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  1. #1
    Community Member Kalker's Avatar
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    Default Wizard CC Spells (sort of pertaining to the AM PrE)

    Hello DDOers, or rather, forumites! I just learned the second term very recently.

    Anyway, I have several questions about Wizard CC spells, along with the PrE AM. But you probably already figured that out from my title.

    So first, I want to ask for some opinions of viable end-game CC spells. The highest level Wizard I've ever had was a level 3, so I'm not very experienced in this area. For example, I hear that "Web" and "Hypnotism" are some of the best there are. But I wonder why? There are a lot of other possible alternatives too right? Like... "Mass Charm Monster" or "Mass Suggestion" (I just went on the DDOwiki and checked out the Enchantments spell list). Oh. And also, I hear that Mass Hold Monster and Otto's Sphere of Dancing are good too. So basically, could you sort of list some of the reasons as to why some of the most popular CC spells are as popular as they are? I've never had the opportunity to use these spells in epics or raids (higher-level content overall).

    Second, self-sustainability is in the current metagame (I think I'm using that term correctly). Groups are always looking for people who can look out for themselves and who do not have to constantly rely on a Cleric. I think.
    So it is always suggested that a WF go AM, and everyone else (besides Half Orcs.. haha) go PM. But.. I really, really want to be a Human AM. I know that this is a game, and it's about fun. So I was honestly wondering if I could somehow be a Human AM and still be good. Like, not get outright rejected from groups and stuff. I've never experienced this either because my highest level character, a level 5 Ranger, has only soloed so far.

    Thank you for reading DD- forumites!

    (I'm going to go to sleep, so I'll read the replies and reply/ask more questions tomorrow. Good night everyone! )
    Quote Originally Posted by Handpicked View Post
    When I select [C]haotic good, there is no long debate. It[']s something I feel in my heart, and I will live righteously by my choice even if I am alone in a sea of [N]eutral faces. Even if I take extra damage. Even if I must avoid the gear that all my peers are using. The moral high ground is lonely... just like in life.

  2. #2
    Community Member Innara's Avatar
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    I hear that "Web" and "Hypnotism" are some of the best there are. But I wonder why?
    Hypnotism basically gives you an effective +3 dc to enchant spells on the mobs that are affected by it, as the spell not only fascinates the target on the spot but also bestows a -3 will save. Usual tactic is to cast Hypno on a bunch of mobs then cast spells like hold/dancing balls. For AMs specializing in enhant spells, you get the hypno spell like ability which is much cheaper to cast than the actual spell.

    Web is very useful for those mobs that are immune to enhant spells, such as constructs and Undead. Plus it can be cheaper to cast even on fleshie mobs instead of spamming Hyno/Dancing/Hold every encounter. AMs specializing in conjuration will also get a cheap spell like ability for this spell.

    There are a lot of other possible alternatives too right? Like... "Mass Charm Monster" or "Mass Suggestion" (I just went on the DDOwiki and checked out the Enchantments spell list). Oh. And also, I hear that Mass Hold Monster and Otto's Sphere of Dancing are good too.
    Yep they're all useful and CC Wizard should carry all of them. Do note that, though, charm spells shouldn't be used too often as it will just drag on fights. Most groups will kill the mobs faster if you simple use dance/hold etc. Restrict its use to solo or when you're overwhelmed in a group (elite Weapon Shipment comes to mind ).

    So basically, could you sort of list some of the reasons as to why some of the most popular CC spells are as popular as they are? I've never had the opportunity to use these spells in epics or raids (higher-level content overall).
    You pretty much got all CC spells that are used on the dot. I'll add that you also want to cast spells like symbol of death and enervation/energy drain in high end content to neg level the mobs before you throw your holds/dance etc. Mind fog can also be useful to reduce a mobs will dc as is Hynotic Pattern (but don't use that, it has horrible graphics and will **** everyone off). Also keep the 9th level Otto's Irresistible Dance (it has no save, just spell pen) handy for spellcasting mobs with high will saves.

    Also make sure to work on your pell pen. I can't stress this enough. Especially with the new expansion and the abundance of Drow mobs, you need to have high spell in order to land any of your spells at all. From what I gather, for epic elites you want your spell pen in mid 50s for a near 100% success. I hear 40s for most epic hard content. [Numbers need proper confirmation here as I've not been playing my Wizard since the expansion.]

    So I was honestly wondering if I could somehow be a Human AM and still be good. Like, not get outright rejected from groups and stuff.
    Well you can make a Human AM is you so wish, but the benefits of going WF is far greater IMHO. Especially for a new player, the self sufficiency will help you a long way. But if you do insist on going AM I would suggest you invest in UMD, but if you go pure Wizard getting UMD to any meaningful number (usually 39 for no fail heal scrolls) will be a hefty task.

    You will probably not get outright rejected from groups, though high end epic elite raids might be an exception for some groups as you might be expected to solo a certain portion while keeping yourself up...it really depends on the party leader to be honest. Make sure to communicate to your party that you're not self healing. Most will assume by default a fleshie wiz is a PM.

    Hope that helps some! I'm sure others more experienced in playing a Wizard will add their own tips.
    Last edited by Innara; 09-27-2012 at 11:38 AM. Reason: Typos

  3. #3
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    As Innara said, going WF will net you a great advantage

    HOWEVER, going human, if you think it's funnier, is doable. She/He mentions End epic elite raids, don't worry about that. Epic Elite are for the experienced people with lots of gear on their shoulders. Also, when you will be more experienced, you can always TR and change yourself into a WF if you think it will be better.

    If you wanna go human, invest the skill points in UMD to be able to use Heal scrolls when you will be more experienced and when you will have some gear to boost UMD. It's very useful.

    Also, if you join a raid or any quest, make sure that leader knows that you are new and not very familiar with the quest. Some will reject you because they don't wanna show you the quest but most of us will gladly take a first timer and show him/her the ropes.

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    I hope I'm right in saying this, but I think that Web doesn't have to make a Spell Penetration check to see if it sticks. Mobs in the new content, especially on higher difficulty levels, have very high spell resistance (many are Drow) and so, while they probably would fail their Will saves versus Mass Hold or Otto's Sphere, you never get that far because of the SR check. Web requires a strength check to break, and caster mobs, even at end game, do not have high STR scores so Web ties them up quite nicely.

    (please correct me on the above if I am wrong)

    On the subject of DCs in expansion content.....low to mid 40s is pretty much no-fail on Epic Normal and the lower level Epic Hards. Mid to high 40s is the same for Epic Hards and some Epic Elites. It seems to take scores into the 50s to deal with the really advanced Epic Elite content. I have a Human AM Magister who is CC-specced and has a 47 DC on Mass Hold and Otto's. I had to gear, spec and destiny to get that number but it pays off big time, as the melee dps output of the party multiples quite beautifully against held mobs and that DC allows him to be effective in all but the highest level EE content in the game with regularity and even some of the time in that. Just to tell you how the difference of a few points is huge, my Bard's DC of 38 makes her CC spells rather iffy, while my Wizard, if he swaps EDs to Draconic, is fine with a DC of 41. Bottom line: it takes some effort and you make some sacrifices to build a CC mage that is viable towards the end-game, but I say it is more than worth it.

    Mass Charm and Mass Suggestion can make fights easy that might otherwise be challenging but, sadly, most players don't have the patience to let the mobs whack each other around, even though the result is your group takes less damage and saves on spell points and repair bills. If you have a group that understands what you're trying to do and has the patience to let you do it, by all means run with it. Most PuGs, though, will be yelling "dispel charm you >insert rude term here<" within seconds of seeing the spell land. Be forewarned.

    Finally...on the subject of race: go Warforged. With their immunities, resistances, and, above all, their self-healing capability, they are much more forgiving of player mistakes than are other races. Yes, you do lose the Human bonus feat, but the survivability they have, I think, offsets that. For one spell slot, you are your own healer. You can grab a WF melee hire and have all the bases covered. In all the instances in the game wherein race of character makes a difference, I think this is the biggest one.

  5. #5
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    I'm sure that you can reach 39 UMD on a human AM for scroll healing.

    Get the human healing amp enhancements, all 3 tiers of healing amp gear, UMD gear, silver flame pots... Once you are done, you will have better healing than the warforged, and it will come from pots and scrolls, not from your limited SP.

    You have to trust your spells to make sf pots/heal scrolls work. Make sure that mind fog+disco ball+Symbol of death counts. Scrolls require concentration checks, silver flame pots nerf your DCs for 30 seconds.
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    Community Member FuzzyDuck81's Avatar
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    The other thing that makes web the CC of choice even in epics is that it physically restrains them, subject to a reflex save - not only does that mean stuff immune to enchantment spells are still generally susceptible, but it's also not subject to spell resistance, and in high level & epic content that can sometimes be tricky if not near-impossible to get past. As such, conjuration is a brilliant choice of secondary specialisation, since you'll be using web a lot & SLAs get the metamagics applied for free - and being a level 2 spell, heightening a web costs a fair bit SP-wise
    Last edited by FuzzyDuck81; 09-09-2012 at 03:17 PM.
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  7. #7
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kmnh View Post
    I'm sure that you can reach 39 UMD on a human AM for scroll healing.

    Get the human healing amp enhancements, all 3 tiers of healing amp gear, UMD gear, silver flame pots... Once you are done, you will have better healing than the warforged, and it will come from pots and scrolls, not from your limited SP.

    You have to trust your spells to make sf pots/heal scrolls work. Make sure that mind fog+disco ball+Symbol of death counts. Scrolls require concentration checks, silver flame pots nerf your DCs for 30 seconds.
    This sounds like sound advice for a veteran player, but frankly for a new player it's not going to be practical. If you go pure wizard you will have about 12 points possible by level 20 if you invest in the umd skill every level. That means you're going to have to come up with a whopping 27 points from other sources to hit 39. This will certainly include a greensteel item, which you won't have for a while, multiple exotic potions, which you won't have for a long time, and other gear, which you won't have for a long time.

    OP, you say you haven't levelled any characters past level 5 yet, and then only solo. I can tell you that you will almost never be rejected from a group for being a non warforged arcane. Anybody that would reject you for that, you don't want to play with anyway.

    I'm also going to assume that you haven't formed any static groups to play with. This means, at least at first you will be joining groups from the lfm panel, or starting your own. My experience is that almost none of these, except the ones which explicitly state things like zerg, or byoh, will expect you to be completely self sufficient. The same goes for any class that doesn't have innate healing abilities. Using umd for scrolls, or silver flame potions, will not even be available until late in the game. 400 Silver Flame favor requires owning, and basically finishing on elite all of the necro packs. High umd, unless you are a class that is charisma based, and has umd as a class skill will not be useful until very late in the game.

    Reading the forums can give the impression that everyone is a self sufficient, superpowered killing machine that is capable of soloing everything in the game up to epic elite raids. The reality is, that you will likely never run into any of these people, or run with them.

    Reading these forums would give you the impression that the game is overrun with half-elves. Where are they? Take a look around the game world. Someone posted in a thread about drow that half elves are so much better that's why there are so many of them, and you don't see any drow. Reality check: I've seen less than a dozen half-elves in the year i've been playing. I saw at least 30 drow just last night.

    At times, it feels like an average high school basketball player is asking Lebron James for basketball tips, and he replies "just give a little juke at the top of the key, take off at the free throw line and dunk the ball." Neat. Completely useless though.

  8. #8
    The Hatchery Rawrargh's Avatar
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    @ lordmond - that's correct, web doesn't have an SR check wich is why it's also the go-to CC for sorcs.

    @OP - I'm currently playing a WF necro/conjuration AM wich is doing really well. While drow and human PM's are able to get a bit higher DC's and some decent self-sustaining, the warforged archmage's quickened reconstructs is gonna make you unstopable as long as you're properly buffed and have SP left.

    I've also got an enchantment/necro specced WF AM wich I haven't played in a while (stopped playing it at level 17, when I TR'd my main into a wizard) wich is also a lot of fun, if you're going for enchantment make sure you max your spell penetration, it's the most important stat since you can always debuff until your CC sticks.

    Also accept that you will not be able to run epic elite on a first life WF wizard (elves get spell pen enhancements and might actually compete) however that is not something that you MUST do, since there's plenty of epic xp to get by running normal and hard.
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    Community Member Kalker's Avatar
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    Yep. I just got several more questions while reading the replies. Haha. Sorry.

    I don't have a Warforged, and I'm at 0 TP right now. I spent the last of it on the Red Fens. And I don't think the WF are unlockable either... so I only have access to fleshies. Oh. By the way, what do you guys think of a Drow AM? Should I pick Drow for the SR and DCs (I think), or Human? (PMs seem sort of.. boring. To me anyway.)

    Second, most Charm spells (spells that temporarily make an enemy an ally) aren't liked as much as spells that disable enemies right? I'm just making a general statement here so I can know which spells to leave in my spellbook and have prepared. If this were true, then I'll get spells like "Hypnotism", "Web", "Otto's Sphere of Dancing", and "Hold Monster" (which I assume includes all enemies in "Hold Person" and more).

    And third. If I were to go AM, what two schools should I focus on? Would it be Enchantment (primary) and Conjuration (secondary)? I've read that most people recommend that, even though the Evocation path looks very tempting.. Lol. 1 SP MM! D:

    And one last thing. The spells "Enervation" and "Energy Drain" give enemies negative levels. Would these 1d4/2d4 negative levels be more effective than.. let's say "Ray of Enfeeblement" or "Ray of Exhaustion", which causes a greater penalty to one/two ability/abilities? Thank you!
    Quote Originally Posted by Handpicked View Post
    When I select [C]haotic good, there is no long debate. It[']s something I feel in my heart, and I will live righteously by my choice even if I am alone in a sea of [N]eutral faces. Even if I take extra damage. Even if I must avoid the gear that all my peers are using. The moral high ground is lonely... just like in life.

  10. #10

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    I can tell you that a scroll-healing human archmage is about a tenth as fun to play as a wf am or a human pm. I really can't stress enough how much fun true self-sufficiency is, and also that I don't consider scrolling to be truly self-sufficient.

    The difference is that when you scroll heal -- no matter what class you are -- it takes so very, very long to switch to the scroll, cast the scroll, switch back to your normal mainhand gear, and then resume the fight. This is made far worse if you have to swap in umd gear to make the scroll work, which you will have to. This is clunky and unfun, but it does work. It just means that during big fights you'll be doing a lot of running away to try and buy enough time to scroll heal.

    By contrast, a pale master almost doesn't think about healing at all, ever, while a wf am simply clicks a heal button whenever his hp is getting low. No running, no slow gear swaps, none of that headache.

    A fleshie archmage is a highly advanced build. As a newcomer to arcanes, I would suggest you go with either wf am or fleshie pm. Since you don't have and can't afford wf, that leaves fleshie pm. May I ask what it is about pale masters you don't like? They have equal crowd control to archmages, and better instakills...

    Quote Originally Posted by Innara View Post
    Also make sure to work on your pell pen. I can't stress this enough. Especially with the new expansion and the abundance of Drow mobs, you need to have high spell in order to land any of your spells at all. From what I gather, for epic elites you want your spell pen in mid 50s for a near 100% success. I hear 40s for most epic hard content. [Numbers need proper confirmation here as I've not been playing my Wizard sine the expansion.]
    38 for epic hard drow, 54 for epic elite drow.

    Which reminds me, if you want to roll up a wizard, you really want epic destinies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalker View Post
    Second, most Charm spells (spells that temporarily make an enemy an ally) aren't liked as much as spells that disable enemies right? I'm just making a general statement here so I can know which spells to leave in my spellbook and have prepared. If this were true, then I'll get spells like "Hypnotism", "Web", "Otto's Sphere of Dancing", and "Hold Monster" (which I assume includes all enemies in "Hold Person" and more).
    Charm and dominate are for soloing and duoing, holds are for grouping.

    And third. If I were to go AM, what two schools should I focus on? Would it be Enchantment (primary) and Conjuration (secondary)? I've read that most people recommend that, even though the Evocation path looks very tempting.. Lol. 1 SP MM! D:
    Most effective is necromancy primary and enchantment secondary. Conjuration is a crowd control school, so taking both it and enchantment reduces your flexibility to being a cc bot. Evocation is fun, but those slas are extremely weak. An evocation am is, in a nutshell, an extremely weak sorceror.

    And one last thing. The spells "Enervation" and "Energy Drain" give enemies negative levels. Would these 1d4/2d4 negative levels be more effective than.. let's say "Ray of Enfeeblement" or "Ray of Exhaustion", which causes a greater penalty to one/two ability/abilities? Thank you!
    About a million times more effective, yes.

  11. #11
    The Hatchery bigolbear's Avatar
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    List of usefull crowd control arcane spells - and associated debufing spells.


    lvl 1:
    (conjuration)
    grease - makes a greasy pudle that people slip and fall on, works on pary members best used when party members are hovering near a trap on a slope freedom of movement negates, imune to slippery surfaces negates. may be set on fire for extra damage.

    (enhcnantment)
    hypnotism - holds enemies in place for aprox 6 seconds or until hit, it also causes enmeies to suffer - 3 to future will saves for a time. useful at low lvls to get away from enemies and useful at high lvls for the debuff effect.

    charm person - works on all living humanoids (humanoids include kobolds, sahaugin, hobgoblins etc - any thing human sised with 2 arms and 2 legs generaly) This is an excelent cheap spell and will maintan validity to cap.

    sleep - puts a group of (weak) creatures to sleep. works fine at low lvls, wont work as well at high lvls. creatures are awoken when attacked but will not awaken due to noise. great spell for stealth operations.

    (necromancy)
    cause fear - target enemey runs away and is slowed by necrotic energy - 10% useful for the simple fact that a passed save or failed save on this spell causes the target to become either feared or shaken which is -2 to all saves, to hit and skill checks. it is very cheep to cast so at high lvl i use this as a debuffer.


    lvl 2:
    (conjuration)
    web - this is a wonderful spell as it does not check spell resistance. at low lvls it is cheap CC - and at hiogh lvls with heighten it is excelent cc for enemies with high spell resistance.

    glitterdust - causes a cloud of sparkling dust - this will blind enemies. excelent spell when working with rogues.

    (enhcantment)
    ottos resistable dance - causes an emeemy to dance - touch range spell.

    hypnotic pattern - dont use this, it gives people migranes. and sleep at lvl 1 is much better any way.

    (evocation)
    electic loop - damage spell that also dazes enemies thaty fail a save. the electirc wil arc and hit multiple enemies. dazed enemies wake up when taking damage.

    (necromancy)
    ghoul touch - touch spell that paralises any living humanoid. this is a great cheap spell for certain builds - necromancy mele mages. avoid generaly.

    command undead - this is essentialy charm person but for undead.

    scare - as cause fear but works on a group of mobs.

    (transmutation)
    ooze puppet - charm ooze.. charmed oozes dont split. great in the harbour, and at lvl 16 to 20 vs living spells.


    lvl3:
    (conjuration)
    sleetstorm - fantastic spell at all lvls, but be aware it effects party members. this can be mitigated by use of the divine spell freedom of movement.

    stinking cloud - another fantastic spell. causes enemies to become nauseated, nauseated enemies cannot do anythign but move around slowly.

    (enchantment)
    deep slumber - as sleep but works on tougher enemeies.

    hold person - this is your first hold spell. works on all humanoids. help enemies take +50% damage from all sources.

    Suggestion - charms an enemy works on all humanoids and most intelligent monsters. requires monster be able to understand verbal comunication.

    (necromancy)
    halt undead - hypnotises undead, intelligent undead get a save, non intelligent undead do not. MOST undead in ddo are intelligent unfortunately. they get a fresh save every time they are attacked - if they are allowed one. This is a great spell when u learn whats inteligent and whats not, unfortunately its not as simple as zombies and skellies arent inteligent - its highly quest dependant.


    lvl4:
    (conjuration)
    solid fog - slows enemies movement a tiny bit, and gives them -5 to refelx saves. a good spell to combine with firewall.

    (enchantment)
    charm monster - charm spell works on almost any enemy, very few are imune.

    crushing despiar - debuff spell, this is the A list of debuff spells.

    (necromancy)
    bestow curse - debuff, works on most bosses.

    enervation - debuff, causes 1-4 neg lvls on a single target, each neg lvl reduces all saves by 1 point. great single target debuff. You will need to learn this one to CC tuff enemies on elite settings. works on orange bosses but not red/purple.

    fear - caues enemies to run with fear and be slowed by necrotic energy - the description says causes them to cower. im going to look into this as there is a big difference. as meles hate chasing running mobs, even slow ones. last time I used it it worked as i describe. This spell is still useful tho as it causes all enemies to suffer -2 to saves due to being either shaken or feared.


    lvl5:
    (conjuration)
    cloud kill - deals acid damge and constitution damage and enemies suffer -20% misschance due to concealment. great spell to use on bosses as most arent imune to acid and the con damage works on them for up to 10 points - which on a boss is a lot of hp. The con damage also makes landing fortitude based spells easier.

    (enchantment)
    feeble mind - causes the targets mental stats to drop to 1. and thus prevents spell casting. great spell to neutralise enemy casters.

    hold monster - hold spell (+50% damage - cant act) works on most monsters apart from red/purple names. single target only.

    mind fog - debuff spell, failing a save vs mind fog causes a stacking -10 to future wil saves for a decent time period. this is a fantastic spell when used in combination with charms, holds and dance spells.

    (evocation)
    prismatic ray - does random effects, 1 of which is turn to stone, another is banish from existance. evocation speced arcanes looking for CC might consider this. non living enemies dont get a save vs the banishment effect so using it from scrolls is effective on certain enemies. (the pillars in lord of blades and titan raids come to mind)

    lvl 6:
    (abjuration)
    greater dispell magic - use this when enemies have cast Freedom of movement, greater heroism or deathward on themselves preventng your chosen CC method.

    (enchantmnet)
    mass suggestion - ass suggestion but AOE.

    symbol of persuation - ass mass sugestion but tied to a symbol - use this as a trap for groups of enemies. good to combine with mind fog.

    (necromancy)
    symbol of fear - as fear but in symbol form.

    (transmutation)
    flesh to stone - turn an enemy to stone, works on all enemies made of flesh including undead and outsiders. does not work on constructs. excelent form of long term cc, this spell lasts a long time once its landed although the enemy is allowed to re save every so often. combine with enervate or energy drain to hold an enemy for a long period - idealy suited to prevent respawns when enemy is killed. Also very useful for taking undead casters, or casters that have deathward out of the fight quickly.


    lvl 7:
    (enchantment)
    hold person mass - as hold person but aoe

    ottos sphere of dancing - AKA dancing ball AKA disco ball. very good spell used by many. it is persistant and lasts a good while. enemies may stop dancing when they pass the save but if they pass through the ball again they may start danging again.

    symbol of stunning - a good spell for those times you want to guard an area or set a trap.

    (evocation)
    prismatic spray - as prismatic ray but a cone rather than a ray so it effects multiple targets.

    (necromancy)
    control undead - dominate a single undead. that undead will fight for you and follow you. can be an excelent spell in certain situations, generaly tho a simple command undead will suffice.

    symbol of weakness - deals massive str damage, this can incapacitate enemies - make them helpless. it also reduces incoming damage by a fair amount, although not technicaly CC it has its place in a CC speced wizards archive.

    waves of exhaustion - slows enemies and deals str and dex damage.


    lvl 8:
    (conjuration)
    incendiary cloud - deals solid fire damage and blind enemies, i think of this as glitter dust on steroids. use when working with rogues.

    summon monster 8 - air elemental, this little beggar can be very good very cheap CC.

    power word stun - stun an enemy (+50% damage cant act) no save, long cool down. This is a great spell in my opinion - used primarily to get stuff that escapes your CC or has very high saves.

    (enchantment)
    charm monster mass - as charm monster but AOE.

    ottos irristable dance - no save touch spell, makes an enemy dance. antoher great spell, especialy for low dc battle mages. usefull for all tho for those enemies with high saves.

    (evocation)
    greater shout - deals a cone of sonic damage that stunns enemies. CC for evokers, but it does have the interesting point that is doesnt check spell res.

    (necromancy)
    symbol of death - mass debuffing via neg lvls. great to use in conjunction with persistant aoe CC.


    lvl9:

    (enchantment)
    dominate monster - this is the dady of the charm spells. it works on almost anything and the monster will follow you and fight loyaly for a decent length of time.

    hold monster mass - this is the dady of the hold spells. holds a group of mobs in place, works on most monsters.

    energy drain - as enervate but its 2-8 neg lvls.




    ---------------------------------------------------

    some spell combos that may interest you:

    1. disco inferno.
    disco ball + firewall. - they dance and they burn.

    2. Gathering the (ch)army.
    mind fog + symbol of persuation. - charmed - for a very long time.

    3. disco melt down.
    disco ball + mind fog + cloudkill + symbol of death. - a deathtrap for sure.

    4. teachers voice.
    crushing despiar(or hypnotise) + mass hold. - use when tank is surrounded by an army.

    5. the boss fight
    bestow curse + cloud kill - -4 to bos's will and reflex, -4 to boss to hit, - 9 to boss fortitude +20% misschane to allies and a shed load of damage.

    6. statue garden
    symbol of death (or enervate or energy drain) + flesh to stone. - make your self a prety statue garden. great for preventing respawns.
    Ex Euro player from devourer: Charaters on orien(Officer of Under Estimated & Nightfox): Wrothgar, Cobolt, Shadeweaver, TheMetal, Metaphysical, Allfred, Razortusk and many more.
    stuff by me: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...02#post4938302

  12. #12

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    I like to combine wall of fire with web and ice storm with dancing ball. The latter is much sturdier.

  13. #13
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Things to note if you decide to roll a fleshy am

    Most healers expect casters to be self sufficient, most likely you will get a rez if you die and that's it unless you are doing something like kiting the dogs thru rain of blades in lob.

    Heal Scrolls can't be quickened and in high level elites that means even with max concentration you will get interupted sometimes.

    You won't have good umd items to help for quite a while, so at best you are probably looking at a umd skill of 12(skillpoints)+2(ish item)+4(stats assumes 8base+2tome+2shipbuff+6item) so 18 + 1d20, Heal scrolls need 40 which you won't hit.(might be off on the number someone will correct me if I'm wrong)

    Over all I'd say that going human am is just going to frustrate you as you won't have a way to heal yourself and for the most part divines will ignore you as casters should be able to heal themselves, remember your cleric doesn't want to be a babysitter.

    Either wait till you have the money for warforged if you are set on am, or go for an elven pm (spell pen enhancements are really needed especially for a first life toon)

  14. #14
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Another option you might consider if you want a little bit of self healing, is halfling. They have dragonmarks available which give you some amount of self healing. You would probably have to give up a secondary spell focus to get them though. I'm sure the 'forumites' would consider this to be a gimpy concept, though, as once you've maxed out all of your epic destinies (i'm sure that's your immediate plan) you will be sub optimal in epic elites.

    As far as charm spells go, my experience is that in actually tough content, in the heroic 1-20 game, the only people who will hate you using these won't need you along with them in the first place. Many people you will group with simply won't be that overpowering. There will actually be a chance that they could even die in some of these quests. Charm spells are a great way to take the heat off of the party when it really gets chaotic.

    One of the first really tough quests i remember playing is one called reclamation, on the island of Ataraxia. This is a free to play quest, at level 10. I have seen lots of party wipes in there on elite, and people new to the quest are invariably shocked when the dwarves in there start hitting them. The smoothest runs i have had on this quest involved casters that charmed a portion of the dwarves, who then engaged the other dwarves. This took the heat off of the party, and allowed them to handle the dwarves at a manageable pace. Of course there is a time and a place for using charms, and you will have to learn where and when that is.

  15. #15
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Things to note if you decide to roll a fleshy am

    Most healers expect casters to be self sufficient, most likely you will get a rez if you die and that's it unless you are doing something like kiting the dogs thru rain of blades in lob.
    Incorrect. Most healers who post in the forums will let you die because they consider you unworthy of saving. Again, don't worry about that as you won't be grouping with them, or more accurately, they won't be grouping with you. Most healers in the actual game will try to keep you alive, because that's part of their role in a functional group dynamic.

  16. #16
    Community Member Kalker's Avatar
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    Okay. Thank you for all of the replies guys. All of my CC-related questions have been answered. I really appreciate the help.
    Quote Originally Posted by Handpicked View Post
    When I select [C]haotic good, there is no long debate. It[']s something I feel in my heart, and I will live righteously by my choice even if I am alone in a sea of [N]eutral faces. Even if I take extra damage. Even if I must avoid the gear that all my peers are using. The moral high ground is lonely... just like in life.

  17. #17
    Community Member Innara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    You won't have good umd items to help for quite a while, so at best you are probably looking at a umd skill of 12(skillpoints)+2(ish item)+4(stats assumes 8base+2tome+2shipbuff+6item) so 18 + 1d20, Heal scrolls need 40 which you won't hit.(might be off on the number someone will correct me if I'm wrong)
    For any cross class skill the max attainable from level ups is 11 (rounded down from 11.5).

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Innara View Post
    For any cross class skill the max attainable from level ups is 11 (rounded down from 11.5).
    Also, he is missing +5 skills from epic levels. So that's:

    11 Skill points + 5 epic levels + 4 from Cha bonus + 4 from Greater Heroism spell or scroll = 24

    If you make an item with Good luck on it (+2 to saves and skills) that's 26.

    Your first Green steel item will probably be a +5 Cha skills with SP and Concordant opposition so 31. Not really too hard to make so far.

    Green steel is a bit of a grind but the raid is very easy and doable even for a first timer, it just takes a bit of time to craft your first item. This is a very good online planner for Greensteel, it helped me a lot when I was a newbie

  19. #19
    Community Member DDOGoz's Avatar
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    TLR all, so...

    Web is also nice because after they fail their reflex save, it's a str check to break free, so it may take caster mobs really long to get out of the web.

    Mass Charm/Suggestion is nice when you solo, to make them kill each other, but in parties it can be really annoying to others. Charmed mobs become your pet, so your party may accidentally heal or buff them, making them harder to kill later. Also, smacking a monster to half health and then have it suddenly turned invincible and unhittable is really jarring and disconcerting... it's like... combatus interruptus.

    Otto's irresistable dance is good cuz there is NO save, just a SR check. only thing is cooldown is 9 seconds.

    Flesh to stone is another possibility. Some spiders are immune to web and charm and dancing, so flesh to stone is the most viable cc.

    It's also good to carry a variety of cc with different saving throws. Clerics have high will save, archers have high reflex save, fighters have high fort save. arcane casters seem to have the worst fort save. So unless your DC is just too uber, sometimes you may need different CC for different mobs.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Either wait till you have the money for warforged if you are set on am, or go for an elven pm (spell pen enhancements are really needed especially for a first life toon)
    This is not true. First life wizards can easily hit 38 spell pen without spending a single AP on spell penetration. Unless you have six past lives and are aiming for 54, I would advise against wizards spending AP on spell pen.

    20 levels
    8 feats
    2 item
    5 destiny autogrants
    3 piercing spellcraft (tier 3 destiny ability)
    ---
    38 spell pen, enough for virtually everything except epic elite drow (which requires 54)

    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    Another option you might consider if you want a little bit of self healing, is halfling. They have dragonmarks available which give you some amount of self healing. You would probably have to give up a secondary spell focus to get them though. I'm sure the 'forumites' would consider this to be a gimpy concept, though, as once you've maxed out all of your epic destinies (i'm sure that's your immediate plan) you will be sub optimal in epic elites.
    I think this is a decent option. First life casters have no business trying to cc epic elite drow anyway. Even better would be half-elf with cleric dilletante for native scroll healing, but I suspect the OP doesn't own half-elves either. Even still, warforged still offer better healing than halflings and helfs.

    One of the first really tough quests i remember playing is one called reclamation, on the island of Ataraxia. This is a free to play quest, at level 10. I have seen lots of party wipes in there on elite, and people new to the quest are invariably shocked when the dwarves in there start hitting them. The smoothest runs i have had on this quest involved casters that charmed a portion of the dwarves, who then engaged the other dwarves. This took the heat off of the party, and allowed them to handle the dwarves at a manageable pace. Of course there is a time and a place for using charms, and you will have to learn where and when that is.
    Agreed completely. I posted this upthread but it's easily missed in one of my many walls of text, but I was stunned last week when I soloed elite reclamation at level for bravery on my wizard trapmonkey and it was a cakewalk with my dozen dominated dwarven slaves swarming the enemy mobs as I entered each room.

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