghallanda , so it is possible that server attitudes are different. In the years that I have been playing, I've been almost exclusively pugging, but I have yet to be told that my only purpose is to make the melees look good.
    No one said that it was your only purpose to make the melees look good, what was said is that there is a fair number that if you are not acting as a hire would complain and make the quest difficult for all those involved.

    If you are not seeing this behavior, it is because you have failed to understand the true power of a divine and that power is not being a healbot or status remover.
    By Whom?
    I am sure it is not hard to read this thread and figure out who is saying that there is never melees demanding that a player cleric being told to be a good little hireling.

  7. #47
    Community Member Potta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mubjon View Post
    Let them die so the curse goes away. If they cannot prepare for the quest as I have had to do, then tough the best teaching environment is one where your mistake costs you.
    Hurts you and the rest of your party too, since you lose 10% XP from Flawless Victory. It also costs SP to have them raised, or time to run them to a shrine. And if they're a rogue and traps are between you and the shrine, you're even worse off. You're also mistaken about the best teaching environment, or our school systems would still be implementing corporal punishment. It was determined years ago that positive reinforcement is superior to punishment when you do something wrong. You think you'll convince a player to take advice from someone who deliberately lets them die and seems to go out of their way to be condescending? If anything, they'll chalk the experience up to thinking you're just a prat. If "teaching" was truly your objective, it'd be better served by being friendly, offering advice and helping your party out. People are far more likely to imitate things they like, and if they like you, they'll be more likely to imitate and become more self-sufficient.

    Of course, that is if teaching was actually your goal. It sounds to me like being petty and spiteful is more likely. In which case, you're doing a great job already.

    DR/PRR
    AC
    Blur
    Haste
    That doesn't answer his question. He asked how you healed from heavy damage in combat, not how you prevented damage. Your non-answer doesn't even have the distinction of being complete either, since it completely ignores spell damage.


    No one said that it was your only purpose to make the melees look good, what was said is that there is a fair number that if you are not acting as a hire would complain and make the quest difficult for all those involved.
    No, sorry, that is exactly what is being claimed in this thread. Unless you're being facetious and claiming a re-statement of the argument in different terms is not what was said. This thread isn't just complaints about people not acting like a "good little hireling", it's also laced with complaints from people who claim that melee are telling them to stay back and not waste spell points on non-healing spells. It is entirely fair for the person you quote to restate this as their only purpose being to "make the melees look good", and disingenuous for you to claim otherwise. Furthermore, you seem to have no problem making the quest more difficult for all those involved when you refuse out of spite disguised as "learning experiences" to heal/cure members of your party leading to their deaths.

  8. #48
    Community Member Furare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khatzhas View Post
    I would imagine that after their first few deaths/incapacitations, the new players who didn't know about these, may no longer be able to afford them due to repair bills. :-)
    People always trot out the "new player" thing, but that's kinda disingenuous, really. I do explain things to people who are new. There are also people who aren't new who have these expectations, people who should know better. By the time you are running L12 content you should have enough money for those pots. They don't cost that much!
    Liseyda on Khyber: TR3 Elf Paladin (L18).

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potta View Post
    Hurts you and the rest of your party too, since you lose 10% XP from Flawless Victory. It also costs SP to have them raised, or time to run them to a shrine. And if they're a rogue and traps are between you and the shrine, you're even worse off. You're also mistaken about the best teaching environment, or our school systems would still be implementing corporal punishment. It was determined years ago that positive reinforcement is superior to punishment when you do something wrong. You think you'll convince a player to take advice from someone who deliberately lets them die and seems to go out of their way to be condescending? If anything, they'll chalk the experience up to thinking you're just a prat. If "teaching" was truly your objective, it'd be better served by being friendly, offering advice and helping your party out. People are far more likely to imitate things they like, and if they like you, they'll be more likely to imitate and become more self-sufficient.
    And the failure to properly spank children is what is causing the problems in today's society.

    I have no problem helping people that wish to learn learn, I do have a problem when the comment out of their mouth after walking into a trap while the rogue is searching for the box is why did you not heal me! you suck.

    Or if after they are killed because they have no AC, no means to mitigate damage, and use weapons or abilities that cause them to take dmg. And using a scroll to raise them, they do not wait to be healed to full and run off to die in a single hit and then complain. Well I have no use for them.

    Or if they complain that "the cleric is in melee! Stay back" while running an aura that is mitigating damage and bursts between influxes of spike damage. That tends to make me sit back and laugh as they die.

    Of course, that is if teaching was actually your goal. It sounds to me like being petty and spiteful is more likely. In which case, you're doing a great job already.
    The only goal I see from you is to be a troll and claim that others are the reason that melees are behaving as if they are the masters and the Divines are their hirelings and slaves.


    That doesn't answer his question. He asked how you healed from heavy damage in combat, not how you prevented damage. Your non-answer doesn't even have the distinction of being complete either, since it completely ignores spell damage.
    Sure it does, because as a Divine and caster I take out the casters before they can even cast a spell in most cases, unless of course the idiotic melee ran half way across the map and ran up the Dungeon alert to red before dying.



    No, sorry, that is exactly what is being claimed in this thread. Unless you're being facetious and claiming a re-statement of the argument in different terms is not what was said. This thread isn't just complaints about people not acting like a "good little hireling", it's also laced with complaints from people who claim that melee are telling them to stay back and not waste spell points on non-healing spells. It is entirely fair for the person you quote to restate this as their only purpose being to "make the melees look good", and disingenuous for you to claim otherwise. Furthermore, you seem to have no problem making the quest more difficult for all those involved when you refuse out of spite disguised as "learning experiences" to heal/cure members of your party leading to their deaths.
    No the thread is about the behavior of a segment of the melee population that look at a Cleric as nothing but a hjealer. It is you that is claiming that it does not happen, when there are more people in this thread saying they have experienced it first hand.

    They are making the quest more difficult by not being up to the task and causing the dungeon to scale to a point that they cannot make it through without a wheelchair.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Furare View Post
    People always trot out the "new player" thing, but that's kinda disingenuous, really. I do explain things to people who are new. There are also people who aren't new who have these expectations, people who should know better. By the time you are running L12 content you should have enough money for those pots. They don't cost that much!
    As I have said: I run with a lot of new players. Its cool that you are willing to explain and help them out if they don't actually know what they need to. It just wasn't the impression that your earlier statement gave.
    If someone has the wings by their name, or definitely knows the ropes, I'll assume they do have an idea of what is required. But in the Sands example, a lot of people in first life can hit there before they ever run into a mummy, and how to remove the curse. They also don't always have the same priorities and even if they do know that they need Remove Curse and Remove Disease potions for there, they may not realise quite how much of their potential funds they need to spend on them.
    The smilie was there to indicate that that point wasn't entirely serious. Just one of the drawbacks of text conversations.
    Last edited by Khatzhas; 09-10-2012 at 06:27 PM.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potta View Post
    You think the whole sentence provides a context that somehow makes your bias acceptable?



    Nope, sorry, doesn't help at all. It is still clearly evident of a bias you have against anyone who isn't self-sufficient. You by your own words, consider them gimps. This coming from the same person who claims to hate it when others tell him what to do, decides that he can tell melee how to build their characters instead. If these needy, dictating melee really did exist, all you've done is prove that you're just like them. Just as willing to dictate their builds and playstyle as they are to you.

    If I'm a "tabloid hack", then I shudder to think what you are, with your ridiculously melodramatic over interpreted victim complex put to bad prose and absurd similarities drawn between your imagined slights and the Civil Rights movement. Get a grip.



    No, the game I play is a team-based MMO with multiple classes who offer different abilities that synergise well with each other. You seem to be playing a different type of game that more resembles a single player experience, but for some reason still sticks you with other people also playing a single player game. Sounds strange really. I know which I think sounds more fun, but I'll accept that's subjective. What's not subjective though is which has more resemblance to the PnP roots you keep referencing. I'll give you a hint. PnP isn't a single player game.
    actually man one on one pre made modules have been published over the years, hell a few interesting attempts at DMless modules have even been made using things like DVDs and choose your own adventure type systems to let anyone who enjoys rolling the dice have the means to even when a group is in short supply.

    And good DMs who use story and well thought out encounters rarely leave a group together to face a big bad guy, most are one on one fights designed to give a player a chance to shine in the sun alone as a hero. Sometimes it may take several sessions for each to have that moment, but rarely does any one session go by where each felt like they where the reason the group survived.

    No matter what lies you wish to speak playing the game will always show the truth. I could log onto a brand new cleric right this minute and find a guy on his 2nd or later life playing a barb who would treat me like a nannybot who lives to serve. Anytime day or night i can find one. Finding people who make warriors capable of survival is a much more arduous task.

    But feel free to post all your characters and see how friendly people playing clerics are to you in the future. Since most who are part of the divine order seek to support each other we rarely aid those who turn their backs on us and seek to enslave us.

    Clerics walk hand in hand with the gawds, and thus have no equals. Seriously next you will try and say Judas could walk on the water right behind JC.

    Play a cleric and be one of the brotherhood or be among our enemies who through ignorance can sometimes be forgiven but knowingly trying to force us to play nanny will only have you find a zealot.

    This may surprise you but many who play clerics enjoy at least the soft RP of being such a divinely touched person.

    On a parting note, conan was probably not even a barbarian by DDO standards but more likely a ranger/fighter/rogue as he was quite skilled in stealth, thievery, seduction, woodcraft, and was considered an expert hunter with spear,sling, and traps. He also never lost his cool and always was tactical in his fighting even when alone against many in a savage frenzy he would use position and cover to reduce or outright negate the superior numbers pressing him. He also wasnt chaotic but actually very lawful but built around what one would call the babaric code of chivlary which REH did wright down and one can look up to see what he was thinking when he conceived of conan and how he lived his life. The man who ruled the greatest city in the world was not a man who lacked an understanding of law and order.
    Last edited by Karavek; 09-10-2012 at 06:43 PM.

  12. #52
    Community Member Potta's Avatar
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    Wha...? Brotherhood? Divine Order? Enslavement? Hand in hand..., no equals?

    Actually, nevermind. I didn't realize you were mentally unbalanced. I have a rule about debating crazy: don't do it. /ignored.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mubjon View Post
    DR/PRR
    AC
    Blur
    Haste
    And I thought my artificer has a lot of clickies. I'm assuming that guild ship buffs also play a large part in that as well?
    How do you actually deal with healing though? Or do you simply not do content where your damage intake in a fight is likely to be much higher than your health?

    No one said that it was your only purpose to make the melees look good, what was said is that there is a fair number that if you are not acting as a hire would complain and make the quest difficult for all those involved.

    If you are not seeing this behavior, it is because you have failed to understand the true power of a divine and that power is not being a healbot or status remover.
    OK. I'll bite. I have never been told that I'm only there to heal the melee. What is it about the true power of a divine that I have failed to understand?
    Because I know I'm not just a healbot. When I'm healing and have the power to spare, I'll be telling melee mobs to siddown and shuddap, dropping flaming rocks on casters, and punishing their leaders with divine radiance. Or I may simply be beating on them with the power of my faith infusing me and a big stick. Either way, I'll likely be right next to the melee, sustaining them with the positive energy that flows through me.
    My point is that in most cases, I can do this as well as keeping everyone alive and functioning. That is the difference between a healer and a healbot.
    So. What am I missing?

    I am sure it is not hard to read this thread and figure out who is saying that there is never melees demanding that a player cleric being told to be a good little hireling.
    Who?
    No. I am serious. As far as I can tell, no-one in this thread is claiming that. We may be saying that it hasn't happened to us yet, but I don't think that anyone has made the claim that it has never happened at all.
    So I would like you to back up this claim that you are making.
    Who is saying that please?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mubjon View Post
    The only goal I see from you is to be a troll and claim that others are the reason that melees are behaving as if they are the masters and the Divines are their hirelings and slaves.
    I believe that what is in contention is whether most melees actually do behave that way.

    Sure it does, because as a Divine and caster I take out the casters before they can even cast a spell in most cases, unless of course the idiotic melee ran half way across the map and ran up the Dungeon alert to red before dying.
    You are the melee. We're not talking about your divine here, we're talking about your self-sufficient characters who aren't divines.

    They are making the quest more difficult by not being up to the task and causing the dungeon to scale to a point that they cannot make it through without a wheelchair.
    The power differential between classes is a whole other can of worms that its probably best not to open up. It may be be a factor in causing resentment or whatever, but its not directly connected to the issue here.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potta View Post
    Wha...? Brotherhood? Divine Order? Enslavement? Hand in hand..., no equals?

    Actually, nevermind. I didn't realize you were mentally unbalanced. I have a rule about debating crazy: don't do it. /ignored.
    Lol ignore it all you wish but it wont change the facts. You see it anytime you play. If your even a splash cleric or fvs and post a byoh you often fill up nearly immediatly with fellow divine players, The groups never suffer,slow down, nor wipe because its like trying to fight a team of X men entirely composed of wolverine's. And if you had been around the forums long enough youd probably understand the brotherhood thing as since the first year when divine players started fighting against the bonds, they started feeling very fraternal to each other. We tend to see ourselves as one giant family and look at those new players being good little healbots like special needs cousins we need to protect from the abusive bullies who would treat them like less them human.

    Some of the best number cruncher achievement players over the years have proven that at least up until the latest major game changes any so called end game content in the game and any raid at max dif could have its healing needs easily managed by 2 competently played clerics with 12 lvls in their builds and the rest could be entirely combat focussed and they provided the rest of the team is actually competently played then there is very little real risk of failure.

    Now granted with power gamers, min max builds, and so much more even those extreme challenges where often looked at as trivial to such highly skilled players to the point the games over all balance spectrum is now out of whack.

    One topic always spills over into another just like the old code of DDO that causes endless buggery. But in the end free form build style is not a license to make a build that lacks any feature, DDO has evolved into a game where constant healing is a must, expecting it to come from any source but yourself is selfish play pure and simple.

    Being a pure fighter or pure barb gives little, but even so if you must play one the only 2 races to choose from are halfling and helf. Halfling rogue/fighter/barb builds with the dragonmark line rarely are seen as the mana sponges horc,dwarf,and WF ones seem to be, and yes fleshy wizards are generally seen as a waste now days to the point virtually all AM I encounter are warforged. PM naturally transcend the racial limitation and self heal and are thus loved especially in groups lacking a good healer as many PM are more then capable of tanking anything short of a pack of priest spamming light spells.

    Indeed we all have choices, many not really practical nor viable, lacking self healing tends to be a poor choice to have made imo when many options exist.

    As I have said I will heal those worth healing, otherwise my mana is for my own survival because if I fall then the group almost surely will if its a pug of unknowns. Show me a barb who self destructs in kamikaze mode to do his top DPS and need a nanny and Ill show you a dozen rogues who can do better DPS and fall back and heal up asap or take turns watching each others backs so no one gets stuck doing the dull task of healing full time.

    And sorry if you cant handle a person speaking with passion and actual familiarity on a subject your clearly to new to really have any insight into understanding.

    Suffice it to say even a recent friend I got to convert to DDO from WoW left within a month of playing his first cleric here after trying a few pugs and being disgusted by the general view of a cleric as a healer.

    Clerics are not healers, healers are not clerics. Clerics who master positive energy do not see themselves as healers, but walking anti undead WMDs

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    I'm just going to put in my experience here, I am not debating the experiences of the others in this thread.

    I pretty much exclusively play on thelanis, and from my experience, as a 28 point light monk and his next life a 34 point 18/2 wiz monk, and his current life, an 36 point light monk, and a 32 point helf cleric who I got to about level 14, I have seen pretty much none of this. Granted, I refuse to play a toon that does not have some form of self healing without using pots, but I tend to find the players I have played with are respectful, and understanding of each other. It may be I am just playing with the people who are nice, or that thelanis is just nice in general, I don't know. I do however know that until I bought half elf, I refused to play a cleric, as almost everyone I had talked to had said something along the lines of what the OP is saying. Even when I did get helf, my eventually 20 helf cleric with fighter dilly has in her bio "I'm not a battlecleric, I'm a healer with an attitude!" I put that their to hopefully avoid the battle cleric stigma I had been told about. My personal opinion on this is it is either all the bad players are on certain servers, they are relatively small in amount, or because this idea is spread around so much, it is already viewed as true by players, and as such tilts their view towards the "melee unfairness view". I do not claim any of these is the truth, they are just my opinions, and I admit that I could be totally wrong.

  16. #56
    Community Member Potta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the613 View Post
    I'm just going to put in my experience here, I am not debating the experiences of the others in this thread.
    Doesn't matter. The bandwagon will be here shortly to declare your experience as inadequate because it doesn't fit in with the victim complex narrative they have going on. You'll be summarily ignored as irrelevant because someone who doesn't know you at all will randomly pick a number from a bag that corresponds with one of the below options:

    1.) You don't pug enough
    2.) You haven't been playing long enough
    3.) You're not on their server
    4.) You're not a founder
    5.) You're a "good little hireling"
    6.) You haven't "discovered the true power of the divine"
    7.) You're in league with the evil melee conspiracy to keep divines down.

    It would quite honestly be comical if I could only forget that there are actual humans on the other side of these ridiculous arguments, believing and saying such ridiculous things. It's somehow supposed to be believable that this so called by the OP, "backlash" against Divines is so widespread, so common. One poster commented that it happens to him at least once per week when he pugs. Yet players who also pug frequently for years and don't see it are told they haven't been playing for long enough yet to have noticed it. It's one or the other. If it's so rare that players have have pugged for years haven't seen it yet, then it's not something you start a melodramatic thread over and compare - quite sincerely - to the Civil Rights movement. If it's that rare, it's not even something you can generalize as happening from a particular section of the community, like melee. Generalities like that are, after all, derived from many data points that converge in some respect. Not the sort of thing you can conclude from something so vanishingly rare.

    On the other hand, it could be as common as they claim. But if it is, they'll have to explain why many of us have never noticed anyone in several years of play disrespecting their healer anything like the examples in this thread. They lack an argument for this. I have my own theory that bad players will rationalize their poor play and the reaction it gets from others by blaming the criticism they receive as coming from the myths they read on the forums about entitled melee who want them to be a "good little hireling". Who then participate in threads like this generating the next cycle of the myth perpetuating circlejerk.

    It's not a perfect theory, but it's a lot better than anything they've come up with.
    Last edited by Potta; 09-11-2012 at 12:49 AM.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khatzhas View Post
    And I thought my artificer has a lot of clickies. I'm assuming that guild ship buffs also play a large part in that as well?
    How do you actually deal with healing though? Or do you simply not do content where your damage intake in a fight is likely to be much higher than your health?
    Most of what I posted is from Armor and pots that do not require any clicky. Heck my characters, all of them, have enough UMD or are Helf with dilly that can either cast from scroll the buffs I need or heal my character.


    OK. I'll bite. I have never been told that I'm only there to heal the melee. What is it about the true power of a divine that I have failed to understand?
    Because I know I'm not just a healbot. When I'm healing and have the power to spare, I'll be telling melee mobs to siddown and shuddap, dropping flaming rocks on casters, and punishing their leaders with divine radiance. Or I may simply be beating on them with the power of my faith infusing me and a big stick. Either way, I'll likely be right next to the melee, sustaining them with the positive energy that flows through me.
    My point is that in most cases, I can do this as well as keeping everyone alive and functioning. That is the difference between a healer and a healbot.
    So. What am I missing?
    Then, you are lucky that at the times you are playing you are not running into these people. I also did say that I run into it about once a week, which in the scheme of things is probably around 1% of the time I play. Figuring I play on average 30 hours a week. And one quest during that time will have me run into someone like this. I also play over 2 servers with two different guilds.

    Who?
    No. I am serious. As far as I can tell, no-one in this thread is claiming that. We may be saying that it hasn't happened to us yet, but I don't think that anyone has made the claim that it has never happened at all.
    So I would like you to back up this claim that you are making.
    Who is saying that please?
    What? Have you not read what potta said? Basically he stated that it is the cleric's fault for the abuse they are getting. Because they are not being good little hirelings.

    I believe that what is in contention is whether most melees actually do behave that way.
    No one said most behave that way, what was said is that we have a small segment of the population that behaves this way and it is causing clerics to not want to pug.

    You are the melee. We're not talking about your divine here, we're talking about your self-sufficient characters who aren't divines.
    All of my characters are self-sufficient, I do not build my character to rely on the help from another.

    The power differential between classes is a whole other can of worms that its probably best not to open up. It may be be a factor in causing resentment or whatever, but its not directly connected to the issue here.
    It sure is connected here. It is not so much the power differential between the classes it is the fact that certain people believe that a person is worth nothing more than being a better hireling.
    Last edited by Mubjon; 09-11-2012 at 03:32 AM.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by the613 View Post
    I'm just going to put in my experience here, I am not debating the experiences of the others in this thread.

    I pretty much exclusively play on thelanis, and from my experience, as a 28 point light monk and his next life a 34 point 18/2 wiz monk, and his current life, an 36 point light monk, and a 32 point helf cleric who I got to about level 14, I have seen pretty much none of this. Granted, I refuse to play a toon that does not have some form of self healing without using pots, but I tend to find the players I have played with are respectful, and understanding of each other. It may be I am just playing with the people who are nice, or that thelanis is just nice in general, I don't know. I do however know that until I bought half elf, I refused to play a cleric, as almost everyone I had talked to had said something along the lines of what the OP is saying. Even when I did get helf, my eventually 20 helf cleric with fighter dilly has in her bio "I'm not a battlecleric, I'm a healer with an attitude!" I put that their to hopefully avoid the battle cleric stigma I had been told about. My personal opinion on this is it is either all the bad players are on certain servers, they are relatively small in amount, or because this idea is spread around so much, it is already viewed as true by players, and as such tilts their view towards the "melee unfairness view". I do not claim any of these is the truth, they are just my opinions, and I admit that I could be totally wrong.
    Wait, so you have a grand total of two characters, both of which have not reached cap and you have a start date of 2009?

    How long do you actually play in the month? 5 hours? I ask because this could be the reason you have not seen it yet.

    Heck I just ran into someone like this last night in a group that was supposedly byoh. The stupid barb just assumed that I was going to stand back and heal and do nothing else. I keep the aura up and burst when needed, but the SP I have is for me and emergencies like server lag. I pointed him to my bio and said as soon as I get my babysitting payment I will be happy to oblige.

    The point is not that a cleric should not heal while in a party, the point is at what time does the melee or arcane need to start taking responsibility for their character? I have a certain amount of slots for spells, I am not going to crowd them with every single status cure when those status cures can be bought in pot form. For example I am not going to load up greater restoration to take care of level drain, when a burst that regenerates over time can do the same thing in 1 to 2 bursts and I have it replenished in 2 to 4 minutes. I am not going to load up remove curse when the pot costs less than 5 plat.

  19. #59
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potta View Post
    Doesn't matter. The bandwagon will be here shortly to declare your experience as inadequate because it doesn't fit in with the victim complex narrative they have going on. You'll be summarily ignored as irrelevant because someone who doesn't know you at all will randomly pick a number from a bag that corresponds with one of the below options:

    1.) You don't pug enough
    2.) You haven't been playing long enough
    3.) You're not on their server
    4.) You're not a founder
    5.) You're a "good little hireling"
    6.) You haven't "discovered the true power of the divine"
    7.) You're in league with the evil melee conspiracy to keep divines down.

    It would quite honestly be comical if I could only forget that there are actual humans on the other side of these ridiculous arguments, believing and saying such ridiculous things. It's somehow supposed to be believable that this so called by the OP, "backlash" against Divines is so widespread, so common. One poster commented that it happens to him at least once per week when he pugs. Yet players who also pug frequently for years and don't see it are told they haven't been playing for long enough yet to have noticed it. It's one or the other. If it's so rare that players have have pugged for years haven't seen it yet, then it's not something you start a melodramatic thread over and compare - quite sincerely - to the Civil Rights movement. If it's that rare, it's not even something you can generalize as happening from a particular section of the community, like melee. Generalities like that are, after all, derived from many data points that converge in some respect. Not the sort of thing you can conclude from something so vanishingly rare.

    On the other hand, it could be as common as they claim. But if it is, they'll have to explain why many of us have never noticed anyone in several years of play disrespecting their healer anything like the examples in this thread. They lack an argument for this. I have my own theory that bad players will rationalize their poor play and the reaction it gets from others by blaming the criticism they receive as coming from the myths they read on the forums about entitled melee who want them to be a "good little hireling". Who then participate in threads like this generating the next cycle of the myth perpetuating circlejerk.

    It's not a perfect theory, but it's a lot better than anything they've come up with.
    Join a pug for harbour quests with a bunch of first lifers, it's like trying to herd cats. They could be down to 2hp and they'll still run off openeing doors and carrying on as if they were invincible, when they die they stand on their stone and go afk.

    By mid level it's less common, and you have more than one cure to throw, so when you get the -out of range, out of range, blocked, casting* but blocked anyway and now its on cooldown - moments, you can still top them off.
    But you get the folks that have learned about hirelings and expect an on demand heal right on their backside no matter which direction they run, the problem arises when you have 2 or more of these in 1 group. Doesnt matter how good of a healer you think you are, you can't be in 2 places at once, you can ask them to stick together, but it doesnt always work, many of then haven't learned about headphones yet.

    Toward end game it's much less common, but it still happens in quests where the party has to split up or can easily be split up. Like when doing ghosts of perdition, the party splits in 2 to kill the 2 brothers (this actually happened to me) the leader asked me (a fvs) to kill the second brother and he (a paladin) would kill the first, the ranger decided that would be a good time to pull agro on the first brother, run around a bit and die while yelling into the mic 'where are the heals, I'm using a triple positive bow, do you think I'm playing around here?' Kill the 2 brothers, run back up the ramp to throw him a raise, he is afk, try again while running back down he takes it. I heal him to full, he hits sprint boost and runs down the hall to where you meet the doomsphere, and I'm thinking to myself, you better have a firewall waiting at the bottom, of course he didn't and died again, and again 'where's the heals?' My fault, bad healer.

    Or in coal chamber, when we get to the first shaft, and the no heal amp wf barb falls off when we are half way up, says nothing, decides that would be a good time to backtrack and clear the rooms we skipped, runs through a trap agros a bunch of mobs... in his defence he actually did start to drink pots at this point. And the sorc says 'hey healer, how about healing the barb'. To which I say, 'do you know where he is'? I check the map, drop down run all the way all way back and ding, too late. My fault, bad healer.

    It's much less common end game, but it has happened to me where I joined a pug for epic the black loch, this one is short, the wf wizard steps in before anyone else, buffs, summons an earth elemental and goes afk to get a drink, the earth elly agros the mobs in the first room and they quickly finish off the caster. He gets on the mic and says 'why didn't you heal me?', the cleric wasn't even in the dungeon yet. This one wasn't my fault, I was a fighter at the time.

  20. #60
    The Hatchery Rawrargh's Avatar
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    I'm still going to say:

    A cleric that refuse (note the word refuse) is nothing short of either a petty idiot with a napoleon complex or a full-blown ******.

    Refusing to use abilities granted by the ONLY prestige and refusing to use spells granted AUTOMATICALLY is nothing short of bad players being bad players.

    It's the same as a rogue refusing to do traps: "Hey! I'm not your trap slave!"

    Same as a wizard refusing to cast spells: "Hey! I'm not your spell-monkey!"

    It's the same as a barbarian refusing to rage: "Hey! I'm not your... never mind... I'll just oppress the cleric instead"

    The OP is making me sick, giving a bad name to all divines with his butthurt superiority complex. I know what a divine is capable of, both melee divines and caster divines - Yes I've played 2 lives as a "battle cleric" and a life as a fvs and never have I seen that attitude the OP is refering to. It's probably got to do with me actually contributing to the group by healing AND doing other stuff instead of being a self-intitled little **** too busy sniffing my own farts to even notice that I'm not alone in the group.

    P.S. I've got a terrible feeling that we're being trolled and I just rolled a 1 on my detect motive... I have a hard time believing that anyone would actually believe that halflings make the best fighters/barbs...

    P.P.S. Incoming negrep for speaking my mind... damn opressive divines.
    -The mash on Argo
    In Soviet Russia Shroud trust in YOU!

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