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  1. #1
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    Default Why is Druid Epic Dest not in the divine circle?

    Why is the Druid Epic Dest not in the divine circle? It doesn't seem to really fit in the current barb/ranger circle.

    I'm not sure what the reasoning is, but i'm guessing it's placed there to give a "balanced" tree? My guess is that there was originally gonna be a cleric-themed ED in the divine circle and to make it balanced, the druid-themed ED was placed in the barb/ranger circle? But due to time constraint they were left out? Even though the cleric-themed ED never made it, at least it stayed in the divine circle and has access to other divine-themed EDs. In the case of druids, without a druid-themed ED, they're kinda left alone in unfriendly territory IMHO.

    Whatever the orginal intent may be, the current placement seems kinda odd. Is there any chance to consider giving druids the option of going to the divine circle directly? I can understand that having a balanced tree "looks nice", but from a functional perspective, a divine class being able to directly access the divine circle makes sense too. (It also doesn't help that the barb/ranger-themed circle is on the other side of the tree).

    Even if you don't let us go there directly, at least allow druids to get caster level benefits from the divine circle EDs.
    Last edited by ddonoobgamer; 09-07-2012 at 08:39 PM.

  2. #2
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    Because druids are not divine casters. Their powers come from the primal/nature realm, not divine.
    Their main similarity is that their spells actually come from scrolls they are supposed to carry, and they recite them as an extension of faith, which are not extensions of knowledge like the arcane casters.
    A lot of the new stuff does not really make sense with the traditional pen and paper D&D, but that is one reason.
    Last edited by soulaeon; 09-08-2012 at 01:57 AM.

  3. #3
    The Hatchery samthedagger's Avatar
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    There is really only one simple answer to this. It is pure speculation, but I know the way that Hasbro/WotC has been working for the past few years. The answer is because WotC wanted it that way.

    To go into a little more detail: In 3e, druids were divine casters. When 4e came out WotC wanted everyone to play "the new game" and forget the old game ever existed (okay, maybe hyperbole, but that is how it seemed to me). When they finally got around to druids in 4e, they classified them as using "Primal" power. If you have any inkling of 4e you will have noticed that 4e mechanics and terminology have been creeping into DDO for the past couple of years. I think the first really solid example I have is the astral diamonds, a rather novel D&D term in 4e which was only available in the DDO store, but nevertheless began tying DDO to 4e. (I am certain there are earlier examples I am unaware of, but I digress.) The four epic destiny circles correspond to the four major sources of power in 4e, Martial, Arcane, Divine, and Primal (they don't have Psionic or Shadow classes in DDO, at least not yet). Even the term "epic destiny" is straight out of 4e. Even the concept that any character of any class can theoretically level up in any epic destiny is a 4e concept. The more DDO moves along, the more 4e concepts creep into the game.

    I can only imagine what might happen when D&D Next (5e) comes out next year. We could have a bastardized mesh of three different editions. Hasbro/WotC still exercises a lot of creative control over the content of DDO because they own the IP. I am not necessarily saying this is a bad thing. As long as the game is fun to play, I will continue to play it. But this game gets further and further from the 3.5e rules set it was based on with every update. So there's your answer.

  4. #4

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    I think one of the main problems is that the epic destiny “tree” should be a 3D object and not a 2D object. Meaning, there should be connections from the Primal Destinies to the Arcane and Divine. (ex. Fury of the Wild should unlock the martial destinies, Shiradi Champion should unlock the arcane destinies and Primal Avatar should unlock the divine destinies.) Also Arcane should somehow link directly to the divine destinies.

    A slightly more fleshed out example. If a destiny isn't mentioned it means leave it as is or adjust it based on the other changes made in the list (ex. Fury and Magister.):
    Draconic Incarnation: All the Arcane plus Primal Avatar*. (Draconic representing the more elemental side of arcane magic.)
    Exalted Angel: All the Divine plus Fatesinger. (Fatesinger being the “Bard destiny” and linking the 2 spell types like the bard class does.)
    Fury of the Wild: All the Primal plus Dreadnaught. (Cause, really, what does Shiradi Champion have to do with the Marital sphere?)
    Legendary Dreadnaught: All the Martial plus Fury of the Wild.
    Magister: All the Arcane plus Shadowdancer. (Magister representing wizardry and by extension training in magic and not natural aptitude.)

    * This is assuming that Primal Avatar is a more spiritual oriented destiny. Shiradi can work too. But, I would like to link that more to the divine sphere when we get the missing 3rd divine destiny.
    Things that if Turbine went all EXTREME PREJUDICE™ on, would actually make the game fun again.:
    • Giving us the racial PrE’s we were promised, before rolling out DDOStore™ Enhancement Trees.
    • One loot system to rule them all. (Including Cannith Crafting, and Named Loot.)
    • Fixing the Cannith Challenges so that they can be 6 starred without incredible luck or store bought items.
    • Adjusting Challenge XP so that they're worth running more than once.

  5. #5

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    @ the OP: It's a classification method to balance out the number of each classes in the ED's and follows the fourth edition power sources even though druids are divine casters in third edition.

    @ samthedagger: But now WotC is working of 5th edition (next) and that's an amalgam of characteristics from 2nd, 3rd, and 4th edition in the play testing so far. The kind of removes the push towards 4th edition theory because it becomes a waste of time as everything should be moving away from that system in the not-so-distant future.

  6. #6
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    Doubt that there is/was a "cleric themed" epic destiny. They are already fairly well catered for with the healer/Smiter ED and the Tank -> Martial EDs.

    Bear in mind that by your logic, there likely wouldn't be a Primal Tree. Rangers are divines same as Druids are, and at that point you may as well count Barbarians as Martial and remove the extraneous tree.

  7. #7
    Community Member Diyon's Avatar
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    Druid is a divine caster in 3.5e. As others said, in 4e they made the Primal power source, which includes rangers and barbarians (still are divine casters in DDO though). IMO, this was one of the good moves that 4e took. Druids and rangers always were the red-headed stepchilds of the divine casters, in that they always felt like they were something completely separate. Barbarian fits well in it, because you think of rage tapping into some primal inner midset anyways. While there's a lot I don't like about 4e (especially when they started going nuts with errata), this and their DMG are two the good things that 4e had (4e DMG is a great book. It could have used some more info, but it was a superb book for teaching someone how to run a game, in any edition).


    On another note, Epic Destinies in 4e couldn't necessarily be chosen by anyone, some of them had a requirement or two.
    Khyber: Runforr 13/6/1 Rog/Ftr/Mnk, Bakup 3/3/1 Mnk/Pal/Rog (TR Pal), Faylah 14 Mnk (TR Mnk), Janthyra 12/7/1 Brb/Rog/Ftr, Ainbthech 20 Sor, Fliethas 18/2 Fvs/Mnk, Unfilled 12/6/2 Mnk/Rgr/Ftr, Arcanemark 10 Wiz "Don't eat us dragon! We're like you, but smaller. And fly worse." - Kobold Crewman on the Heart of Wind

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diyon View Post
    Druid is a divine caster in 3.5e. As others said, in 4e they made the Primal power source, which includes rangers and barbarians (still are divine casters in DDO though).
    DDO has recently (although incompletely) changed Druids and Rangers into non-Divine casters. For example, go find a Quell in Orchard of the Macabre and see if you can cast spells under his debuff (you can!)

  9. #9
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    Thanks for the replies. I'm not a PnP player, the only exposure I had to D&D is from this game. However, I read a lot of posts refering to druids as divine class, hence my post; but I guess they were refering to 3.x Ed and not 4.0 Ed. Having said that, I thought DDO was based on 3.x Ed. I see a lot of posters denouncing the as yet unreleased NWN Online because they will be based on 4.x Ed and that they will stick with DDO because its based on 3.x Ed. I do appreciate the replies, cause now at least I can see why they placed druid where they have. But this ruleset edition thing is quite confusing, as a game that is supposedly based on 3.x Ed is now suddenly based on 4.0 Ed in just a certain aspect of the game.

    I don't like the somewhat arbitrary linkage of EDs, where a fighter/monk/rogue can move to the divine circle in 1 hop [flower->sentinel] while a druid (which has enough in common to be classified as divine in 3.x) has to take 3 hops [shiradi->dread, dread->flower, flower->sentinel]. IMO, I think it would've been better to just allow people to cross between any circle they want in 1 hop; as in 3 levels in current ED for an intra-circle hop (inside a crcle) and say 4 or 5 levels in current ED for an inter-circle hop (between circles).
    Last edited by ddonoobgamer; 09-09-2012 at 08:18 PM.

  10. #10
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    It gets a bit tricky even in 3.5 rules.

    Druid and Ranger spells are divine in nature, so they would technically count as a divine class. They get their spells from an outside source, rather than inner power or manipulation of magical sources.As such, their spells do not suffer an armour check penalty for example.
    However, they do not get their power from Deities or faiths as such. There are clerics of nature gods, but these are not the same as Druids. (This gets even trickier in Eberron, where several of the major faiths aren't based around worship of gods.)

    It is a tradition of magic that was taught to the races, rather than arising from worship, but it still involves following some code (such as the Druidic Oath).
    In essence, you could define it several different ways. They picked one that is the same interpretation as a later edition put on it.

  11. #11
    Community Member Diyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    DDO has recently (although incompletely) changed Druids and Rangers into non-Divine casters. For example, go find a Quell in Orchard of the Macabre and see if you can cast spells under his debuff (you can!)
    Well if this is the case, I can't fault them for that, as I think that's a better setup anyways. 4e may have done it, but I could really care less.

    As to the game suddenly being 4e, that is way, way far from reality. This game has more in common with 3.5e still than any other D&D edition. Just because it's taken a few concepts from 4e doesn't mean this is a 4e based game. (For example, 4e you get a feat every odd lvl (I think. maybe its first and every even level))
    Khyber: Runforr 13/6/1 Rog/Ftr/Mnk, Bakup 3/3/1 Mnk/Pal/Rog (TR Pal), Faylah 14 Mnk (TR Mnk), Janthyra 12/7/1 Brb/Rog/Ftr, Ainbthech 20 Sor, Fliethas 18/2 Fvs/Mnk, Unfilled 12/6/2 Mnk/Rgr/Ftr, Arcanemark 10 Wiz "Don't eat us dragon! We're like you, but smaller. And fly worse." - Kobold Crewman on the Heart of Wind

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diyon View Post
    As to the game suddenly being 4e, that is way, way far from reality. This game has more in common with 3.5e still than any other D&D edition. Just because it's taken a few concepts from 4e doesn't mean this is a 4e based game. (For example, 4e you get a feat every odd lvl (I think. maybe its first and every even level))
    I'm not sure if that was a reply to my comment, but just to clarify, I was saying : "But this ruleset edition thing is quite confusing, as a game that is supposedly based on 3.x Ed is now suddenly based on 4.0 Ed in just a certain aspect of the game". That certain aspect of the game is refering to the druid class being considered non-divine based on 4.x Ed rules. That was actually the point of my comment - that a game that is supposedly based on 3.x Ed is now suddenly based on 4.x Ed rules in its treatment of the druid class as non-divine and it's placement in it's current ED circle. I'm not saying the game itself is suddenly 4e.
    Last edited by ddonoobgamer; 09-11-2012 at 07:25 AM.

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