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  1. #1
    Community Member owens.forum's Avatar
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    Smile Cleric Healing Epic Destiny

    ** Warning: Relatively long post**

    Hello everyone!

    Don't really get to post that often (busy at work, don't get to play much these days), but I read the forums every night just to keep in touch with all the changes due to the recent releases.

    I've read all the posts regarding the lack of a Cleric ED ... some posters pointed out Exalted Angel, Unyielding Sentinel, Magister and even Grandmaster of Flowers as a viable Cleric ED.

    I feel, however, that a divine 'healing' oriented ED might add a little flavor to the game. So have been thinking about this, and here is what I came up with ...

    If we follow the logic behind 'An ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure', my take is that a healing ED will focus more on damage mitigation rather than increasing healing power.

    So playing around with this idea, I came up with the following abilities that go along the lines of helping mitigate damage (most of which are self explanatory):

    1. Stacking DR
    2. Stacking Resists
    3. Stacking Saves
    4. Stacking Healing Amp
    5. Level Drain Immunity
    6. Stacking Dodge

    One epic Healing Ability could be 'Mass Regeneration' (Healing over Time for the party), but I would actually much rather focus on damage mitigation, since Divines already have enough healing tools on hand.

    Just my 0.02 on the topic.

  2. #2
    Community Member pelaaja's Avatar
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    IMO if you want more resists, Grandmaster gives you good saves, and Unyielding Sentinel gives you DR/AC/PRR.

    For a cleric, IMO, there should be a rather to obtain Domains, like in PnP. Heck, it should be with them at the start already...

    Another idea is to focus on positive/negative/fire spell increasing, some DC increasing to evocation and conjuration, and ability to use turns into something powerful.
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  3. #3
    Community Member owens.forum's Avatar
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    Whoops ... may have not made my idea that clear in the OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by owens.forum View Post
    ** Warning: Relatively long post**

    So playing around with this idea, I came up with the following abilities that go along the lines of helping mitigate damage (most of which are self explanatory):

    1. Stacking DR
    2. Stacking Resists
    3. Stacking Saves
    4. Stacking Healing Amp
    5. Level Drain Immunity
    6. Stacking Dodge

    One epic Healing Ability could be 'Mass Regeneration' (Healing over Time for the party), but I would actually much rather focus on damage mitigation, since Divines already have enough healing tools on hand.
    The damage mitigation abilities should affect all members of the party within a specified area of effect when cast.

    Yes, you can get better saves/DR/etc from current EDs, but I don't remember being able to 'buff' your party members with these damage mitigation effects. I may be wrong, though ... haven't read all the ED descriptions on the DDO wiki.

  4. #4
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Exalted Angel does work really well on Clerics IMO, although they miss out on the synergy between Blood and Radiance and the FvS AoV archon.

    Renewal is just insanely good, and Clerics get more out of it than a FvS does (Clerics have higher positive spellpower and are more likely to have healing crit enhancements because healing crits synergize well with the aura but don't synergize well with big healing spells).

  5. #5
    Community Member eachna_gislin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by owens.forum View Post
    ** Warning: Relatively long post**

    Hello everyone!

    Don't really get to post that often (busy at work, don't get to play much these days), but I read the forums every night just to keep in touch with all the changes due to the recent releases.

    I've read all the posts regarding the lack of a Cleric ED ... some posters pointed out Exalted Angel, Unyielding Sentinel, Magister and even Grandmaster of Flowers as a viable Cleric ED.

    I feel, however, that a divine 'healing' oriented ED might add a little flavor to the game. So have been thinking about this, and here is what I came up with ...

    *snip*

    If we follow the logic behind 'An ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure', my take is that a healing ED will focus more on damage mitigation rather than increasing healing power.

    One epic Healing Ability could be 'Mass Regeneration' (Healing over Time for the party), but I would actually much rather focus on damage mitigation, since Divines already have enough healing tools on hand.

    Just my 0.02 on the topic.
    I do think clerics need their own destiny. I disagree that it should be a "healing" destiny.

    We know of 3 possible prestige classes (even if 2 don't exist yet). The Radiant Servant, the Exorcist, and the Warpriest. So I think the destiny should have at least a little something for each possible prestige with a serving of healing on the side.

    I like some of what the OP put above...here's what I've been thinking of, myself, for a cleric destiny in the divine tree:

    1) I'd like to see some options that boosts Force damage, similar to the way Favored Souls got boosts to their Light damage. Blade barrier is very much a divine-oriented spell, yet it was clearly overlooked in Exalted Angel. This will be usefully twist-able for both FvS and Artis (possibly others, don't know who else has force spells).

    2) I'd like to see an ability that gives always on Deathward-like protection from level drain (the OP mentions this as well). Unyielding Sentinel gives always-on Deathblock as a 4th level ability, so that seems about even with this.

    3) I'd like to see a line of "smite"-type effects, using force energy. Both the Exalted Angel and Unyielding Sentinel get smites, but neither are force energy. While positive energy would probably be more thematically correct, force damage would allow a wider range of targets. Damage numbers could be reduced to be balanced.

    4) A self-oriented Divine Vitality that isn't called Divine Vitality. Allows anyone with turns (Clerics, Paladins, Bane of Undeath) to spend those turns on replenishing some amount of their own spellpoints. I'm not sure if this would break some sort of "every destiny needs to be self-contained" rule by accepting Bane of Undeath, but I can't find anything else for clerics to spend. Ideally, Unyielding Sentinel destiny would have given (and spent) the paladin remove disease effect, allowing the cleric destiny the chance to manage turns, but that horse has already left the barn.

    5) I would like to see some healing boosts. Not positive spellpower, that was taken by Exalted Angel. Perhaps something that gives a percentage increase to heals. I've been toying with the thought of outgoing and incoming healing amplification on the lowest tier (making for a good cheap twist). One power that gives +5/10%/15% healing amp, and another that gives +5/10%/15% boost on outgoing spells. This gives folks in the destiny the option to chose one or the other (or both) depending on their needs (healing others or self-healing or both).

    Optional: Instead of a straight 5/10/15, have the boost check the destiny holder's heal skill in some way. Right now the heal skill is deemed "useless". It's clear from the "Outbreak" quest in Eveningstar that the devs are looking for ways to change that opinion. If it could be turned into incoming and outgoing healing amp that would change it overnight. Just off the top of my head, something like every 10-15 points of heal skill could be worth 5% of incoming or outgoing healing amp. Number crunchers to balance.

    Possible bonus marks on this optional: The Gloves of Eternity will presumably be part of the Epic-ification of Gianthold in 2013. Makes them useful at endgame for the heal skill as well as whatever other tasty bonuses they get.

    6) Something that expends a named cure mass spell but gives it the next step up in healing. Expend a mass cure light wounds, heal for 6-16+1/level for the base sp cost of mass cure light, expend a mass cure moderate wounds, heal for 9-24+1/level for the base cost of mass cure moderate, etc. *NOT* affected by meta-magic feats, but affected by any items or destinies or enhancements that boost healing or decrease spell cost. What I'm looking for here is a line that makes boosted healing cheaper for clerics who don't take the Radiant Servant enhancement, and still gives Radiant's viable destiny line. Each mass-target cure spell could have its own spot in the tree (since there's exactly 4 of them). There could be a 3-step boost on the bottom and then the four spells, topped with the cap to the line. Not sure about the balance issues with FvS larger sp pools.

    Optional: Instead of a 3-step % boost on the bottom of the line, give the next step boost to the single target cure serious spell. This makes it viable for rangers and paladins to twist along with the other classes.

    7) The cap of the healing boost line could very nicely finished with the "real" heal - heal self or friend for all damage except 1d4. This would work on pale masters and warforged, but NOT work on enemies. Could include some sort of complicated stack spending effect and/or cooldown.

    Optional: I do like the OP's suggestion of a timed mass regeneration. Instead of a cap heal, I was also thinking of a healing version of Divine Punishment -- a layered cure boosted by all forms of healing buff (except meta-magic feats) that can be laid down in up to three increasing stacks for 16 seconds, each casting cost 25 sp. This would be activated like the radiant servant "burst" -- hitting everyone within a set distance of the destiny holder.

    8) A second cap that lays down a whole lot of pain on something. Not knowing anything about the new prestiges, I won't even bother to speculate, but it should do damage for them. So whatever here...as long as it does damage and both the warpriest and the exorcist would like it.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by eachna_gislin View Post
    I do think clerics need their own destiny. I disagree that it should be a "healing" destiny.
    EA covers some healing, some nuking, and even some melee stuff (though that's better covered by Unyielding or whatever).

    What is NOT covered is anything for a DC-oriented divine caster. Pretty much the only thing for them is to buy up Wisdom on the right side. No other synergistic ED abilities at all.

  7. #7
    Community Member kanbeki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    EA covers some healing, some nuking, and even some melee stuff (though that's better covered by Unyielding or whatever).

    What is NOT covered is anything for a DC-oriented divine caster. Pretty much the only thing for them is to buy up Wisdom on the right side. No other synergistic ED abilities at all.
    A DC oriented divine can pull some powerful twists from other EDs though, there is very little across the entire ED board that helps with healing. On the other side of the coin, are you really just healing in quests? If you pigeonhole yourself can't really expect too much
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  8. #8
    Community Member PNellesen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kanbeki View Post
    A DC oriented divine can pull some powerful twists from other EDs though, there is very little across the entire ED board that helps with healing.
    Personally, I think Exalted Angel is a pretty good destiny for a Divine Caster/Healer, all I'd really like to see is a direct connection from Exalted Angel to Draconic Incarnation, in the same way that Unyielding Sentinel connects to GMoF. It seems there is much more synergy between Exalted Angel and Draconic Incarnation than between Exalted Angel and any of the 4 other destinies you have to level through to get to Draconic (or Magister)
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  9. #9
    Community Member guardianx2009's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    Exalted Angel does work really well on Clerics IMO, although they miss out on the synergy between Blood and Radiance and the FvS AoV archon.

    Renewal is just insanely good, and Clerics get more out of it than a FvS does (Clerics have higher positive spellpower and are more likely to have healing crit enhancements because healing crits synergize well with the aura but don't synergize well with big healing spells).
    Just want to second this.

    - Renewal is also better for clerics because it is boosted by Empower Healing, a feat all clerics should have by now.
    - WIS bonuses work better for Clerics than FVS since it boosts SP & DC, and is enhanced by Endless Faith.
    - Wings + DR10 from Mabar cloak really closes the FvS gap, alot.

    Only thing I notice that's missing is any boosts to Turn Undead. The boosts to caster levels from EA does not apply to Cleric Turn levels. It is currently nigh impossible to turn a CR48 undead.

  10. #10
    2015 DDO Players Council FuzzyDuck81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    Exalted Angel does work really well on Clerics IMO, although they miss out on the synergy between Blood and Radiance and the FvS AoV archon.

    Renewal is just insanely good, and Clerics get more out of it than a FvS does (Clerics have higher positive spellpower and are more likely to have healing crit enhancements because healing crits synergize well with the aura but don't synergize well with big healing spells).
    With the introduction of primal avatar, rejuvenation coccoon (once you work your way to there) is also awesome - took it on my melee fvs/fighter (hes a 12/6/2 thing) & can do most of my self healing just with that... combining that twisted with renewal while in exalted angel destiny i honestly believe that guy (let alone a "proper" healer type) could probably handle dedicated tank healing in a number of raids without too much hassle - at least on normal/hard difficulties.
    I don't mean to come across as unsympathetic - but I am, so I do.

  11. #11
    Community Member bennyson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    EA covers some healing, some nuking, and even some melee stuff (though that's better covered by Unyielding or whatever).

    What is NOT covered is anything for a DC-oriented divine caster. Pretty much the only thing for them is to buy up Wisdom on the right side. No other synergistic ED abilities at all.

    A DC focused divine epic destiny would be nice for clerics. My thoughts on this, however, should be something that focuses on the use of Channel Divinity abilities such as Turn Undead.

    As to my knowledge, there is no divine epic destiny that primarily uses Channel Divinity abilities (Unyielding Sentinel does this but it is not a prime focus).

    That is my thought on this, though the other divine epic destinies cover a lot of ground for clerics that I can see it is difficult for Turbine to add another one.

  12. #12
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    Please, no more healing. Burst, mass heal, renewal, 100 devo and you can heal bad drunk party playing like total morons through 7 world apocalypses already.

    More PRACTICAL and useful spells.
    Make turning useful, you know it IS the "cleric thing".
    Little help with DCs ( even that spell mastery stacking was a godsend ).
    Something interesting ( I know it's hard to imagine but 3 or 4 spells get boring sometimes ), Domains , whatever.
    Spice up low level casting offense and experience ( cause it might be the most off putting or frustrating thing ever for newbies ).

    It's not bard level negligence from Turbine but getting there soon, quote from one conversation talking about hjealzors : "Those three on the server are the only ones stubborn enough to not turn into wizards."
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  13. #13
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    Exalted Angel does work really well on Clerics IMO, although they miss out on the synergy between Blood and Radiance and the FvS AoV archon.

    Renewal is just insanely good, and Clerics get more out of it than a FvS does (Clerics have higher positive spellpower and are more likely to have healing crit enhancements because healing crits synergize well with the aura but don't synergize well with big healing spells).
    Agreed, for that 1% of the time when you need to hjealbot Angel is very strong.

  14. #14
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guardianx2009 View Post
    Just want to second this.

    - Renewal is also better for clerics because it is boosted by Empower Healing, a feat all clerics should have by now.
    IMO, FvS needs EH as much as clerics, with no healing enchancements their heals are weak.
    - WIS bonuses work better for Clerics than FVS since it boosts SP & DC, and is enhanced by Endless Faith.
    IMO Wis works as good for both. FvS needs only 19 cha (unless he is using divine might). More than 19 cha is just 29SP per 2 points (assuming pure), so not that useful.
    - Wings + DR10 from Mabar cloak really closes the FvS gap, alot.

    Only thing I notice that's missing is any boosts to Turn Undead. The boosts to caster levels from EA does not apply to Cleric Turn levels. It is currently nigh impossible to turn a CR48 undead.
    True.

  15. #15
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    I hate when people try to say destiny X= class A. Its pointless. (and I can't stop laughing at people still calling shiradi ranger ED).

    Anyway, I don't think we need more hjeal meh EDs.

    I think that both EA and US are good for clerics, EA for casters, US for melees.

    New divine destiny should come ASAP, packed with 1 or 2 things for healing, preferably take mobs' HP and apply it to party thing, and lots of non hjealing related stuff, like some undead turning boosting, some extra damage, some DCs etc.

    Also, IMO unyelding sentinel stuff giving turns should also increase effective turning level.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by bennyson View Post
    A DC focused divine epic destiny would be nice for clerics. My thoughts on this, however, should be something that focuses on the use of Channel Divinity abilities such as Turn Undead.
    No reason such a new ED couldn't do both; Magister has both it's school-boosting line and it's "Sigil" line.

    I'll be a broken record on one point, though: they should just make the EDs less class-specific. Make anything that gives caster levels give them to everything, not just specific classes. Make the right-hand ability boosts work for all abilities. Presto!

    If it didn't lose me 5 caster levels and 6 Wisdom, I'd play a Magister Cleric.

  17. #17
    Community Member bennyson's Avatar
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    A divine epic destiny that is focused on DCs and Channel Divinity abilities? That is one of the things the other divine destines cant do, although since this is most likely based on the cleric class it should have some healing as well.

  18. #18
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    Clerics are getting their own ED eventually, although it is more Warpriest in nature called Divine Crusader. Exalted Angel works just fine for healing, I don't see why there would be any complaints and imo if they buffed it more your healing would just be too powerful.

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