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  1. #21
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2x4 View Post
    Add a Tab to the guild Leaders options tabs. Call it Public.

    When this Tab is selected it opens up the guild ship to the public at large and anyone can enter it. When the guild ship is made public all guild decay ceases, the ammenity timers cease and all guild decay from departing guild members is set to zero.

    The guild ships who are public will be displayed at every ship portal which includes guild name and ship level.

    While the ship is public guild renown is still accumulated. however, once enough guild renown is earned to obtain the next level then this stops. Guilds cannot advance to the next level while in the Public mode. Guilds would have to switch off public to pass into the next level.

    8
    How does this solve anything? How is this different from "get rid of guild decay and timers completely"? What keeps a guild from moving from public to private and right back to public again?
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  2. #22
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    The question really boils down to what is the Average Game Time Turbine actually expects out of each player...

    And if we go by the 30 day method {when they count as inactive} - What is that average game time...

    So for example a 138 Account Guild Size

    Averaging out the Hours for a 30 day period as 1 hour per day per player (30 hours):

    Each Account:

    at Level 71 would need to bring in 672 per hour

    at Level 85 it goes up to 1580 per hour

    at Level 100 it goes up to 3218 per hour
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Averaging out the Hours for a 30 day period as 4 hour per day per player (120 hours):

    Each Account:

    at Level 71 would need to bring in 168 per hour

    at Level 85 it goes up to 395 per hour

    at Level 100 it goes up to 805 per hour
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Two things become apparent when you break the current renown down by hours.

    The more obvious is that the more hours you play in a 30 day period the less renown per hour you need to pull in.

    However, maybe not so obvious is that it appears that Turbine is using an average hours per 30 days as something very close to 120 hours average.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This is why I believe guilds made up of players where the average play time for all active members is less than 120 hours in a 30 day period begin to struggle against the decay as they get higher in level.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystafyi View Post
    this would indeed fix one of the problems with renown, but then folks would complain that they are punished for playing alot.... catch-22.
    How would anyone be punished for playing alot? By having to endure the humilaition of others eventually being able to get the same buffs they have? If that is punishment, then every other part of DDO is punishing them already!

  4. #24
    Community Member Falco_Easts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2x4 View Post
    Add a Tab to the guild Leaders options tabs. Call it Public.

    When this Tab is selected it opens up the guild ship to the public at large and anyone can enter it. When the guild ship is made public all guild decay ceases, the ammenity timers cease and all guild decay from departing guild members is set to zero.

    The guild ships who are public will be displayed at every ship portal which includes guild name and ship level.

    While the ship is public guild renown is still accumulated. however, once enough guild renown is earned to obtain the next level then this stops. Guilds cannot advance to the next level while in the Public mode. Guilds would have to switch off public to pass into the next level.

    8
    I don't mind this idea. As good as some others I have heard.

    Quote Originally Posted by WargamerIV View Post
    This defeats the purpose of guilds which is to encourage people to play the game a lot (usually) with a few friends
    While I agree this is what guild should and were like, this is no longer the case.


    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    Over complicated and I believe it would be difficult to impliment.

    Instead..
    House P already has a buffer in place that has not been updated in over 3 years.
    Update the House P favor tiers to include buffs equivient to ship buffs for a set price.
    Once you have the house P appropriate favor you can then buy your buffs as desired.
    I like this idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tshober View Post
    The problem is inherent in the system. The system divides the DDO playerbase into two type of players, those who earn more than they cost in decay and those who earn less than they cost in decay. It makes the former desirable and the latter undesirable through its rewards system. It is an enforced caste system that encourages and rewards anti-social behavior. The values used to divide the DDO playerbase are arbitrary numbers that are embedded in the renown decay formula.
    The division isn't in the play time, the division is between guildmates and ******s. People are choosing guild level over guild friendship. That decision is not Turbines fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tshober View Post
    How would anyone be punished for playing alot? By having to endure the humilaition of others eventually being able to get the same buffs they have? If that is punishment, then every other part of DDO is punishing them already!
    They would be punished by having a game scaled around everyone running back to their ship every hour and running around with 30 point resists all the time.
    A friend will bail you out of jail.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falco_Easts View Post
    People are choosing guild level over guild friendship. That decision is not Turbines fault.
    Yes, people are making the decision you state. But Turbine is encouraging and rewarding that decsion, and they should not be. I want Turbine to stop rewarding that anti-social behavior and stop punishing those who do choose guild friendship. It's that simple. If you want guilds to be about friendship, then why on Earth would you reward those who make it about guild level instead of friendship, and punish those who don't? The rewards system should encourage a friendly guild enviroment, or at least not discourage it. The system we have now encourages and rewards anti-social behavior and punishes the opposite.
    Last edited by Tshober; 08-30-2012 at 10:10 AM.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falco_Easts View Post
    They would be punished by having a game scaled around everyone running back to their ship every hour and running around with 30 point resists all the time.
    So in other words, the power gamers would be punished by having to endure other players getting the same buffs they get. The power gamers would no longer have it easier than everyone else. Yes, I can see what a horrible punishment that would be.
    Last edited by Tshober; 08-30-2012 at 10:12 AM.

  7. #27
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    the problem is the buffs themselves, they are not merely convenience buffs but game altering power especially in the first half of the lvl spectrum. casters have to reach lvl 11 to provide 30 point resist is just a single example of how bad those kind of buffs where to add.

    I am all for things like the xp shrine, even the minor +1 stat shrines. I really dont mind things like the bar,mailbox, and chest. Those are all useful perks without totally altering the way the game is played. With the changes to AC now even the defensive buffs that once helped to push ACs into early on unhittable numbers with the right twink gear is now only modestly useful.

    It really annoys be honestly because the ones that grant resistance to el dmg not only trivialize lvl 11 and under content against casters, but begs the logical question of where do these powerful protective shrines come from? Because most who make magical items especially those that defend against their own magic,rarely make them accessible to anyone else.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    the problem is the buffs themselves, they are not merely convenience buffs but game altering power especially in the first half of the lvl spectrum. casters have to reach lvl 11 to provide 30 point resist is just a single example of how bad those kind of buffs where to add.

    I am all for things like the xp shrine, even the minor +1 stat shrines. I really dont mind things like the bar,mailbox, and chest. Those are all useful perks without totally altering the way the game is played. With the changes to AC now even the defensive buffs that once helped to push ACs into early on unhittable numbers with the right twink gear is now only modestly useful.

    It really annoys be honestly because the ones that grant resistance to el dmg not only trivialize lvl 11 and under content against casters, but begs the logical question of where do these powerful protective shrines come from? Because most who make magical items especially those that defend against their own magic,rarely make them accessible to anyone else.
    The problem is the current system rewards anti-social behavior and punishes anything else. There are two ways I can see to fix that. One way would be to remove the rewards. In other words take away the ship buffs or diminish their uesefulness greatly. But that smacks of nerfing because the buffs have been in place awhile and people have become used to them. The other way is to eliminate the division of players into desirable and undesirable and make all players desirable again (from a renown perspective). The way to do that is to remove or greatly diminish the decay portion of the guild leveling formula. That is the one I advocate because that one does not involve any nerfing and so would involve fewer people opposing it, IMO. Plus that will make guild renown work like every other part of DDO does.
    Last edited by Tshober; 08-30-2012 at 11:37 AM.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    the problem is the buffs themselves, they are not merely convenience buffs but game altering power especially in the first half of the lvl spectrum. casters have to reach lvl 11 to provide 30 point resist is just a single example of how bad those kind of buffs where to add.

    I am all for things like the xp shrine, even the minor +1 stat shrines. I really dont mind things like the bar,mailbox, and chest. Those are all useful perks without totally altering the way the game is played. With the changes to AC now even the defensive buffs that once helped to push ACs into early on unhittable numbers with the right twink gear is now only modestly useful.

    It really annoys be honestly because the ones that grant resistance to el dmg not only trivialize lvl 11 and under content against casters, but begs the logical question of where do these powerful protective shrines come from? Because most who make magical items especially those that defend against their own magic,rarely make them accessible to anyone else.
    Fine for you, I like the buffs, I earned the buffs. To answer your question, the airship is powered by elementals, the elementals are the conduit for the +30 shrines (smaller ships are smaller and use smaller elementals, so only provide the +10 and +20 shrines.)
    Completionist Lighthardtt Tuisian of Sarlona
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  10. #30
    Community Member Falco_Easts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tshober View Post
    Yes, people are making the decision you state. But Turbine is encouraging and rewarding that decsion, and they should not be. I want Turbine to stop rewarding that anti-social behavior and stop punishing those who do choose guild friendship. It's that simple. If you want guilds to be about friendship, then why on Earth would you reward those who make it about guild level instead of friendship, and punish those who don't? The rewards system should encourage a friendly guild enviroment, or at least not discourage it. The system we have now encourages and rewards anti-social behavior and punishes the opposite.
    Tell me exactely how guilds that choose friendship over levels are being penalised. if the buffs are really that important to them there is normally a PUG'ger who will offer a ship invite. I would say choosing levels over friendship is penalising you more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tshober View Post
    So in other words, the power gamers would be punished by having to endure other players getting the same buffs they get. The power gamers would no longer have it easier than everyone else. Yes, I can see what a horrible punishment that would be.
    You don't get it to do. If everyone has these buffs all the time the game would be scaled accordingly. Meaning all elemental traps doing 30 points more damage. All enemy casters doing 30 points more damage. Not only would this effectively mean those buffs are worthless it also means new players would get creamed. It would mean running back to the ship every hour to get rebuffed to play at level content. My preferred option would be to remove the resists all together but if they have to stay they should only go to those that worked for them.
    A friend will bail you out of jail.
    A mate will be sitting in there beside you saying "Damn that was awsome!!!"

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  11. #31
    Community Member t0r012's Avatar
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    Saying you want a public solution to renown decay implies there is a problem with decay.

    There is not.

    You look at renown and guild levels as a right when it is a privilege.
    Guild levels are a reward to you for having an active guild.

    You say " but to get levels we have to kick out our inactive/casuals/friends" .
    That is one way to look at it if you are a cruel person who likes to boot your friends.

    The other way to look at it is that you aren't doing your part to make your guild exciting enough to keep your guild mates active.
    ---------
    You see guild levels and ships and buffs and all of that are rewards from turbine for making an active sociable guild that engages players to get more screen time and thus more likely to generate revenue for turbine.
    The more screen time players havethe Better their chance of getting a points sale.

    To sum up , stop think of decay as you getting punished for having casuals in your guild , turbine could completely remove guilds levels/ships/buffs tomorrow if they wanted to.
    And start thinking of ways to get those casual players excited to play DDO and start collecting the renown you so desperately desire.
    Move along , Nothing to see here

  12. #32
    Community Member eris2323's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by t0r012 View Post
    Saying you want a public solution to renown decay implies there is a problem with decay.

    There is not.

    You look at renown and guild levels as a right when it is a privilege.
    Guild levels are a reward to you for having an active guild.

    You say " but to get levels we have to kick out our inactive/casuals/friends" .
    That is one way to look at it if you are a cruel person who likes to boot your friends.

    The other way to look at it is that you aren't doing your part to make your guild exciting enough to keep your guild mates active.
    ---------
    You see guild levels and ships and buffs and all of that are rewards from turbine for making an active sociable guild that engages players to get more screen time and thus more likely to generate revenue for turbine.
    The more screen time players havethe Better their chance of getting a points sale.

    To sum up , stop think of decay as you getting punished for having casuals in your guild , turbine could completely remove guilds levels/ships/buffs tomorrow if they wanted to.
    And start thinking of ways to get those casual players excited to play DDO and start collecting the renown you so desperately desire.
    No. It is YOUR OPINION that there is not a problem with renown and decay.

    It is OTHER PEOPLES opinions that there is.

    It is not a matter of OPINION that casual players hurt guilds currently, it is proven math.

    Just because you don't think there's a problem, doesn't mean there isn't a problem.
    If I seem rude, I'm sorry, I just have strong feelings about this game, since I've only played two games in the last few years., and this is my only multiplayer game. I'm much nicer in game.
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  13. #33
    Community Member t0r012's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eris2323 View Post
    No. It is YOUR OPINION that there is not a problem with renown and decay.

    It is OTHER PEOPLES opinions that there is.

    It is not a matter of OPINION that casual players hurt guilds currently, it is proven math.

    Just because you don't think there's a problem, doesn't mean there isn't a problem.
    Your inability to excite your fellow guildies in to playing more is what is "hurting" your guild.
    I'm not disagreeing that having people that play casually or infrequently loses your guild renown.
    Quite the contrary , I'm saying that is the point of decay and it is WAI.

    What I am pointing out is that this thread and the many like it are calling for a fix to a system that is doing exactly as it was desigined/intended to do.

    The burden is on you and your guild to make things exciting to encourage your casuals o play more.
    Move along , Nothing to see here

  14. #34
    Community Member eris2323's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by t0r012 View Post
    Your inability to excite your fellow guildies in to playing more is what is "hurting" your guild.
    I'm not disagreeing that having people that play casually or infrequently loses your guild renown.
    Quite the contrary , I'm saying that is the point of decay and it is WAI.

    What I am pointing out is that this thread and the many like it are calling for a fix to a system that is doing exactly as it was desigined/intended to do.

    The burden is on you and your guild to make things exciting to encourage your casuals o play more.
    No, the burden is on Turbine to make a fun game.

    In my eyes, and the eyes of many other, the guild system is NOT FUN.

    If they want me to pay money for a game, it better be fun - currently, it's not so fun. I haven't given them any money in ages - and I won't, until the game is both fun for me, and again something I would recommend to friends (sorry, it's so not, right now)

    "My inability to excite guild members" lol - what a crock.

    People have real lives. People have work. People have kids.

    Your opinion is just that, your opinion. Feel welcome to it. Embrace it.

    It's not fact, however. It's just your opinion.
    If I seem rude, I'm sorry, I just have strong feelings about this game, since I've only played two games in the last few years., and this is my only multiplayer game. I'm much nicer in game.
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  15. #35
    Community Member Falco_Easts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eris2323 View Post
    It is not a matter of OPINION that casual players hurt guilds gaining level 100 currently, it is proven math.
    Fixed that for you.

    It is your OPINION that guild levels are more important then friends. FACT.
    A friend will bail you out of jail.
    A mate will be sitting in there beside you saying "Damn that was awsome!!!"

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  16. #36
    Community Member eris2323's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falco_Easts View Post
    Fixed that for you.

    It is your OPINION that guild levels are more important then friends. FACT.
    Really? Now you're telling me what MY opinion is?

    Just... no.

    Go away.
    If I seem rude, I'm sorry, I just have strong feelings about this game, since I've only played two games in the last few years., and this is my only multiplayer game. I'm much nicer in game.
    - Sinicala, leader of Griffons Nest - Sarlona

  17. #37
    Community Member t0r012's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eris2323 View Post
    No, the burden is on Turbine to make a fun game.

    In my eyes, and the eyes of many other, the guild system is NOT FUN.

    If they want me to pay money for a game, it better be fun - currently, it's not so fun. I haven't given them any money in ages - and I won't, until the game is both fun for me, and again something I would recommend to friends (sorry, it's so not, right now)

    "My inability to excite guild members" lol - what a crock.

    People have real lives. People have work. People have kids.

    Your opinion is just that, your opinion. Feel welcome to it. Embrace it.

    It's not fact, however. It's just your opinion.
    You keep saying things like opinion and fact and not speaking to any of the points I am making.
    -----
    The one thing you did respond " turbine needs to make guild system fun"
    Guilds only add a social interaction framework to the game, nothing more nothing less.
    They can add incentives for people to strive to achieve like bigger ships and better buffs. That they have done.
    They can't make guilds fun.
    The only ones that can make guilds fun are the players in the guild. If you make your guild fun , engaging and something people want to come and join you you will get renown you want.
    If you just expect people to join a guild just because and improve it , just because there is very little motivation to do so.

    Plan some guild events , naked shrouds , raid training runs , something, anything to get people in your guild excited and playing and renown decay won't be such an issue for your guild.

    -----

    I'll try and reiterate my over arching point in different terms.

    Guilds were made to encourage people to play more because they have in game friends that do fun things together. Turbine encouraged this with the guild system so more people would play their game more.
    They specifically built in a mechanic (decay) that would incentivize guilds to keep their member engaged and playing more frequently and for longer.

    This leaves you two options
    1. Rail against the decay system as if it is broken when it is doing just as intended
    Or
    2. Come up with ways to get you guildies to play more
    Move along , Nothing to see here

  18. #38
    Community Member eris2323's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by t0r012 View Post
    You keep saying things like opinion and fact and not speaking to any of the points I am making.
    -----
    The one thing you did respond " turbine needs to make guild system fun"
    Guilds only add a social interaction framework to the game, nothing more nothing less.
    They can add incentives for people to strive to achieve like bigger ships and better buffs. That they have done.
    They can't make guilds fun.
    The only ones that can make guilds fun are the players in the guild. If you make your guild fun , engaging and something people want to come and join you you will get renown you want.
    If you just expect people to join a guild just because and improve it , just because there is very little motivation to do so.

    Plan some guild events , naked shrouds , raid training runs , something, anything to get people in your guild excited and playing and renown decay won't be such an issue for your guild.

    -----

    I'll try and reiterate my over arching point in different terms.

    Guilds were made to encourage people to play more because they have in game friends that do fun things together. Turbine encouraged this with the guild system so more people would play their game more.
    They specifically built in a mechanic (decay) that would incentivize guilds to keep their member engaged and playing more frequently and for longer.

    This leaves you two options
    1. Rail against the decay system as if it is broken when it is doing just as intended
    Or
    2. Come up with ways to get you guildies to play more
    Blah Blah, failed save vs wall of text.

    Not really interested in fighting with forum people over this yet again.

    Your opinion is that the system is exactly perfect.

    My opinion is that it is not, and that it hurts casual and new players.

    You have no idea what I have done, or have not done, in-game, so don't even bother trying to give advice, I'm not looking for advice. This isn't my thread, and I don't even really support THIS idea, I support other ideas.

    There's only so many times you can argue an issue with faceless forum people before you get tired of it.

    Occasionally, when I see some forum user stating that 'EVERYTHING IS FINE THIS IS THE WAY ITS SPOSED TO BE SHUT UP EVERYONE ELSE' I like to remind people that other people have opinions too.

    As is pretty evident by the number of people complaining about guild renown over the years.

    Of course, then we get people with forum sigs like 'UNGUILDED OF ORION' - well, I'd have to look it up... is that a guild? Is that person even in a guild? Is that person an officer? A leader? Any experience at all?

    Nope, sounds to me like just another faceless forum user come here to fight.

    Lame.
    If I seem rude, I'm sorry, I just have strong feelings about this game, since I've only played two games in the last few years., and this is my only multiplayer game. I'm much nicer in game.
    - Sinicala, leader of Griffons Nest - Sarlona

  19. #39
    Community Member t0r012's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eris2323 View Post
    Blah Blah, failed save vs wall of text.

    Not really interested in fighting with forum people over this yet again.

    Your opinion is that the system is exactly perfect.

    My opinion is that it is not, and that it hurts casual and new players.

    You have no idea what I have done, or have not done, in-game, so don't even bother trying to give advice, I'm not looking for advice. This isn't my thread, and I don't even really support THIS idea, I support other ideas.

    There's only so many times you can argue an issue with faceless forum people before you get tired of it.

    Occasionally, when I see some forum user stating that 'EVERYTHING IS FINE THIS IS THE WAY ITS SPOSED TO BE SHUT UP EVERYONE ELSE' I like to remind people that other people have opinions too.

    As is pretty evident by the number of people complaining about guild renown over the years.

    Of course, then we get people with forum sigs like 'UNGUILDED OF ORION' - well, I'd have to look it up... is that a guild? Is that person even in a guild? Is that person an officer? A leader? Any experience at all?

    Nope, sounds to me like just another faceless forum user come here to fight.

    Lame.
    I'll ignore the silly ,hyperbole and down right incorrect in your post and focus on the actual topic of discussion.

    Your right , I have no idea what you have tried and haven't tried with your guild to bring up the activity level. I don't need to know, I simply threw out examples off of the top of my head as examples.
    I wasn't asking if you had tried any my point was guilds in general need to find ways to engage their players so they can reap the rewards. So you haven't found the thing that does it for your guildies ,try more , try different.

    Never once did I say everything is prefect ,all I said was it is WAI.


    You have a very hostile attitude and seem to think I'm a troll looking for a fight , I'm not.

    I'll just pointout that instead of spending this time here discussing the decay system you could be thinking up and implementing some new ideas to engage your guildies to come play more.
    ----------
    Move along , Nothing to see here

  20. #40
    Community Member eris2323's Avatar
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    If you think I have a hostile attitude on the forums - sorry. Comes with dealing with this issue for so long, having people tell me off, tell me "I'm doing it wrong", making jokes at my expense, and all the other things they constantly do on this forum. Some will get removed, some will not. But I'm just very tired of most of this 'community' of people. Most of them are solely concerned with 'keeping the shiny stuff to all the powergamers', and that's the only reason they oppose any decay changes - it's kinda sad, and a little sick.

    So yeah. I'm a little sick of the attitude of most of the forum folks.

    I have no interest in doing Turbines job of keeping players engaged, and keeping them playing every day, and I don't believe people should be forced, enticed, or even asked to play every day. I want to play the game, not play stupid numbers games with Turbine software, without even the proper tools to do so. I... kind of want to play the game myself, not be a stupid renown-cop for Turbines broken system.

    I also want to have casual players without being penalized (as much).

    To me, this system is entirely broken. I will not give another red cent to this company, personally - not only because of that, but because of the bugs. I'd reconsider my stance when and if they decide that it is okay to have casual players in guilds, and not penalize us for it as much. When the game becomes, once again, a game I can recommend to my friends, they will get my money again.

    Until then, Not a cent more. Not a single cent.
    If I seem rude, I'm sorry, I just have strong feelings about this game, since I've only played two games in the last few years., and this is my only multiplayer game. I'm much nicer in game.
    - Sinicala, leader of Griffons Nest - Sarlona

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