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  1. #41
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orakio View Post
    There are ways to balance this while maintaining the burst feel Trudh. For Example if many shot capped at 3x arrows instead of 4x but the rate of fire was increased by 30%. Still very high burst during many shot(nearly identical), with better damage outside of it but NOT more than currently during many shot.

    Like you highlighted, there are some VERY nice benefits to many shot, but the ability is both a boon and hindrance to ranged overall.
    Im not sure why people seem to think that many shot needs to be taken down a notch in order to give us better ROF in the first place, sans having to have 6 monk levels on an archer. If they did this right, monks would have gotten 10k stars and rangers would get a 10k arrows version, which could be taken as a fighter combat feat if someone wants to build an AA that isnt depending on ranger levels.

  2. #42
    Community Member Brennie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Im not sure why people seem to think that many shot needs to be taken down a notch in order to give us better ROF in the first place, sans having to have 6 monk levels on an archer. If they did this right, monks would have gotten 10k stars and rangers would get a 10k arrows version, which could be taken as a fighter combat feat if someone wants to build an AA that isnt depending on ranger levels.
    The sole purpose of better Rate of Fire, is so that archer can have atleast somewhat competitive DPS when not using "burst" options (10k stars/Manyshot). And if archers ever achieve somewhat decent DPS outside of burst modes, then DPS while using burst modes would be ridiculously unbalanced.

    Imagine being only mildily behind a THF fighter for damage, say 80% or so. Except that for 20 seconds of every 2 minutes your damage jumps to 320% of theirs (manyshot), and then for 30 seconds out of every minute, it levels off somwhere around 160-240% of theirs (10k stars... not sure of the actual math here, but i believe averaging 2-3 arrows per shot is about right?).

    Basically put, if you want good all-the-time usage out of archery, you can't also have abilties that double, triple,or quadruple your damage output. Imagine if barbarians had a level 6 ability that was the same thing as manyshot, but was 4 hits per melee swing for 20 seconds every 2 minutes. How ridiculously overpowered would that be?

    Personally, i think Manyshot needs to have an attack speed decrease built into it. more arrows per volley, but at aslower rate, making it closer to double damage than quadruple damage. its cooldown and duration could be re-examined (lower cooldown, higher duration), and archery as a whole could potentially get buffed to be less horribad outside of its burst options (Assuming 10k stars gets tweaked as well). manyshot woudl still be a fun and useful burst damage ability, it just wouldn't be the stumbling block preventing Archery from being "Only noobs don't break out melee weapons between manyshots", like it is right now.

  3. #43
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brennie View Post
    The sole purpose of better Rate of Fire, is so that archer can have atleast somewhat competitive DPS when not using "burst" options (10k stars/Manyshot). And if archers ever achieve somewhat decent DPS outside of burst modes, then DPS while using burst modes would be ridiculously unbalanced.
    This is incorrect. Melee have competitive DPS when not bursting as well. They also have insane burst modes, especially with destinies ramping up crit multipliers yet again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brennie View Post
    Imagine being only mildily behind a THF fighter for damage, say 80% or so. Except that for 20 seconds of every 2 minutes your damage jumps to 320% of theirs (manyshot), and then for 30 seconds out of every minute, it levels off somwhere around 160-240% of theirs (10k stars... not sure of the actual math here, but i believe averaging 2-3 arrows per shot is about right?).
    Until the THF fighter uses their bursts and theyre right back in the game. More like being 80% of THF when both are not bursting and 130% of THF when both are bursting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brennie View Post
    Basically put, if you want good all-the-time usage out of archery, you can't also have abilties that double, triple,or quadruple your damage output. Imagine if barbarians had a level 6 ability that was the same thing as manyshot, but was 4 hits per melee swing for 20 seconds every 2 minutes. How ridiculously overpowered would that be?
    This is a myth, proven wrong in many other games. Everyone gets bursts, not just the archers. Barbarians bursts are sick, and so are fighters, and they can both use them far more often than every 2 min.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brennie View Post
    Personally, i think Manyshot needs to have an attack speed decrease built into it. more arrows per volley, but at aslower rate, making it closer to double damage than quadruple damage. its cooldown and duration could be re-examined (lower cooldown, higher duration), and archery as a whole could potentially get buffed to be less horribad outside of its burst options (Assuming 10k stars gets tweaked as well). manyshot woudl still be a fun and useful burst damage ability, it just wouldn't be the stumbling block preventing Archery from being "Only noobs don't break out melee weapons between manyshots", like it is right now.
    The entire idea that a 20 second burst every 2 min would need to be nerfed to up the rate of fire for regular archery to maintain balance is a myth. Turbine is afraid of making ranged competitive, and some of this fear has rubbed off on some of the players. If fighters get butthurt over it, theres always the helves angel build, and if artys get butthurt over it, they can roll half elves and take manyshot as a feat. You already specced all other ranged feats needed to qualify for it if you built it right anyhow. My arty preps a bow with deadly and insightful damage when entering quests and uses many shot regularly. So did my TR when I was running fighter lives. I dont see what the issue is, because this isnt a vanilla game where only certain classes can have this ability if people think its so powerful and unbalanced.
    Last edited by Chai; 08-31-2012 at 09:36 PM.

  4. #44
    Community Member ShadowFlash's Avatar
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    Can't believe I'm agreeing with Chai here but melee's have more options for increasing RoF and/or DPS when compared to ranged. Things like Fabricator's proc. and the most important one, doublestrike!

    I will say, ranged doesn't need a buf, but something to equalize things a bit for "traditional" AA's with the obnoxious 10k stars splash would be appreciated. FotW adrenaline dumping on manyshot with a STR/DEX based AA is a nice example of something extra for non-monkchers, but there really should be a heroic mechanic as well, and again...soley burst DPS potential just doesn't cut it.

    While we're on the subject, Archer's Focus really needs a movement penalty while in "stance" instead of the current "twitch and you lose your stack" mechanic. The wife (chronic AA) and I, when duoing...tend to be methodical (read:slow) and even we can barely find a niche use for it.

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  5. #45
    Community Member Brennie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    This is incorrect. Melee have competitive DPS when not bursting as well.

    Until the THF fighter uses their bursts and theyre right back in the game. More like being 80% of THF when both are not bursting and 130% of THF when both are bursting.
    What do you consider "burst" for melee? Because my Monkcher has full teir damage boost, teir 1 haste boost, and all the same outside buffs as teh rest of my party (bardsongs, haste, whathaveyou). And he can active all of them them at the same time, including manyshot. And even if he couldn't, melee "bursts" do not Quadruple their number of hits for 20 seconds every 2 minutes with unlimited usage between shrines. I think you are severely underestimating exactly how big of a swing normal pewpew compared to manyshot actually is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    This is a myth, proven wrong in many other games. Everyone gets bursts, not jsut the arhers. Barbarians bursts are sick, and so are fighters, and they can both use them far more often than every 2 min.
    Barbs and fighters do get bursts, certainly, mostly in the form of damage/haste boost (Kensai get power surge too. Barb rages aren't bursts when they can use them practically 100% of the time at high level IMHO). However, none of those boosts can give them even twice as much damage output over their duration, let alone FOUR TIMES AS MUCH.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The entire idea that a 20 second burst every 2 min would need to be nerfed to up the rate of fire for regular archery to maintain balance is a myth. (...)
    Its possible we're miscommunicating here, so let me re-state my case:

    We agree that manyshot is quite good right now, do we not? (I would say it is borderline too powerful, if characters with no investment in archery can increase their DPS for 20 seconds by using manyshot - However, that is not the focus of this question right now.

    Do we also agree that outside of manyshot (and 10k stars) that Archery is "lacking" (I'll be calling this "baseline" archery from here on out, for clarity)?

    If this is the case, and moves are made to increase baseline archery via rate of fire increase, but manyshot is left untouched, then the buff to baseline archery will also buff manyshot, making a "Quite Good" ability into something *even better*. And for the sake of game balance, i cannot fathom how this could possibly be a good thing.

    So to reiterate my position: I do not see how baseline archery can be improved without manyshot getting tweaked downward to compensate (And not necessarily making it "nerfed" compared to what it is right now, but certainly not elevating it it any higher than it currently is).


    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    (...)Turbine is afraid of making ranged competitive, and some of this fear has rubbed off on some of the players. If fighters get butthurt over it, theres always the helves angel build, and if artys get butthurt over it, they can roll half elves and take manyshot as a feat. You already specced all other ranged feats needed to qualify for it if you built it right anyhow. My arty preps a bow with deadly and insightful damage when entering quests and uses many shot regularly. So did my TR when I was running fighter lives. I dont see what the issue is, because this isnt a vanilla game where only certain classes can have this ability if people think its so powerful and unbalanced.
    I don't know if its relevant to this discussion, but my main character is a multi-TR archer, so archery is something near and dear to my heart, and not something I'm afraid of overshadowing my caster/melee/whatever.

    However, I think the argument that "if archery becomes too good, people should just build for archery on all their melee/repeater toons" is not a very convincing one, any more than "if melee becomes too good (comparative to archery, anyway) then people should just build for melee on all their archer toons". Yes, everyone can theoretically have manyshot. That doesn't make it any better if the feat is entirely imbalanced anymore than making cleave automatically behead all enemies in its arc would make it better since its a feat open to everyone.

    TL;DR
    - Perhaps my view is simplistic, but i don't see how archery can have good all-the-time damage, if we can routinely quadruple that damage for short periods (especially if that quadrupling also quadruples just about every other source of bonus damage in the game, excluding archers focus)

    EDIT: Just so we're all on the same page, my "perfect vision" of archery would be to have manyshot feel more like 10k stars (up more often, though slightly less powerful), while baseline archery felt more like... i dunno THF w/ q-staff build (for approximate dps), or using a repeater (for approximate attack speed at higher levels), or something. Would this honestly be so terrible?
    Last edited by Brennie; 08-31-2012 at 10:00 PM.

  6. #46
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    I'm sorry, I guess I'm a noob because I rarely swap to melee anymore on my archer?

    From feedback I understand that melee DPS is up to about 650-700 sustainable. Workings that ive done put archer DPS at 500-550 in Shiradi I think not including PLs, best gear or Archers Focus.

    Considering that the comparison here is between archers and fighters/barbarians I'm pretty happy if that conclusion is correct as archers bring so many other things to the table. If the comparison is with paladins/rangers then I'd imagine it would be closer.

    I'm not sure what Adel's damage is at in practice but I'm being forced to consider whether claw set should be an always on item as I'm regularly pulling aggro even though I always use 10k stars before Manyshot and don't have haste boost yet (5 more fate points, groan). This worked quite well in EH Chrono (9-10 arcanes in group, lost aggro to air Sorc on acid form), EE rusted blades optional with melee on back while I shuffle/kited and EH Von5 (held aggro fine vs the golem). Adel is not built as a tank but ~220% hamp, moderate AC, ghostly, scrolled displace, ~700 HP and archers focus seems to work well, bit tricky to juggle madstone, stances and displace though.
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  7. #47
    Community Member orakio's Avatar
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    @Chai

    This is a myth, proven wrong in many other games. Everyone gets bursts, not just the archers. Barbarians bursts are sick, and so are fighters, and they can both use them far more often than every 2 min.
    Once again you keep referencing many other games and it leads me to question how much you have played those "many other games". I can tell you this, there is no MMO that I have played in which anyone has an ability comparable to Many Shot, a short duration moderate cooldown buff for 300% increased damage essentially. It is a uniquely potent effect in DDO and uniquely potent for characters in other MMO's as well.

    Even in power creeping mmo's the burst you are trying to reference is almost universally a singular ability rather than buffs that last for, situationally, solid to good amounts of time.

    Make the claims that you want, the closer than ranged damage approaches melee damage the less potent that many shot can be to maintain the balance that you are seeking. This game would be no better served if ranged and melee damage situations were reversed than it is now. The disparity between ranged and melee overall dps output is a real issue, but you should also realize that the potency of these types of effects are part of the issue.

  8. #48
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brennie View Post
    What do you consider "burst" for melee? Because my Monkcher has full teir damage boost, teir 1 haste boost, and all the same outside buffs as teh rest of my party (bardsongs, haste, whathaveyou). And he can active all of them them at the same time, including manyshot. And even if he couldn't, melee "bursts" do not Quadruple their number of hits for 20 seconds every 2 minutes with unlimited usage between shrines. I think you are severely underestimating exactly how big of a swing normal pewpew compared to manyshot actually is.
    +8 str, tier 4 haste boost, tier 4 damage boost. TWF is already more than 2x ROF of archery. The fact that their bursts are more potent puts them even further ahead in ROF.



    Quote Originally Posted by Brennie View Post
    Barbs and fighters do get bursts, certainly, mostly in the form of damage/haste boost (Kensai get power surge too. Barb rages aren't bursts when they can use them practically 100% of the time at high level IMHO). However, none of those boosts can give them even twice as much damage output over their duration, let alone FOUR TIMES AS MUCH.
    Whats archerys answer to x9 crit multiplier? Nothing. The combo that gets that can also AOE better than IPS, STILL haste boost as well as your archer, toss on tier 4 damage boost,



    Quote Originally Posted by Brennie View Post
    Its possible we're miscommunicating here, so let me re-state my case:

    We agree that manyshot is quite good right now, do we not? (I would say it is borderline too powerful, if characters with no investment in archery can increase their DPS for 20 seconds by using manyshot - However, that is not the focus of this question right now.

    Do we also agree that outside of manyshot (and 10k stars) that Archery is "lacking" (I'll be calling this "baseline" archery from here on out, for clarity)?

    If this is the case, and moves are made to increase baseline archery via rate of fire increase, but manyshot is left untouched, then the buff to baseline archery will also buff manyshot, making a "Quite Good" ability into something *even better*. And for the sake of game balance, i cannot fathom how this could possibly be a good thing.
    Good, archery needs something "even better" - people using fury are running around doing huge crits and people using LD are running around with x9 crit axes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brennie View Post
    So to reiterate my position: I do not see how baseline archery can be improved without manyshot getting tweaked downward to compensate (And not necessarily making it "nerfed" compared to what it is right now, but certainly not elevating it it any higher than it currently is).
    Because archery is in a position right now where there doesnt need to be a trade off in order to make it better. People keep trying to iterate that many shot being really good is somehow holding the entire style back, and its because of this FEAR that the entire potential will never be unlocked. Like I stated before, if people who play melee mains got butthurt over manyshot being even better than it was for 20 sec/2min of the time they casn use it, they can build it into their toon. We are not playing a vanilla style WOW game where if we buff hunters its ONLY hunters that get the buff. Buffing a combat style means anyone who wants to spec into that combat style may do so. There are plenty of kensai longbow, cleric archers, rangers, bard archers, monk archers, rogue archers, bow-barians - etc that it wouldnt be hurting any class to buff archery. If people want the ability they can spec into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brennie View Post
    I don't know if its relevant to this discussion, but my main character is a multi-TR archer, so archery is something near and dear to my heart, and not something I'm afraid of overshadowing my caster/melee/whatever.

    However, I think the argument that "if archery becomes too good, people should just build for archery on all their melee/repeater toons" is not a very convincing one, any more than "if melee becomes too good (comparative to archery, anyway) then people should just build for melee on all their archer toons". Yes, everyone can theoretically have manyshot. That doesn't make it any better if the feat is entirely imbalanced anymore than making cleave automatically behead all enemies in its arc would make it better since its a feat open to everyone.
    Saying manyshot would be unbalanced if archery got buffed is a myth. Burst ROF for 20 seconds when 50 str behind a melee doesnt have the impact people think it does anymore. WHen the str disparity was alot smaller, manyshot was alot better in comparison, but nowdays with x9 crits and 100+ str melee toons, the whole "manyshot is uber and its holding archery back" argument is starting to lose its validity. When cap 14 was the endgame and max str was around 48 and x4 crits were king, manyshot ruled. Nowdays we have melee at 88 str and x9 crits but manyshot has barely changed (fires one more arrow per shot at 16BAB). It isnt that manyshot is too powerful that holds archery back - its that there are still people who will not let go of an argument that was valid when gianthold was endgame, combined with Turbines fear of making archery actually compete with melee, that is holding it down.


    Quote Originally Posted by Brennie View Post

    TL;DR
    - Perhaps my view is simplistic, but i don't see how archery can have good all-the-time damage, if we can routinely quadruple that damage for short periods (especially if that quadrupling also quadruples just about every other source of bonus damage in the game, excluding archers focus)
    That burst is used 10% of the time, maximum. Just because its off cooldown doesnt mean it gets used instantly either. Waiting for the juicy opportunity situation rather than wasting it on 1 or 2 mobs is what most good players will do. Every other style (save for maybe throwing lol) gets good all around damage and crazy burst damage. Its time for archery to join that club.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brennie View Post
    EDIT: Just so we're all on the same page, my "perfect vision" of archery would be to have manyshot feel more like 10k stars (up more often, though slightly less powerful), while baseline archery felt more like... i dunno THF w/ q-staff build (for approximate dps), or using a repeater (for approximate attack speed at higher levels), or something. Would this honestly be so terrible?
    Yes, it would, as it would put archery in a position sorely lacking compared to the new 90 str x9 crit melee monsters these destinies have produced. Repeater ROF is a start, but wanting it to compare to a qstaff in terms of DPS goes the wrong directon.

  9. #49
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orakio View Post
    @Chai
    Once again you keep referencing many other games and it leads me to question how much you have played those "many other games". I can tell you this, there is no MMO that I have played in which anyone has an ability comparable to Many Shot, a short duration moderate cooldown buff for 300% increased damage essentially. It is a uniquely potent effect in DDO and uniquely potent for characters in other MMO's as well .
    Manyshot was ganked straight out of EQ (trueshot disc) just like the double attack/double strike combat system was.

    Theres no other MMO ive played where the disparity of stats between pure melee and hybrid melee/archers is 50% either. There are alot of 90 str barbarians and 44-46 str rangers and pallys.

    Quote Originally Posted by orakio View Post
    Even in power creeping mmo's the burst you are trying to reference is almost universally a singular ability rather than buffs that last for, situationally, solid to good amounts of time.

    Make the claims that you want, the closer than ranged damage approaches melee damage the less potent that many shot can be to maintain the balance that you are seeking. This game would be no better served if ranged and melee damage situations were reversed than it is now. The disparity between ranged and melee overall dps output is a real issue, but you should also realize that the potency of these types of effects are part of the issue.
    The whole point I am making is that we shouldnt be relying on manyshot to maintain that balance int he first place. Melee has awesome bursts and is solid when not bursting. Archery has to maintain burst or it doesnt compete. This needs to change. The claim that archery burst would need to be nerfed in order to initiate this change is a myth.

    People keep posting this fear of buffing ranged will make it better than melee. This is a myth generated back in the gianthold endgame cap 14 days when max str was around upper 40s and x4 crits were king. It was a valid argument back then but is not valid now. The game is completely different in scale. In order for archery to improve, people will have to let this fear go. Many shot improved by 1 arrow at BAB 16 since back then. Meanwhile in other news, pure melee went from 48 str MAX to 88 str SUSTAINABLE and over 100 str MAX, and from x4 to x9 crit, and that x9 crit can be had on two handers. Yet people continue to cling to this 4 year arguement like its still true in todays game, when it certainly is not.

    People are more than willing to point to how archery improved in the past year, but they shrug off the information that melee improvements completely trumped archery improvements. Since melee was already ahead before all this happened, its now currently even further ahead. Many shot is a good ability but it is no longer ahead of everything else like it used to be. Its time for Turbine to let go of the fear of powerful ranged toons and improve archery.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    People are more than willing to point to how archery improved in the past year, but they shrug off the information that melee improvements completely trumped archery improvements. Since melee was already ahead before all this happened, its now currently even further ahead. Many shot is a good ability but it is no longer ahead of everything else like it used to be. Its time for Turbine to let go of the fear of powerful ranged toons and improve archery.
    Couldn't agree more.

  11. #51

    Default a few points

    For what it's worth, here is my feedback.

    I have been playing "archer" characters quite a bit since Menace was launched in June. I have leveled three characters to what I feel is their "cap", which is level 25 with a couple of level 1 twists. Full disclosure: each character (except Moarcanio) uses the Epic Bow of Earth, which is easily available and in my opinion, the best bow in the game, with the possible exception of the alchemical one from epic Cannith raids.

    Here are their names:
    1. Nicomo, legend TR, 14 ranger/6 fighter. Tempest II, Shiradi Champion.
    2. Moarcanio, champion AA, 12 ranger, 6 fighter, 2 rogue. Trapsmith, longbow kensai. Shiradi Champion.
    3. Mosashae, champion AA / virtuoso II, 12 bard/6 ranger/2 rogue. Open locks and evasion with the rogue levels. max Fatesinger.

    Couple of points:

    I. Damage mitigation. They DO take less damage than their melee counterparts, and for three reasons. Dodge, Displacement, and DR (Feyform, DR: 7 cold iron).

    I don't know why people don't play pure elves much, but I love the advantages. At level 25 their Displacement lasts about 2:30 and can be used 4-5 times per rest, depending on enhancements. With the plethora of shrines (I wouldn't mind seeing MANY shrines removed), it means they are displaced for every big fight.

    No DPS fighter or barbarian can match their 14% dodge. And lastly, DR 7: cold iron is not shabby.

    II. DPS. I don't play my rangers as if their bows were super-glued to their hands. While manyshot is in cooldown, use a couple of nice longswords (Nicomo dual wields Oathblades, but a couple of Star of Day or other weapons would suit just fine) and your DPS contribution will be fine. In endgame, Epic Elite content, Manyshot is not overpowered or underpowered, and if it ain't broke don't fix it.

    In discussions like these, I propose getting specific. Meaning: name specific quests on Epic Elite (everything else is too easy and basically just about everything works for everyone) where you think a fighter-barbarian outshines a ranger.

    I know that Mosashae contributed mightily in the all-optionals run of the Epic Elite House of Rusted Blades quest with Kazarach (spelling?) on Khyber. The barbarian (and his healer hireling) and rogue who joined us died almost instantly in a big fight. Kazarach, if I remember, was a human artificer.

    In another test, Mosashae did Epic Elite runs of Overgrowth for the optional "Wode" chests and succeeded with his party. Not just any group can pull that off consistently. After a few runs, Ardyl in the party ended up pulling the level 25 Wall of Wood shield. I'm glad Mosashae could contribute.

    In other Epic Elite quests, Von3 as well as most of the Faerun quests, my archers and rangers do quite while. "Doing well" means completing the quest while keeping consumption of elixirs and other consummables to a minimum.

    Lastly, it's kind of a pet peeve of mine, but many players frequently refer to their toons or "builds" (I prefer "characters") as being in competition with others in the same party. Competition for kill count, competition to see who is doing the most damage. This kind of resentment is most certainly a sickness and care should be taken to minimize it.

    Building teamwork, not focusing on competition, by running Epic Elite content is probably the best cure.
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  12. #52
    Community Member orakio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Manyshot was ganked straight out of EQ (trueshot disc) just like the double attack/double strike combat system was.
    I am not personally familiar with EQ but i looked up trueshot discipline. 1hour cooldown, 2 minute buff for +105% to ranged damage. That leaves you with a 105% damage increase on a 3.333% uptime. Manyshot is a 300% increase on a 16.667% uptime. The two still aren't even remotely close in comparison of the burst increase provided.

    Theres no other MMO ive played where the disparity of stats between pure melee and hybrid melee/archers is 50% either. There are alot of 90 str barbarians and 44-46 str rangers and pallys.
    Agreed, there is a larger amount of disparity in this game than there is in most other mmo's. That gap could afford to be closed some.

    The whole point I am making is that we shouldnt be relying on manyshot to maintain that balance int he first place. Melee has awesome bursts and is solid when not bursting. Archery has to maintain burst or it doesnt compete. This needs to change. The claim that archery burst would need to be nerfed in order to initiate this change is a myth.
    No it isn't a myth. It is an opinion, one that many people shared. If WITHOUT manyshot ranged and melee were 100% equivalent damage could you honestly tell me manyshot, in it's current incarnation, would ever be balanced for this game? I am not an advocate of removal of manyshot or an advocate of holding ranged back, but you must understand that the potency of manyshot is so great that leaving it as is and ignoring its effect while trying to balance combat systems would cause a ton of problems.

    People keep posting this fear of buffing ranged will make it better than melee. This is a myth generated back in the gianthold endgame cap 14 days when max str was around upper 40s and x4 crits were king. It was a valid argument back then but is not valid now. The game is completely different in scale. In order for archery to improve, people will have to let this fear go. Many shot improved by 1 arrow at BAB 16 since back then. Meanwhile in other news, pure melee went from 48 str MAX to 88 str SUSTAINABLE and over 100 str MAX, and from x4 to x9 crit, and that x9 crit can be had on two handers. Yet people continue to cling to this 4 year arguement like its still true in todays game, when it certainly is not.

    People are more than willing to point to how archery improved in the past year, but they shrug off the information that melee improvements completely trumped archery improvements. Since melee was already ahead before all this happened, its now currently even further ahead. Many shot is a good ability but it is no longer ahead of everything else like it used to be. Its time for Turbine to let go of the fear of powerful ranged toons and improve archery.
    I have no fear at all of buffing ranged combat. The numbers you reference though are for specific builds of specific class + ed combination. I can tell you right now a melee paladin is not seeing x9 crits with 100 str. Neither is a melee rogue, or ranger, or druid, or even fighter(although they do get pretty well up there). Those are numbers for a Legendary Dreadnought barb using great axes only. To compare ranged combat against all melee NOW you wouldn't see as much of a discrepancy in overall damage as you are trying to indicate. The only cases where you do see that difference really is trying to compare against FB barbs, and to a lesser extent Kensai Fighters.

    Personally I don't think melee improvements in general have trumped ranged improvements, but SOME of the melee classes that were already leading dps have stayed at the top of the dps foodchain. People always point out the barbs and fighters and forget about all the melee classes that struggle behind them.

  13. #53
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orakio View Post
    I am not personally familiar with EQ but i looked up trueshot discipline. 1hour cooldown, 2 minute buff for +105% to ranged damage. That leaves you with a 105% damage increase on a 3.333% uptime. Manyshot is a 300% increase on a 16.667% uptime. The two still aren't even remotely close in comparison of the burst increase provided.
    Semantics and nothing more. Also note that with alternate advancement in EQ a player could lower the cooldown significantly and also raise the ROF and damage significantly. It got to the point where the raid group would get to a really tough room and the rangers would all just use their trueshot disc and take it out. Rooms designed with 70 man raids in mind were trivialized by this.

    Quote Originally Posted by orakio View Post
    Agreed, there is a larger amount of disparity in this game than there is in most other mmo's. That gap could afford to be closed some.
    And this means that even if archery had the same rate of attack as THF it stil wouldnt be nearly as powerful.

    Quote Originally Posted by orakio View Post
    No it isn't a myth. It is an opinion, one that many people shared. If WITHOUT manyshot ranged and melee were 100% equivalent damage could you honestly tell me manyshot, in it's current incarnation, would ever be balanced for this game? I am not an advocate of removal of manyshot or an advocate of holding ranged back, but you must understand that the potency of manyshot is so great that leaving it as is and ignoring its effect while trying to balance combat systems would cause a ton of problems.
    Its a myth, based on fear that archery might be able to compete. Manyshot is a burst that can be used AT BEST 10% of the time. Unless players are turning it on to kill one or two mobs simply because its off cooldown, it doesnt even get used 10% of the time. Why are people still afraid of this?

    Even with equivilent ROF ranged would not be 100% damage to melee wen not bursting, due to the 40-50 point str gap and power attack damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by orakio View Post
    I have no fear at all of buffing ranged combat. The numbers you reference though are for specific builds of specific class + ed combination. I can tell you right now a melee paladin is not seeing x9 crits with 100 str. Neither is a melee rogue, or ranger, or druid, or even fighter(although they do get pretty well up there). Those are numbers for a Legendary Dreadnought barb using great axes only. To compare ranged combat against all melee NOW you wouldn't see as much of a discrepancy in overall damage as you are trying to indicate. The only cases where you do see that difference really is trying to compare against FB barbs, and to a lesser extent Kensai Fighters.
    Very popular builds that lots of capped destiny level 25s use - regardless of how specific it is if you want to talk many shot up like its this almighty powerful thing still you have to compare it in relation to when that fear based argument started, to now. Its started back in the cap 14 days when manyshot was BY FAR the best burst ability. It no longer is.

    And as long as we are talking about specific builds, why is it that a well built archer has to have 6 levels of monk, and if they dont they even fall further behind?

    Quote Originally Posted by orakio View Post
    Personally I don't think melee improvements in general have trumped ranged improvements, but SOME of the melee classes that were already leading dps have stayed at the top of the dps foodchain. People always point out the barbs and fighters and forget about all the melee classes that struggle behind them.
    Really?

    Rogue assassins - ahead of fighters and barbs on singe targets.
    Helves angel build - which can do kensai-esque melee damage and use manyshot as often as regular archers.
    Monks - not necessarily struggling nowdays w/ high DC stuns and easy access to EiN.

    Paladins and rangers need some love, but archery numbers wise is comparable to a tempest with the same str score TWFing +5 longswords with no effects. This has been shown on these forums several times now.

    Whats archerys answer for x3 moar crits, +6 tactics, and cleaves that add x[w] damage at will?

    Whats archerys answer for the entire fury destiny?

    Shiradi does not provide for archery what these 2 destinies provide for melee in terms of numbers. Melee has pulled even further ahead of ranged than it was previous to U14.

    Melee has higher attack rate + 40-50 more str + power attack damage. Only needs to build for 2 stats, str and con, where now archery needs 4 - str, wis, dex, and con. Melee has to invest less feats to get much greater damage numbers. And now you guys are talking about needing to nerf many shot - the one thing that even puts ranged on par with melee, in order to give ranged a decent ROF? No sir - ranged will not be balanced with melee until people let go of this 4 year old fear based argument that was hatched back when reavers fate was endgame.
    Last edited by Chai; 09-03-2012 at 12:48 PM.

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    Community Member orakio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Semantics and nothing more. Also note that with alternate advancement in EQ a player could lower the cooldown significantly and also raise the ROF and damage significantly. It got to the point where the raid group would get to a really tough room and the rangers would all just use their trueshot disc and take it out. Rooms designed with 70 man raids in mind were trivialized by this.
    Way to totally dismiss an argument because you don't agree with it. The numbers I posted weren't semantics. Manyshot is almost 15x as effective as trueshot discipline between the uptime and the potency increase generated. Trying to claim that trueshot discipline somehow invalidates the assertion that manyshot is unique in its potency is false as the numbers just don't add up and you were unable to provide a single other example. Sorry.

    And this means that even if archery had the same rate of attack as THF it stil wouldnt be nearly as powerful.
    It means that if archery had the same attack rate as THF manyshot would cause its attack rate, over the duration and assuming constant combat (an assumption that helps your argument) to be overall 50% larger than THF. This is due to 300% increase on a 16.667 uptime creating ~50% additional attacks over the course of the cooldown. That would be broken considering the implications of the sustained massive burst it generates and DDO's tendency to have large downtime between combats increasing the relative uptime of manyshot.

    Its a myth
    Per Meriam Websters dictionary:
    Myth. Noun:

    1. A traditional story, esp. one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically...
    2. Such stories collectively

    It isn't a myth, it is a statement of opinion. Your repetitive use of the word myth doesn't make it one, nor is your statement of arguments against manyshot being "based on fear that archery might be able to compete." true either, that is just your opinion on the matter. I am totally fine with archery competing and in no way afraid of it doing so. I however don't think that ranged needs to retain a +3 arrow many shot with 16.667% uptime if it's attack rate was matched to that of THF.

    Manyshot is a burst that can be used AT BEST 10% of the time.
    Many shot has a mathematical minimum 16.667% uptime, that isn't 10% at best. On boss fights where you continue to rotate through uses it will approach that uptime. When you are running quests with groups of mobs and space in between the mathematical uptime increases significantly as the time spent on cooldown while actively in combat decreases. Your assement is false, or as you are so fond of saying "a myth".

    Even with equivilent ROF ranged would not be 100% damage to melee wen not bursting, due to the 40-50 point str gap and power attack damage.
    Power attack is offset by PBS, and without the hit loss component as well. PBS+Combat Archery easily offsets PA for THF, both of these are unique feats for ranged combat and only unarmed has an equivalent epic feat to combat archery. Any STR score achievable by a non fighter/barb melee is nearly equally achievable in ranged combat, in addition a ranged barb could achieve the same str modifier as a melee one. Full Stack archer's focus adds more DPS than the entire THF line does for melee. The only difference in damage modifiers therefore is a 1.0 str modifier for ranged versus 1.5x for THF and 1.4x(80% offhand at .5 str modifier) for a non-tempest TWF.

    Very popular builds that lots of capped destiny level 25s use - regardless of how specific it is if you want to talk many shot up like its this almighty powerful thing still you have to compare it in relation to when that fear based argument started, to now. Its started back in the cap 14 days when manyshot was BY FAR the best burst ability. It no longer is.

    And as long as we are talking about specific builds, why is it that a well built archer has to have 6 levels of monk, and if they dont they even fall further behind?
    Epic destinies are equally available for all classes unlike PrE's or class enhancements. Most enhancements work for multiple builds, including things like adrenaline use for manyshot using ranged characters. To imply that there is nothing close to as beneficial for ranged in ED's as there are for melee is frankly disingenuous.

    Rogue assassins - ahead of fighters and barbs on singe targets.
    Helves angel build - which can do kensai-esque melee damage and use manyshot as often as regular archers.
    Monks - not necessarily struggling nowdays w/ high DC stuns and easy access to EiN.

    Paladins and rangers need some love, but archery numbers wise is comparable to a tempest with the same str score TWFing +5 longswords with no effects. This has been shown on these forums several times now.
    Rogues are amazing damage in the right situations but suffer heavily against specific enemy types and when they have aggro. Their damage is right for where they are due to both lower survivability of being lowest base health melee class and their damage being as situational as it is. Monks don't struggle for damage but they also aren't the same melee that you are claiming has a x9 crit multiplier. Monks are in a great place with GMoF but they really aren't matching the stuff you complain about in your posts.

    Whats archerys answer for x3 moar crits, +6 tactics, and cleaves that add x[w] damage at will?
    Crit rage barbs that have the x3 more crits as well. You can also twist in something like Otto's Whistler and Pin to mimic the +W attacks that also have utility as well for boosting the potency of your adrenaline uses outside of manyshot.

    Whats archerys answer for the entire fury destiny?
    Use it and twist it?

    Shiradi does not provide for archery what these 2 destinies provide for melee in terms of numbers. Melee has pulled even further ahead of ranged than it was previous to U14.
    Shiradi provides significantly more utility than FotW and is less weapon specific than LD is. You get a massive number of passive boosts and utility effects and as a result lose out on some of the damage. Building a FotW ranger is entirely possible and adrenaline manyshots are quite frankly devastating.

    Melee has higher attack rate + 40-50 more str + power attack damage.
    No, Barbs and Fighters have 40-50 more STR, "melee" in general doesn't. Barbs/fighters are typically melee, not all melee are barbs/fighters. Again the situation here isn't ranged vs. melee but complaints really about the potency of barb/fighter(and their expanded/enhanced crit profiles) versus ranged. Those same two classes are far ahead of most melee as well, including rogues that aren't able to SA, light path monks, paladins, clonk type FvS/Cleric, tempest rangers, melee druids, etc.

    Only needs to build for 2 stats, str and con, where now archery needs 4 - str, wis, dex, and con. Melee has to invest less feats to get much greater damage numbers. And now you guys are talking about needing to nerf many shot - the one thing that even puts ranged on par with melee, in order to give ranged a decent ROF? No sir - ranged will not be balanced with melee until people let go of this 4 year old fear based argument that was hatched back when reavers fate was endgame.
    I understand that you want ranged combat to be better, I do too. I just completely disagree with your assessment of how bad it is, or perhaps disagree with everything being compared against a FB THF Barb.

    tldr;
    ranged combat could use an attack rate boost, not going to deny that. ranged combat is not as far behind the average as you are trying to claim, but it is well behind mindless max dps barbs that sacrifice all utility to get there. Many shot is great as a burst tool, but in my opinion would need a tweak if ranged damage was fixed to match melee outside of manyshot periods.
    Last edited by orakio; 09-03-2012 at 05:44 PM.

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    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orakio View Post
    Those same two classes are far ahead of most melee as well, including rogues that aren't able to SA, light path monks, paladins, clonk type FvS/Cleric, tempest rangers, melee druids, etc.
    No, they aren't. What's your DPS while mindblasted by the mind flayer in Epic Elite "In the Belly of the Beast," and what's your DPS after he eats your brain? I'm just curious, because I have yet to see a melee do any signficant amount of damage on that particular target.

    I'll be the first to admit that melee has gotten some love for both burst and sustainable damage that puts them fairly high in the maximum theoretical DPS department. The only problem is that it's all just theoretical. In practice, they make little impact on the game and generally die so fast without outside aid that they have become a pure nuisance to carry through a quest. Unless, of course, they have stuns which allow them to single-target to good effect.

    Of course, a Shiradi archer can "Pin" to even better effect (lasts longer) and can fire through the Pinned target to hit something on the other side, all the while maneuvering around to avoid damage from multiple mobs all taking damage from his firings. He can start firing probably about 3 or 4 seconds worth of damage before a melee even comes within range. How much do you think that time adds to the archer's TRUE damage statistics, while the melee is sucking down big fat zeros? On the most-run difficulties of the game, 3 or 4 seconds is all a standard mob lasts.

    Which brings up rednames. Once again, the vast majority of the time in current content, the redname is not something to which you'll want to apply tank-n-heal tactics. You've got casters and divines all hitting it with DoTs, and the casters generally wind up with the aggro... so why not just let the caster have some aggro, and everyone hit it with ranged?

    This is one of those situations where math is going to be abused trying to prove anything, as the mathematical models simply do not reflect the complicated nature of the game. The real problem is with the imbalance between the content and the archer, not between teammates.

  16. #56
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orakio View Post
    Way to totally dismiss an argument because you don't agree with it. The numbers I posted weren't semantics. Manyshot is almost 15x as effective as trueshot discipline between the uptime and the potency increase generated. Trying to claim that trueshot discipline somehow invalidates the assertion that manyshot is unique in its potency is false as the numbers just don't add up and you were unable to provide a single other example. Sorry.
    Comparing apples to oranges. EQ scaled to the point where people had tens of thousands of HP and raid mobs had hundreds of millions of HP. Both of the disciplines upped the rate of fire for a period of time and made ranged basically trivialize one non raid encounter. Both are on scale for the games they are installed within. An apples to apples comparison trying to rules lawyer definition on a hp by hp basis is folly when comparing games where mobs have 100k hp and 8 people beat on them for 2 min to games where mobs have 600m hp and 70 people beat on them for 20 min.

    Quote Originally Posted by orakio View Post
    It means that if archery had the same attack rate as THF manyshot would cause its attack rate, over the duration and assuming constant combat (an assumption that helps your argument) to be overall 50% larger than THF.
    Now whose ignoring facts simply because they dont agree. Youre not counting quite a few things, haste boosts among them. Then theres power attack and a 40 point str differential at best to contend with. Then theres base damage, PA enhancements (each of which counts as 2 points of damage). Now how about the fact that haste increases ROF of melee by 15% but ranged by 11-12%. This is true of all alacrity bonus btw with ranged. It only increases the speed of the shot, not the wind up.

    Quote Originally Posted by orakio View Post
    This is due to 300% increase on a 16.667 uptime creating ~50% additional attacks over the course of the cooldown. That would be broken considering the implications of the sustained massive burst it generates and DDO's tendency to have large downtime between combats increasing the relative uptime of manyshot.
    Again, straight math with no concern of the actual situational use. So when archers many shot cools off and theres no mob in the room they are just using it anyhow to stay in accordance of absolutely needing to use it 10% of the time? No - they are waiting for juicy burst opportunities, then using it.

    Burst DPS doesnt break the game. It tactically strengthens the game. People need to decide where and when to use the ability in order to maximise its impact. This is why ill never understand nerf supporters who keep talking about increasing cooldowns. The monk who uses EiN when 2 mobs are in the room isnt OP. The wizard who used the old wail with 2 mobs in the room isnt OP, and the ranger who many shots with 2 mobs in the room isnt OP. The cooldown doesnt just automagically time out when the person with said ability is in need of it and surrounded by mobs.

    Quote Originally Posted by orakio View Post
    Per Meriam Websters dictionary:
    Myth. Noun:

    1. A traditional story, esp. one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically...
    2. Such stories collectively

    It isn't a myth, it is a statement of opinion. Your repetitive use of the word myth doesn't make it one, nor is your statement of arguments against manyshot being "based on fear that archery might be able to compete." true either, that is just your opinion on the matter. I am totally fine with archery competing and in no way afraid of it doing so. I however don't think that ranged needs to retain a +3 arrow many shot with 16.667% uptime if it's attack rate was matched to that of THF.
    Rules lawyering definitions wont help you here. You know exactly what I mean when I use the word, and so does anyone who reads this regardless of whether or not they agree with me. The argument that many shot is what is keeping ranged from becomming more powerful had some FACT and TRUTH (not opinion) behind it when people first started asing for ranged to be made viable - back when endgame was reavers fate. This is an old arguement however and in order to test its validity we have to look at how much melee improved compared to ranged since then. Its not even a comparison. The str deficit between the two was like 8 points back then, maximum. Nowdays its like 40.

    On two different places on these boards people ran the numbers in similar threads and included all bursts on both sides - and ranged with is the equivilent of +5 longswords with no effects on them being TWFed by a tempest in one and +5 short swords in the other. When we start increasing base damage and crit multipliers to account for post U14 we see melee pull alot further ahead.

    Quote Originally Posted by orakio View Post
    Many shot has a mathematical minimum 16.667% uptime, that isn't 10% at best. On boss fights where you continue to rotate through uses it will approach that uptime. When you are running quests with groups of mobs and space in between the mathematical uptime increases significantly as the time spent on cooldown while actively in combat decreases. Your assement is false, or as you are so fond of saying "a myth".
    I can see your point here however...using this logic, melee actually gains a significant boost in comparison as they face the same spaces between encounters. They are boosted between shrines a far higher percentage of time than ranged is with manyshot then. By attempting to disagree with me, you are highlighting conditions that increase the advantage of melee bypassing ranged by even a further degree than I was already outlining.

    Quote Originally Posted by orakio View Post
    Power attack is offset by PBS, and without the hit loss component as well. PBS+Combat Archery easily offsets PA for THF, both of these are unique feats for ranged combat and only unarmed has an equivalent epic feat to combat archery.
    Um no. How are you getting 22 points per hit off PBS? (this is before counting crits which also by far doesnt favor ranged)

    Quote Originally Posted by orakio View Post
    Any STR score achievable by a non fighter/barb melee is nearly equally achievable in ranged combat, in addition a ranged barb could achieve the same str modifier as a melee one. Full Stack archer's focus adds more DPS than the entire THF line does for melee. The only difference in damage modifiers therefore is a 1.0 str modifier for ranged versus 1.5x for THF and 1.4x(80% offhand at .5 str modifier) for a non-tempest TWF.
    So youd rather compare archers to flavor build melee than compare them to what this game is actually balanced to? I dont agree. The comparison needs to be made to what this game is balanced to.

    Ive been arguing for years now that paladins and rangers need some love as well. Rogues and monks with their comparable str are far out DPSing ranged, and outkilling them with instakills as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by orakio View Post
    Epic destinies are equally available for all classes unlike PrE's or class enhancements. Most enhancements work for multiple builds, including things like adrenaline use for manyshot using ranged characters. To imply that there is nothing close to as beneficial for ranged in ED's as there are for melee is frankly disingenuous.
    How many ranged builds do you know of that were built to never put down ranged weapons are using full on fury destiny?

    Quote Originally Posted by orakio View Post
    Rogues are amazing damage in the right situations but suffer heavily against specific enemy types and when they have aggro. Their damage is right for where they are due to both lower survivability of being lowest base health melee class and their damage being as situational as it is. Monks don't struggle for damage but they also aren't the same melee that you are claiming has a x9 crit multiplier. Monks are in a great place with GMoF but they really aren't matching the stuff you complain about in your posts.
    Monks are underestimated by those who play other melee. The higher the fort gets on a boss the closer they pull to pure melee. As for trash they have more stuns than any other class and can up their DPS to 1.5x its total regularly.

    Rogues are best on all raid bosses. If someone has aggro on a boss playing a rogue they are doing it wrong. As for the HP total comparison, HP increases are linear. Rogues with 600 or even 700 HP are not uncommon. This is another argument that was more valid years ago which is losing its validity nowdays.

    Quote Originally Posted by orakio View Post
    Crit rage barbs that have the x3 more crits as well. You can also twist in something like Otto's Whistler and Pin to mimic the +W attacks that also have utility as well for boosting the potency of your adrenaline uses outside of manyshot.
    Crit rage is threat enhancing, not multiplier enhancing. Crit rage is gimped compared to what is accomplishable on a build nowdays. Turbine grandfathered it in knowing FB was better anyhow

    Quote Originally Posted by orakio View Post
    Shiradi provides significantly more utility than FotW and is less weapon specific than LD is. You get a massive number of passive boosts and utility effects and as a result lose out on some of the damage. Building a FotW ranger is entirely possible and adrenaline manyshots are quite frankly devastating.
    Quote Originally Posted by orakio View Post
    No, Barbs and Fighters have 40-50 more STR, "melee" in general doesn't. Barbs/fighters are typically melee, not all melee are barbs/fighters. Again the situation here isn't ranged vs. melee but complaints really about the potency of barb/fighter(and their expanded/enhanced crit profiles) versus ranged. Those same two classes are far ahead of most melee as well, including rogues that aren't able to SA, light path monks, paladins, clonk type FvS/Cleric, tempest rangers, melee druids, etc.
    Druid is a caster, just like a melee fvs is still a caster. Its DPS isnt just melee. Comparing classes with instakills firewall and blade barrier to pure melee isnt going to really tell us anything we didnt already know, which is that melee are behind those classes in terms of power.

    The comparison I am making is to pure melee, not hybrids. As I said before paladins and rangers need some love. Rogues and monks are already on top or near top even with less str. Ranged is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by orakio View Post
    I understand that you want ranged combat to be better, I do too. I just completely disagree with your assessment of how bad it is, or perhaps disagree with everything being compared against a FB THF Barb.

    tldr;
    ranged combat could use an attack rate boost, not going to deny that. ranged combat is not as far behind the average as you are trying to claim, but it is well behind mindless max dps barbs that sacrifice all utility to get there. Many shot is great as a burst tool, but in my opinion would need a tweak if ranged damage was fixed to match melee outside of manyshot periods.
    Ranged combat is much further behind melee than those touting the uberness of manyshot wish the rest of us to believe. Manyshot needing a nerf to boost ROF of ranged was a valid argument when reavers fate was endgame but is invalid as an argument nowdays. People get caught up in holding onto their methods even after the game has changed so much since the time when that stance was first agreed with. Saying many shot would need to be nerfed is not true as it was 4 years ago, as it is no longer so far ahead of all other bursts like it was.

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    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    An apples to apples comparison trying to rules lawyer definition on a hp by hp basis is folly when comparing games where mobs have 100k hp and 8 people beat on them for 2 min to games where mobs have 600m hp and 70 people beat on them for 20 min.
    You realize that this set of circumstances should invert the scaling between trueshot and manyshot, right? Trueshot should have been 15x the damage boost, not the other way around...

    You are making very longwinded comments that DO NOT reflect the game as I see it, at all. My initial inclination is to believe that you simply don't know what you are talking about, especially from previous arguments you've had concerning computer operating systems and behavior.

    I fail to understand how you can acknowledge that casters are out-of-balance with melee, but then somehow have noticed that melee are so much more effective than ranged. How do the melee in your groups even contribute, if you have casters doing their duty of debuff, instakill, hold, and mass AoE? Ranged works great in conjunction, while melee is pure nuisance. Maybe you should make a FRAPS of how the melee in your party are dominating, while casters and sustainable ranged are behaving competently.

  18. #58
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    You realize that this set of circumstances should invert the scaling between trueshot and manyshot, right? Trueshot should have been 15x the damage boost, not the other way around...
    No - the end product of trueshot (not what it starts at which is the definition he is using) is the mechanic they based manyshot off of for their video game adaptation. The numbers are mere semantics - as both are geared to do the same thing, trivialize one room encounters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    You are making very longwinded comments that DO NOT reflect the game as I see it, at all. My initial inclination is to believe that you simply don't know what you are talking about, especially from previous arguments you've had concerning computer operating systems and behavior.
    Ad hominem is the sauce that gets poured over the argument after it gets drained like a siv. We are at the same stage in this discussion we were in the last discussion you are talking about - where you bring nothing to the table other than declarations of those you disagree with not knowing what they are talking about when they owned you in the discussion. Not only is this against the forum rules, but bringing previous disagreements into current threads is also against the forum rules. I do recall asking you to refrain from this in previous threads as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    I fail to understand how you can acknowledge that casters are out-of-balance with melee, but then somehow have noticed that melee are so much more effective than ranged. How do the melee in your groups even contribute, if you have casters doing their duty of debuff, instakill, hold, and mass AoE? Ranged works great in conjunction, while melee is pure nuisance. Maybe you should make a FRAPS of how the melee in your party are dominating, while casters and sustainable ranged are behaving competently.
    This discussion is not about casters. We are talking about melee weapon builds -vs- ranged weapon builds. However, since you bring up casters...

    The reason why artificers are powerful is not because their pew pew compares to other pew pew. Its because they get to add rune arm and blade barrier damage to their ranged DPS - something most archers have no answer for. Similar can be said for melee druids and fvs. It isnt their melee or self healing that pushes them over the edge, Its the fact that they add bladebarrier/firewall DPS and DOT DPS to their melee DPS.

    What we are talking about here is melee who never puts the weapon down compared to archer that never puts the bow down. Its absurd that 6 monk levels are needed just to up the ROF - now 4 stats need to be built for instead of melees 2. Theres a 40 str disparity, PA disparity, burst time disparity, all in favor of melee. Turbine is afraid of making archery competitive, and the fact that you share that fear doesnt point to me not knowing what I am talking about - as you make that comment repeatedly, in place of, rather than in conjunction with, anything that supports your fear of powerful ranged toons in a well rehearsed fashion.
    Last edited by Chai; 09-04-2012 at 09:37 AM.

  19. #59
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    ...you make that comment repeatedly, in place of, rather than in conjunction with, anything that supports your fear of powerful ranged toons in a well rehearsed fashion.
    Yes, Chai, because it's as simple as that. It's hard to expound on the simplest of concepts, because anything you add on top is just going to make it seem more complex than it really is.

    You CAN'T HAVE ranged equivalent to melee in DPS terms, it simply isn't allowable. It's not allowed in Darkfall, it's not allowed in Rift, it's not allowed in Warhammer Online, and it's not allowed in real life (bringing a bow to a knife fight would be considered a joke).

    So, the question is, what's the percentage of DPS that a ranged user should get? Should they be at 80% of melee, 60% of melee?

    Right now, with proper use of manyshot, the average ranged user is probably at about 140% damage of the average melee user, all factors considered. If you don't see that as being true about the game, then I do think you don't know what you are talking about. Melee are still getting some kills, however, as the damage they do typically comes at the tail end. They are getting far to few to mitigate the helplessness they feel and no one really uses kill counts much as a basis for true game balance analysis anyway.
    Last edited by Raithe; 09-04-2012 at 11:05 AM.

  20. #60
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Yes, Chai, because it's as simple as that. It's hard to expound on the simplest of concepts, because anything you add on top is just going to make it seem more complex than it really is.

    You CAN'T HAVE ranged equivalent to melee in DPS terms, it simply isn't allowable. It's not allowed in Darkfall, it's not allowed in Rift, it's not allowed in Warhammer Online, and it's not allowed in real life (bringing a bow to a knife fight would be considered a joke).
    This is false. Many games do have ranged damage equivilent to melee, and without the myth that ranged is somehow "safer" - because of two reasons.

    1. casters are the most dangerous mobs, and they dont have to close into melee range in order to kill you.
    2. Buffing ranged weapons is done on both sides, so ranged mobs are more potent as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    So, the question is, what's the percentage of DPS that a ranged user should get? Should they be at 80% of melee, 60% of melee?

    Right now, with proper use of manyshot, the average ranged user is probably at about 140% damage of the average melee user, all factors considered. If you don't see that as being true about the game, then I do think you don't know what you are talking about. Melee are still getting some kills, however, as the damage they do typically comes at the tail end. They are getting far to few to mitigate the helplessness they feel and no one really uses kill counts much as a basis for true game balance analysis anyway.
    Melee are vastly ahead of ranged. Being able to do 25% damage boost in accordance with tier 4 haste boost stackable with regular haste puts melee far ahead of ranged. Addition of more crit multipliers and larger base damage, plus a ~40 str deficit ranged has no answer for. If you think many shot for 20 seconds out of every 2 min is keeping up with this, youre dreaming. It certainly did when str totals were in the 40s. Nowdays they are in the 80s and crit multipliers are insane maxing out at x9 - and what did archery gain during that time? Having to invest in another stat (wisdom) in order to be able to shoot another arrow on some shots. Manyshot + 10k stars does not keep up with even flavor build melee. Two people have now run the numbers on these very forums showing the very best ranged builds being the equivilent of a 38 str tempest TWFing +5 longswords with no effects, unboosted.

    Turbine has been afraid of two things since this games inception.
    1. Allowing competitive ranged weapon builds.
    2. People making unhittable AC toons.

    Youre just perpetuating that same fear by saying that ranged cant be allowed to compete. Your argument is invalid, as there are many games that have succeeded and allowed ranged to compete. Denial of this does not equal factual information, and neither does repeated declaration of those who disagree with your fear supposedly not knowing what they are talking about.

    OMG the status quo might be upset if ranged was suddenly able to compete in terms of DPS. We simply cannot allow this you say? then in the VERY NEXT PARAGRAPH try to declare that ranged is already ahead by 40%? According to you, the current iteration of the game is already something that cannot be allowed in the future. Youre flip flopping on this issue, and I just pulled your card on it. Im pretty sure you know which of those is true - that ranged is no where near melee DPS.
    Last edited by Chai; 09-04-2012 at 12:08 PM.

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