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  1. #1
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    Default Druid snare is PW: Kill in disguise

    I've been trying to solo the Thorn and Paw quest on Epic hard on my evasion paladin. She has a fairly decent STR (38) and enough saves (45+), and I've already soloed all Motu content on Epic hard without any major problem... until this quest.

    The main problem is the "snare" effect the druids cast. This "web-like" ability saves on STR (+14 on my char) and lasts for 35+ secs. I know 38 STR isn't some ultra-mega-hugely-***yourenotbarbarian number, but I think it should be enough to be able to save it a few times. Well, it only saves on 20s.

    I'm not really sure if FoM works with this ability as it seems to be a non-magical effect.

    So... Is this WAI? I mean. Is DC 35 (at least, but I guess it's on the mid 40s) on a stat-based save that makes you helpless for more than 30 secs what you call something balanced on "hard" content?

    If you really want that only barbarians or ultraclickied non-barbarian melee save a few times on this ability, it's okay, but at least reduce the CC time to 8 secs max, as hold monster and so.

  2. #2
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    Oh the dc is actually a lot higher than that. Its pretty close to the bear traps in difficulty, my barbarian(62 str) has to roll a 20 to save from that spell as well. thats a +26 from str so the dc is at least 46.

  3. #3
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    Wow. At least DC 46 seems far too much. I think it could be nice that DC for epic elite quests, as it's supposed that you "can't" solo them and that'd be balanced for a party. Maybe they changed epic elite DC with epic hard DC, not the first time something like that happened (remember the CR 40+ reavers on epic normal Servants).

    Anyway, hope some dev says something about.

  4. #4
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    mmm I've done this chain on EE and EH several times, usually in groups, but solo once on my low str sorc.. And have no idea what your talking about?

    Whats the exact name of the effect, and exactly what druid casts it?


    So... Is this WAI?
    IMO whats not WAI is the joke that is Epic Hard. It does nothing to prepare you for elite, and is so easy it causes it become the defact solo difficulty. The default solo difficulty is and has ALWAYS been intended to be normal. Hard IS designed to be well hard - for groups, it states it explicitly on the mouse over. The fact you could solo all of them besides this one without much trouble is whats not WAI imo.

    Though yea balancing str saves is difficult due to the big gap now in low str melee classes like paladinsa nd high str ones like fighters and barbarian.
    Barbs for example can reach triple digits at the extreme levels for short periods, and are not too hard to maintain a 80 str (+35). If your sitting at +14, and expect to make some saves, then the bbn saves automatically, removing all challenge.

    Though the reverse is true too:
    Paladins can get will/reflex saves in the 60+, which is what epic elites DCs have to be balanced against. This results in barbarians, evne with the best possible gear, failing saves on a 19...
    This is quite evident on the final quest - druids curse.. Which is essentially impossible for a average bbn to solo on Epic Hard due to earthquake, yet trivial for a paladin. As the spell results in you being permanently CC'd.

    And likely entirely impossible on EE, while a paladin might stand some chance, tho would have extreme difficult there too, mainly due to the earlier encounters tho.

    I don't really mind either scenario happening on either hard or elite, as they encourage teamwork.

    Though the druids earthquake example can make the endfight quite tough even on normal for low reflex solo players.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    mmm I've done this chain on EE and EH several times, usually in groups, but solo once on my low str sorc.. And have no idea what your talking about?

    Whats the exact name of the effect, and exactly what druid casts it?



    IMO whats not WAI is the joke that is Epic Hard. It does nothing to prepare you for elite, and is so easy it causes it become the defact solo difficulty. The default solo difficulty is and has ALWAYS been intended to be normal. Hard IS designed to be well hard - for groups, it states it explicitly on the mouse over. The fact you could solo all of them besides this one without much trouble is whats not WAI imo.

    Though yea balancing str saves is difficult due to the big gap now in low str melee classes like paladinsa nd high str ones like fighters and barbarian.
    Barbs for example can reach triple digits at the extreme levels for short periods, and are not too hard to maintain a 80 str (+35). If your sitting at +14, and expect to make some saves, then the bbn saves automatically, removing all challenge.

    Though the reverse is true too:
    Paladins can get will/reflex saves in the 60+, which is what epic elites DCs have to be balanced against. This results in barbarians, evne with the best possible gear, failing saves on a 19...
    This is quite evident on the final quest - druids curse.. Which is essentially impossible for a average bbn to solo on Epic Hard due to earthquake, yet trivial for a paladin. As the spell results in you being permanently CC'd.

    And likely entirely impossible on EE, while a paladin might stand some chance, tho would have extreme difficult there too, mainly due to the earlier encounters tho.

    I don't really mind either scenario happening on either hard or elite, as they encourage teamwork.

    Though the druids earthquake example can make the endfight quite tough even on normal for low reflex solo players.
    The effect is Snare (http://ddowiki.com/page/Snare). It's pretty much a death sentence unless you are lucky.
    My low Str. sorc (~20 or so) needed a 20 to escape this effect - which is technically wrong as it's not a saving
    throw. If you see a little white dot on the ground, walk over it.

    As for EH, I'd agree on a difficulty increase as long as the drop rates for things are increased. I can't solo EE
    (where drop rates are supposedly higher) with any degree of reliability or efficiency hence I have to stick on EH
    and constantly get skunked.

  6. #6
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    I've been trapped by web once since I've been capped and it was a bit annoying, really made me wish I had my frozen tunic on.

    Not sure about this snare by maybe fireshield (hot or cold) would auto break it? Bracers of the Glacier, Frozen Tunic or Cloak of Flames might help as the guard will certainly go off before you die.
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  7. #7
    2015 DDO Players Council Ironforge_Clan's Avatar
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    Fireshield won't help...at least it didn't on my characters and I can confirm that you need to roll a 20 to save. Based upon what others have stated it doesn't matter what your strength is you need that 20 to save.

    Also, the LD ability that is supposed to wipe out all CC (can't recall name atm) doesn't work to free oneself from the snare either. Not sure if this is WAI or if the devs are not calling snare a type of CC. Either way it was a huge let down.
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  8. #8
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    IMO whats not WAI is the joke that is Epic Hard. It does nothing to prepare you for elite, and is so easy it causes it become the defact solo difficulty. The default solo difficulty is and has ALWAYS been intended to be normal. Hard IS designed to be well hard - for groups, it states it explicitly on the mouse over. The fact you could solo all of them besides this one without much trouble is whats not WAI imo.
    Well, that's your pov. I've always seen normal difficulty as "learning the quest alone", hard as "learning the quest on group" or "doing alone when known" and elite "doing on party when known and well-equiped". I may be wrong, you may be right, who knows, but that's how I feel the game is right now.

    Though yea balancing str saves is difficult due to the big gap now in low str melee classes like paladinsa nd high str ones like fighters and barbarian.
    Barbs for example can reach triple digits at the extreme levels for short periods, and are not too hard to maintain a 80 str (+35). If your sitting at +14, and expect to make some saves, then the bbn saves automatically, removing all challenge.
    I think it's fine that with +14 STR I can't save. And I think it's fine too that a 80 STR barbarian saves 95% time, as that's their main focus. What I really wanted to say is that if I can't save with that bonus in epic hard because that spell is so powerful for me to save, that spell should work as any other CC, and not letting you helpless for half a minute. I expect this kind of effects in epic elite.

  9. #9
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    Dungeon scaling should affect the duration of the Snare. In your favor, if you are soloing. And the strength check should be something realistic. I say, bug-report it.

  10. #10
    Community Member Miow's Avatar
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    Hmm i never noticed is my air savant immune to that knockdown effect?

  11. #11
    Community Member Diyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naerethil View Post
    Well, that's your pov. I've always seen normal difficulty as "learning the quest alone", hard as "learning the quest on group" or "doing alone when known" and elite "doing on party when known and well-equiped". I may be wrong, you may be right, who knows, but that's how I feel the game is right now.
    Well I can say for myself, that when I've gone to learn the quest on my own, I've been going in on hard recently with few issues.


    Snare sucks when you get caught by it.

    Tip on the earthquakes on higher difficulty: grab an air ele, or use gust of wind or cyclonic blast. It gets eliminated.
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  12. #12
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    I've done this chain on EE and EH several times, usually in groups, but solo once on my low str sorc.
    It might be with arcanes, depending on how they are being played and the mob AI, that the druids are being killed before they activate or path over to the snare spell.

    Melee characters tend to run into encounters and the AI pathing might lead mobs to use crowd control spells in order to avoid melee damage. OTOH, arcanes -- and sorcerers in particular -- tend to use various crowd controls of their own (along with instant kill effects). The mob AI when attacked at range or by spells might be to react with ranged attacks and/or spells rather than crowd control.

    This could explain why a sorcerer doesn't see the snare being used.

    In groups it could be that the druids are being killed fast enough that the AI doesn't path to the snare spell or that the spell ends when the casting druid dies -- in either case it means that players wouldn't notice the big effect that OP is seeing.

  13. #13
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    One other thing. I haven't run the quest so I don't know how practical it is, but taking off from my previous observation about how melees generally approach a quest -- can you body pull or bluff pull the mobs apart and kill them one at a time? Can you go into a defensive stance when you expect to encounter snare and shield block until it goes away? Can you summon something so that it gets aggression and then eliminate druids with hit and run tactics?

    Maybe a change in how you approach the encounters can help you get through them.

  14. #14
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    It is an extremely annoying effect and the biggest annoyance about it is that it doesn't have a reflex save on
    entry like web does. I.e. it's all strength checks. Fom does protect from it though.

  15. #15
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    I'd personally like to see strength checks as saves removed from the game. I know it deviates from pnp rules, but just change it to one of the three "real" saves for any given effect. As mentioned by Shade, there is far too great a variance in strength for any strength check to be balanced between builds. A similar argument was made by Turbine regarding AC and a change was made so that with some effort, anyone can have an AC with some meaning by endgame. If strength checks were simply changed to fortitude saves or reflex in some cases (or possibly just whatever is the higher of the two) it could solve some problems that arise with up to a 60 point deviation in realistic end game strength scores.
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  16. #16
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    I'd personally like to see strength checks as saves removed from the game. I know it deviates from pnp rules, but just change it to one of the three "real" saves for any given effect. As mentioned by Shade, there is far too great a variance in strength for any strength check to be balanced between builds. A similar argument was made by Turbine regarding AC and a change was made so that with some effort, anyone can have an AC with some meaning by endgame. If strength checks were simply changed to fortitude saves or reflex in some cases (or possibly just whatever is the higher of the two) it could solve some problems that arise with up to a 60 point deviation in realistic end game strength scores.
    um well as I pointed out for regulr saves too. The variance also has exceeded the 20 point game breaking margin in epic levels too.

    Especially for paladin/pal splashs. Though even monks and fvs tend to reach reflex/will figures near 20 points ahead of the low reflex/will classes, even when both put a fair and equal focus into them. (and vice versa for bbn/ftr on fort saves, although con being a useful stat to ALL classes closes that gap well enough imo)

    So no, breakin the pnp rules on this wont help achieve balance. It just further unbalances it towards paladins/fvs/mnks. And while paladins could use som love, monks and fvs certainly dont need any.

    Adopting the new ac system , for saves.. Could be a solution. Though not one I like.

    I think the fact there is a known workaround that works for EVERY class means its fine as is. The few high str classes havinf the advantage of being able to not slot an item, or not rely on a buff, isnt that big of an advantage.

    (EG: Use FoM scrolls/boots to be immune.. I have those on my sorc tho i actaully did not wear them while i solod EH. I guess the fact I sorta 1 shot everything renders the druids abilies rather moot regardless)

  17. #17
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    Just got stuck in Snare (might have been two Snares, unclear if I survived the first one and was then immediately re-Snared) for a good 30-40 seconds on EN until dead. Monk, 36 Str, 30ish Saves. Quite annoying.

  18. #18
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post

    IMO whats not WAI is the joke that is Epic Hard. It does nothing to prepare you for elite, and is so easy it causes it become the defact solo difficulty. The default solo difficulty is and has ALWAYS been intended to be normal. Hard IS designed to be well hard - for groups, it states it explicitly on the mouse over. The fact you could solo all of them besides this one without much trouble is whats not WAI imo.

    Though yea balancing str saves is difficult due to the big gap now in low str melee classes like paladinsa nd high str ones like fighters and barbarian.
    Barbs for example can reach triple digits at the extreme levels for short periods, and are not too hard to maintain a 80 str (+35). If your sitting at +14, and expect to make some saves, then the bbn saves automatically, removing all challenge.

    Though the reverse is true too:
    Paladins can get will/reflex saves in the 60+, which is what epic elites DCs have to be balanced against. This results in barbarians, evne with the best possible gear, failing saves on a 19...
    This is quite evident on the final quest - druids curse.. Which is essentially impossible for a average bbn to solo on Epic Hard due to earthquake, yet trivial for a paladin. As the spell results in you being permanently CC'd.

    And likely entirely impossible on EE, while a paladin might stand some chance, tho would have extreme difficult there too, mainly due to the earlier encounters tho.

    I don't really mind either scenario happening on either hard or elite, as they encourage teamwork.

    Though the druids earthquake example can make the endfight quite tough even on normal for low reflex solo players.
    I'm largely inclined to agree with Axer on this. Epic Hard is way too easy, and players shouldn't be heading into them expecting to crush the quest with no problem. The fact that the OP was able to get through all of the other content relatively easily should not be a reason to weaken the one quest that has given you problems.


    As for the spell itself...the DC needs to be lower, such that barbarians are making the save most of the time, at the very least. That doesn't help moderate-Str paladins, or low-Str casters, but barbs could stand to have that bone thrown their way. There's simply no way to balance saves across all character types in DDO at this point, with some characters maxing their saves, with heavy investment, in the low 30s, while others are hitting the low 50s without much effort--they're not on the same die anymore. That's fine, if there are instances that benefit and penalize both groups, which there are.


    Snare should have a maximum duration of 30 seconds, should offer a new save every 6 seconds, and it needs to have a slightly more obvious graphic OR it needs to have a maximum duration of 12 seconds with a save at 6 seconds, unless Freedom of Movement protects against it. If you still can't deal with it, that's your fault.
    Quote Originally Posted by Naerethil View Post
    Well, that's your pov. I've always seen normal difficulty as "learning the quest alone", hard as "learning the quest on group" or "doing alone when known" and elite "doing on party when known and well-equiped". I may be wrong, you may be right, who knows, but that's how I feel the game is right now.
    And there's your problem: you forgot that we have a Casual difficulty. What it should be, using your labels:
    Casual - Learn quest solo
    Normal - Learn quest as a group/solo quest with some knowledge/experience/gear
    Hard - Run quest in a group that can work together a little and has some gear/solo when knowledgeable, experience and well-geared
    Elite - Run quest in a group that works well together and has some gear, or very skilled players/solo when exceptionally skilled, experience and geared

    Right now, Hard is a joke, and the leap between than an Elite is much to big. There's no reason at all to run Epic Casual, and the only point in Epic Normal is for XP farming speed-runs after you've gotten your first time bonuses. I feel like this is all an extension of the Bravery Bonus implementation and the feeling of entitlement everyone has--there is an XP bonus for running quests on a higher difficulty, and everyone should be able to get that XP, whereas that really should not be the case.
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  19. #19
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    Again, I'm not saying that I should save all with base saves instead of ability bonus. I'm not saying the content, as it is right now, is the best in terms of difficulty, neither.

    What I'm saying is that this spell is no way balanced as the standard CC spells on Epic Hard as they are right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    As for the spell itself...the DC needs to be lower, such that barbarians are making the save most of the time, at the very least. That doesn't help moderate-Str paladins, or low-Str casters, but barbs could stand to have that bone thrown their way.
    I agree with this. I mean, it's fine that ultrahigh STR characters are almost inmune to this spell, as ultrahigh WILL save characters are almost inmune to hold monster.

    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Snare should have a maximum duration of 30 seconds, should offer a new save every 6 seconds, and it needs to have a slightly more obvious graphic OR it needs to have a maximum duration of 12 seconds with a save at 6 seconds, unless Freedom of Movement protects against it. If you still can't deal with it, that's your fault.
    I dont agree with this. Snare is a lower level spell compared to Hold Monster. Both make the character helpless and, right now, the first holds you for 35+ secs, and the later only 8 (asuming always failing the save). That's no way balanced. The fact that FoM removes that spell effect (and hold monsters) doesn't make this spell balanced. It just makes more need of blanket inmunities and that really isn't a challenge neither. 8 secs of helpless with 4-5 mobs + miniboss is enough to make you use some panic button cooldowns.

    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    And there's your problem: you forgot that we have a Casual difficulty. What it should be, using your labels:
    Casual - Learn quest solo
    Normal - Learn quest as a group/solo quest with some knowledge/experience/gear
    Hard - Run quest in a group that can work together a little and has some gear/solo when knowledgeable, experience and well-geared
    Elite - Run quest in a group that works well together and has some gear, or very skilled players/solo when exceptionally skilled, experience and geared
    I agree with this... almost. First, what I told about difficulties is not what I want them to be; I meant that as now, the game works this way, at least that's the feeling I have. You're right, and Shade too, that difficulty settings are messed up. The only thing I don't agree of your table of difficulties is that you're letting solo players to do elite. Elite should never be able to be solo-friendly. And the term "skilled players" is something I don't really like; someone who has played this game for a while and have done the quest a few times is already "skilled". I prefer to call it "resourceful characters". I've been playing with "very skilled" players that are awesome but can't do anything with his character if not in party, so it's more about the character build than the player (of course, every bit adds).

    Finally, sorry if I haven't explained my point so clear. English is not my natural language.
    Last edited by Naerethil; 08-30-2012 at 08:30 AM.

  20. #20
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    I think the save system, especially in 20+ content is working fine. There is a variance, but it's nothing that a bit of gear and destiny twists won't help to increase. I like the idea of strength checks as a way to avoid effects as it theoretically should be a weakness for casters, but in reality it just turns into a weakness for all non barb, non fighters.

    I think any toon can get a 40+ save without permanently gimping their toon if it's important enough for the content they're running. The monk commendation bracers combined with a +6 save tier 1 twist and other gear considerations can be swapped in if needed. Yes it lowers dps, but if wisp stuns are keeping you locked down, this is a reasonable tradeoff.

    I guess my point is that d20 still works for saves, but it just can't work for ability checks, specifically on strength which has far too wide a gap between high and medium values.
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