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  1. #1
    Community Member Loriac's Avatar
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    Default Semi-tukaw build questions / thoughts

    I like the concept of the Tukaw build, but don't like losing sorc18 for 3rd tier PRE. With the EDs, is it possible to drop the paladin levels and substitute in enough +Ref saves via twists?

    I was thinking of going artificer for final life, but then started analysing exactly what I like about that class, and came up with the following:

    i. very sustainable dps that isn't reliant on the blue bar
    ii. trapskills and general versatility to use any and all items
    iii. I don't really like the pet, finding it useless at higher levels except for lever pulling
    iv. run speed when using the runearm is horrible, probably the worst part of playing an arti

    So then I started thinking about using sorc as the base class, but with melee capability for reasonable dps when not draining the blue bar, i.e. some tukaw variant. However, the tier 3 air PRE is really nice imo, as lightning bolt offers the best single target sla damage and air dance is very useful for mobility.

    Specifically:

    WF Sorc 18 / Rog 2, 36pt build (3xPL sorc)

    Str:14(+3tome+2exceptional+7item+2rage+4tensers+2s hip)=34 [giving +18 damage modifier for 2h weapons]
    Dex: 8(+whatever, dex is dumped)
    Con:16(+3tome+2exceptional+7item+2rage+2ship)=32
    Int:15(+3tome+2exceptional+8item+2ship)=30
    Wis:6(+whatever, wis is dumped)
    Cha:16(+3tome+6levels+3class+2exceptional+7item+2s hip+1ED)=40

    Feats:Power Attack, Maximise, Heighten, Quicken, Extend, SF:Evoc, Toughness, Insightful reflexes, Force of personality

    Epic destiny: Draconic. Twists: +3 evoc dc from magister, +6 reflex from magister, +6 to trapskills from shadowdancer

    Skills: almost full search and disable, half UMD (can still hit umd 43ish for ressurection scrolls), some spot, balance, open lock, possibly intim

    The high Int on this build is unusual, and is intended to allow for trap monkeying if required (particularly when levelling, with the increased lethality of elite traps) and for insightful reflexes. The alternative would be to put Str up by 3 points, which at most will be +3 damage. I think I prefer the increased utility of raising int, but am open to criticisms of this choice. The trapskills twist is a way to maintain top end trap skills within the build's skill point budget.

    Draconic gives another +6 reflex save on top of the magister twist. Total reflex saves are mid 40s (9+10int mod + 2 good luck + 4 greater heroism + 6 resistance + 12 EDs +4 sup parrying situationally = 47)

    The build would probably go air savant for the air dance ability, would take warforged Power attack line (giving +16 damage from power attack) and make use of tenser's when in heavy melee. It would also be almost fully evoc caster capable, with max'd charisma from levels etc. The build loses evoc dc from not having greater spell focus / epic spell focus, but the 3x PLs make up for this. CC will be restricted to things likeweb and otto's irresistable dance. The build would not use instakills; it doesn't have the Spell penetration or necro dc's to make this possible at epic elite.

    One other thought I have is to go SF:conjuration instead of SF: evocation. This would be primarily to raise web dc's, but I'm in two minds about that as I really do like air savant over the others, and a high evoc dc is a necessity with it.

    I think this build would be great for levelling and everything below epic elite. My main question is, how would it fare for epic elite? I doubt it could solo epic elite, but would it be good enough to take a dps slot in a group doing epic elite?

  2. #2
    Community Member EpiKagEMO's Avatar
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    The build has potential; only up to 20. Since you don't depend on CHA as much, another class would be better-Wizard.

    Air savant is a great choice for arcane tanks, because the immunity of trips. The original Tukaw had problems with this.

    DPS:
    Most of the melee sorcs don't provide much dps. A pure fighter provides much more dps. A semi-geared fighter(me) has trouble on epic content. I have built a tukaw, and his damage was only 30 per strike. My fighter brought 60 per strike.

    These types of builds are not meant for epic content.
    The damage this build deals will not suffice for epic content, unless you were to depend on casting. You are also missing Cleave and Great Cleave, which is a major damage source for this build.

    Edit: This is a great source to look at: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=385460
    A rogue is basically, "Look at me or die."

  3. #3
    Community Member Loriac's Avatar
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    I think wiz18/rog2 plays very differently to a sorc based build.

    Specifically, the sorc can put out a lot of damage via evocation which is inherently less reliant on Spell pen and raw dc's. I think its also a more future proofed build, as the devs seem to be more likely to nerf save or die spells based on player 'feedback'.

    The wizard build would need to go down the 3xPL wiz, 3xPL fvs to maintain its use of save or die spells into epic elite. It would also be much harder to use reconstruct with tenser's up on such a build due to cooldown times.

    The other thing to bear in mind is that the build outlined is only 2 short of having full evoc dcs vs a min-maxed wf pure sorc build. In other words, it is almost a full caster spec itself, and it focuses on a sorc's strength (evoc spells). The key reason it can't use save or die is spell pen, but e.g. prismatic spray provides some functionality along those lines without reliance on having to bypass mob spell resistance.

    I'm also a bit confused about the damage per strike mentioned in your post. With 34 str as listed, and using an epic +6 2h sword, you'd have the following numbers:

    2[2d6]+6+18[34str, +12 damage mod x1.5]+16[wf power attack] = 54

    This is damage before factoring in sneak attack (1d6+16 assuming a ring of avithoul), and any weapon effects. Fighting in an incendiary cloud would allow you to get sneak damage even solo, so I'd argue that sneak damage should be factored in as almost always on.

    I agree that cleave and great cleave would be good, I just don't see how to fit them into the build. Also, its arguable that with sorc aoe damage potential, cleave is not as necessary as it would be on a melee, as you have other (much better) aoe damage options.

    I had forgotten about the immunity to knockdown when going air savant; as you mentioned, this was a key weakness for the tukaw build and adds weight to going air rather than the more usual earth for a wf savant. The key downside imo to air is losing an effective stoneskin; assuming full draconic ED, you'd have a caster level of 16 however which may be sufficient I guess.

  4. #4
    Community Member EpiKagEMO's Avatar
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    Sorry for a late reply:

    There are many types of Wizards, so don't throw the idea out so quickly. Evocation, Conjuration, etc. Evocation Wizard vs Sorc? More feats from wizard, less SP. Possibly more SP with archmage bonuses, higher DCs, larger spell selection. Wizard buff+all types of AOE(dancing ball to cloudkill)=decent melee. With more than 3 lives, a melee wizard should be the easier choice to make. Casting might be a pain though x3

    DPS on a pure fighter vs a arcane tank
    Fighter/Pally/Barb can dish out x2 the amount any battle caster can(I hope).
    The reason why I bring this up, is because 50 damage per strike does not seem to be enough. I tried taking aggro from a bard(epic) and sadly the boss focused on him. I hit around 50s with my fighter, hate spec, 100% hate amp from paladin enhancement. With these results I can come to the conclusions: He has more DPS than I, or He was wearing aggro gear for a bard o.0

    Now there are several things you mention doing.
    Casting(AOE), Melee+Heals.
    Some questions worth thinking about:
    Which one are you doing? Casting? or Fighting? Can all these be done in one bout? Won't a pure Sorc or Fighter pull ahead?

    In one strong wave, the sp on these types of toons will drain faster than a pure sorc without tensers

    Savant:
    Stoneskin... that spell is weak :P LOTS of guards(torc/stoneskin/damage-fire/ice/good/etc.) and displacement are all you really need x3
    A rogue is basically, "Look at me or die."

  5. #5
    Community Member Loriac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EpiKagEMO View Post
    Sorry for a late reply:

    There are many types of Wizards, so don't throw the idea out so quickly. Evocation, Conjuration, etc. Evocation Wizard vs Sorc? More feats from wizard, less SP. Possibly more SP with archmage bonuses, higher DCs, larger spell selection. Wizard buff+all types of AOE(dancing ball to cloudkill)=decent melee. With more than 3 lives, a melee wizard should be the easier choice to make. Casting might be a pain though x3
    The key difference between the two is cooldown. This affects the ability to pump out sp-efficient damage (rotating spells tends to be more expensive than being able to use the high damage / low sp ones more often). My main concern though is reconstruct, which will be much slower under Tenser's for the wizard.

    Higher DC is nice, but doesn't do as much for damage spells as it does for save or die. I put up an analysis of this on the spellcaster's forum, and it approximately translates to an extra 1% damage per DC increase.

    However, the main difference in my view is the comparison to a pure class build. A wiz/rog is much worse than a pure wiz, as the loss of the capstone is a big loss. Other players' expectations of wizards is also likely to be that they bring crowd control and instakills, so a wizard that can't do that stuff is a liability to the group - i.e. he will not be able to fill the role of a wizard for that group, making him an 'extra' for once the group has found someone who can. A sorc though doesn't lose much from the loss of the final two heroic levels. The capstone is worth around 3% damage once you factor in total spellpower, and the loss of 2DCs for not taking GSF: Evoc and ESF: Evoc comes in at a further 2% damage loss. A sorc pumping out 95% damage is still doing hefty dps, and is either top dps in the group or very close to the barb.

    DPS on a pure fighter vs a arcane tank
    Fighter/Pally/Barb can dish out x2 the amount any battle caster can(I hope).
    The reason why I bring this up, is because 50 damage per strike does not seem to be enough. I tried taking aggro from a bard(epic) and sadly the boss focused on him. I hit around 50s with my fighter, hate spec, 100% hate amp from paladin enhancement. With these results I can come to the conclusions: He has more DPS than I, or He was wearing aggro gear for a bard o.0
    This is a good point, and its fairly clear to me that switching to melee mode is probably either a wash dps wise for the sorc, or its actually lower dps than just using spells. The main reason for having the melee option however is that it is fully sustainable damage that isn't reliant on the blue bar. A secondary reason is that its more fun to be able to mix things up, and damage done will be sufficient to solo up to EH without any issues.

    DPS from spells is huge for the sorc. One triple stacked dot is worth around 200dps with max'd out spell power. On its own, this is likely to exceed the melee damage a sorc can put out. Factor in 2 of these, and polar ray going off every 3 secs, and you're upto around 650dps easily. These three spells are basically the backbone of a sorc's boss dps, and the sorc18/rog2 has full dps for this combo. Add in the tier 3 SLA every 6 seconds, and you have another 100 dps from that too.

    From what I have read of the Tukaw build in fact, damage from guards probably exceeds the melee damage it puts out. A sorc 18/rog 2 will have no problem stealing aggro if he wants it just by burning sp to do so.

    Now there are several things you mention doing.
    Casting(AOE), Melee+Heals.
    Some questions worth thinking about:
    Which one are you doing? Casting? or Fighting? Can all these be done in one bout? Won't a pure Sorc or Fighter pull ahead?

    In one strong wave, the sp on these types of toons will drain faster than a pure sorc without tensers
    The basic thinking behind this build is that I had originally planned a final life arti as my main. I really enjoyed the self-sufficiency of the arti class, which in my view is driven by having sustainable non-blue bar damage on top of which you add trapskills, decent buffs, and some nuking ability.

    However, when I compare boss fights on a solo arti vs. a solo arcane, there is no comparison. The arcane DOTs alone make most boss fights trivial for a sorc whereas the arti is pinging away for multiples of the time.

    This got me thinking about doing a splash build, but I've never enjoyed wiz/rog combinations in the past. Basically, the wiz/rog feels a lot weaker than a pure wiz for actually casting spells. A sorc/rog is a difficult combo because of the lack of synergy between the sorc class and INT based skills, but the sorc itself is so strong at nuke damage that a loss of 2 levels doesn't feel so big.

    What makes the sorc/rog possible now though is the savant tier 3, EDs that allow you to mitigate the weaknesses of the build (particularly the low reflex save), and the new version of Tenser's.

    Also, as I understand it, the new Tenser's doesn't affect sp costs now, it only makes cooldowns longer and takes 2 DC off your spells. Its a spell you can safely use in crowds of trash when you're not using DOTs. I'd expect it to burn less sp in such circumstances because of the reliance on melee damage instead of blue-bar damage.

    Savant:
    Stoneskin... that spell is weak :P LOTS of guards(torc/stoneskin/damage-fire/ice/good/etc.) and displacement are all you really need x3
    Yep, I can totally see this. If stoneskin was more useful at the highest difficulty levels, then I'd probably reconsider air savant on this build, but as its a flat reduction of 10, its not that worthwhile on EE.

  6. #6
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    If you put aside the stereotypical perception of a wizard vs a sorc, I think you could make a very similar character going wizard/rogue (Undead for healing)

    Pros & cons of wizard vs sorc:
    Less mana
    Slower casting
    More available spell selection
    Loss of sorc PREs in exchange for wizard PREs
    More focused as far as stats go. Both classes dump dex, but a Wizard can focus on int, con and str with more points to allocate.
    More feats available for extra melee DPS
    In the case of sorc non AIR or cold PRE, your level 5 dots would do the same damage as a wizard
    Higher reflex save
    Less damage due to loss of WF PA.
    More skill points
    Different SLAs
    More persistent (albeit weaker) AOE spells to cast.
    Constant source of healing and minor enemy damage at the same time.

    As far as reflex saves, I think you will always have a problem until you reach epic levels. And even then, you're looking at the absolute best case with a heavy ED cost for the reflex.


    -Storm
    Last edited by Stormraiser; 09-28-2012 at 04:58 PM.

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