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  1. #81
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Yes, I understand all the whys and wherefores. I'm just not pleased that the solution provided does not address the entire community, but instead only addresses that subset that falls within Turbine's easy to implement current technology. The problems were not well anticipated early on, the solution was not given the priority it deserved. What we got was a half hearted placation.

    Personally, I'll only be rebuilding my main. He'll need an Align change and possibly a Race as well, which means what will actually happen is a TR, probably...

  2. #82
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    I'm just not pleased that the solution provided does not address the entire community, but instead only addresses that subset that falls within Turbine's easy to implement current technology.
    So in other words, it works perfectly fine for doing what it was designed to do which is to replace X number (maximum) of classes chosen from your character while staying within those rule bounds, but letting you change your skill, stat, and feat selections.

    But you still want to call it broke because it doesn't do what you want it to do which is an utter, no holds bared, rebuild.

    *sigh*

  3. #83
    Community Member Henky's Avatar
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    I'm back to the thread to report that in lama, i could change my melee arti into a full juggernaut with the LR+20 given. My toon was:

    1-2. Arti
    3-4. Monk
    5-6. Fighter
    7-20. Arti

    With the +3 Heart that i bought tried:

    1-2. Arti
    3-4. Monk
    5-6. Ranger
    7-20. Arti

    But i couldnt do it, the 4th class error poped up, so i left the toon with 2 fighter levels.

    With the U19 on lama i used the LR+20 to change it.

    1-2. Arti
    3-4. Monk
    5-6. Arti (this will get rid of the fighter class, if i try here ranger levels i get the 4th class pop up, at least in level 5, i guess in level 6 is fine to switch class too)
    7-8. Ranger (yes, now i could select ranger as new class)
    9-20. Arti

    So, for me the problem is solved and you can take a 3rd class during LR.
    Last edited by Henky; 08-05-2013 at 12:53 PM.
    Thelanis - Officer of Reinos Olvidados: Henkyh, Neghi, Konokka, Kufei, Bartolomew, Rovinh, Artinata

  4. #84
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henky View Post
    I'm back to the thread to report that in lama, i could change my melee arti into a full juggernaut with the LR+20 given. My toon was:

    1-2. Arti
    3-4. Monk
    5-6. Fighter
    7-20. Arti

    With the +3 Heart that i bought tried:

    1-2. Arti
    3-4. Monk
    5-6. Ranger
    7-20. Arti

    But i couldnt do it, the 4th class error poped up, so i left the toon with 2 fighter levels.
    Correct, you would have had 4 classes as soon as you tried to swap out a fighter for ranger. This is WAI as has been stated.

  5. #85
    Community Member Henky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    Correct, you would have had 4 classes as soon as you tried to swap out a fighter for ranger. This is WAI as has been stated.
    Yes, i know that now, but not when i bought the +3 heart.

    The pop up doesnt give you enough information, a message explaining the problem and what you can change and what not should be there when you get the 4th class message. Remember that not all the player reads the forums.
    Thelanis - Officer of Reinos Olvidados: Henkyh, Neghi, Konokka, Kufei, Bartolomew, Rovinh, Artinata

  6. #86
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    So in other words, it works perfectly fine for doing what it was designed to do which is to replace X number (maximum) of classes chosen from your character while staying within those rule bounds, but letting you change your skill, stat, and feat selections.

    But you still want to call it broke because it doesn't do what you want it to do which is an utter, no holds bared, rebuild.

    *sigh*
    ** double sigh **

    Take a 2 class split. the +20 LR will enable you to do an utter, no holds barred rebuild.

    Take a 3 class split. The +20 LR will NOT enable you to do an utter, no holds barred rebuild.

    Ipso Facto, Concordandtly, Hence, Thusly, the +20 LR solution is not equitable for all players, all builds.

    *** triple sigh ***


    **** In fact, the truth of the situation is much worse than that example. You can +20LR a 20Clr into a 20FvS, but you can't +20LR a 20Barb into a 20Mnk. You Can turn a Lawful 12rgr/6ftr/2rog into a 12rgr/6ftr/2mnk, but you can't do the same with a Neutral 12/6/2. You can turn a 2 class split into another 2 class split, provided it has a similar level ratio, but not if it has a different ratio. You can turn one 3 class split into another as long as one class remains the same. A whole slew of character types, splits, and alignments will be able to make a whole slew of changes, while another significant cross section of characters will NOT.

    so please, stop pointing your finger at me and my alleged sense of entitlement. It IS broken. Obviously so.
    ****
    Last edited by BOgre; 08-05-2013 at 07:35 PM.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    Ipso Facto, Concordandtly, Hence, Thusly, the +20 LR solution is not equitable for all players, all builds.
    Players are not builds and builds are not players. All players get the same benefit and are thus treated equally. My lvl 20 barb has the exact same options as any other players level 20 barb.

    The LR mechanics have had problems with the past regarding alignment and 3 class toons. This doesn't change by increasing the + from 5 to 20. It would be nice if they fixed LRs, but given the severity of any error involved in reincarnation... I can understand that it is not a simple quick fix.

    A LR+20 is the best/easy solution turbine could give to allow the greatest amount of flexibility. I won't argue that some toons/builds gain more than others. I am in 100% disagreement with you that erroring on the side of being generous is a mistake that needs to be fixed.

  8. #88
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    I am in 100% disagreement with you that erroring on the side of being generous is a mistake that needs to be fixed.
    That is not even remotely my position.

  9. #89
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    so please, stop pointing your finger at me and my alleged sense of entitlement. It IS broken. Obviously so.
    **** quadruple sigh ****

    And if you had bothered to read the thread where the discussion was the +20 you would have have seen that I ready commented on it and fact you go on and on and dare I say on and on again? (guess so) means exactly as I stated previously.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    That is not even remotely my position.
    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    A whole slew of character types, splits, and alignments will be able to make a whole slew of changes, while another significant cross section of characters will NOT.

    so please, stop pointing your finger at me and my alleged sense of entitlement. It IS broken. Obviously so.
    ****
    So you didn't mean the last two sentences of your post?

  11. #91
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henky View Post
    The pop up doesnt give you enough information, a message explaining the problem and what you can change and what not should be there when you get the 4th class message. Remember that not all the player reads the forums.
    I don't give a damn that not all players read the forums nor the wiki. I hope that is perfectly clear.

    That said, I do not disagree with you. What is posted in the link below about reincarnation, (and yes, you can get there from Turbine's front page.)
    https://www.ddo.com/en/game/game-gui...arnation-guide
    Kruz's dialog, nor what is in the descriptions with the wood in the store denote that explicitly.

    Careful reading analysis of the descriptions is necessary to realize that if you can only change X number of levels, the game will retain it. Lets face it, it should be obvious if you are paying for something (typically), it is not going to let you get freebie changes later on if the rules are broken.

    It would definitely be better if Turbine updated the descriptions to make that crystal clear.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    It would definitely be better if Turbine updated the descriptions to make that crystal clear.
    And it would be even better if they actually corrected the behavior of the LR/GR mechanic to work the way most of their customers expect it to. Wouldn't it?

    Rereading this thread is bizarre.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Please provide a reference to where Turbine calls it (the inability to freely change out classes once you are at the 3 class maximum) a bug. I am not aware that this has ever been identified as a bug.
    Well, from this very same thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    The bug (as I understand it) doesn't prevent someone with three classes from LRing (except it can cause issues as described below.) Rather, it prevents someone with three classes from taking a class they don't already have during the +LR process. This is an issue that is being addressed, hopefully in the near future.

    What's happening is that we have a limitation in the game that you can only have three classes, and during the LR process, the system already knows what three classes you had. So, while you - should - be able to use a +LR to take a class you don't already have, provided that at the end you end up with three classes, the system gets bugged because it treats that new class as a fourth class. Which means under certain circumstances you can become stuck on the airship and need GM assistance.
    It seems pretty obvious from this statement that LR/GR is indeed not actually "working as intended" in the case described, that Turbine is aware, and that it is "being addressed".

    Now when someone points out that we're about to have a situation where every character in game has an LR+20 token, it's also pretty obvious that the stage is set for sizable levels of confusion, disappointment and complaints when even persons who would never have bought an LR/GR heart go ahead and try to use the token to change their build up and discover that changing one valid 3 class split to a different valid 3 class split isn't necessarily the seamless process that Cordovan explicitly says it should be, and in fact could end up leaving their character broken, at least from the customer's perspective.

    It isn't about turning the LR+20 token into a "total rebuild" or entitlement issues, it's about a reasonable customer expectation that when using the lesser reincarnation with class level change mechanism, as stated by Cordovan, "you - should - be able to use a +LR to take a class you don't already have, provided that at the end you end up with three classes".

  13. #93
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    1) Obviously I can't see the code, but I can see that the super simple solution of only keeping a tally of current number of classes wouldn't work with lesser hearts of <+20, as you could have unchangeable levels of a 4th class (after you had used up all of your allocated level swaps) late in your level progression.

    PROPOSED SOLUTION #1:
    Is it possible that LR+20 hearts could just skip the LR heart "do you have later levels of other classes that would make the number total of classes > 3" check, which I assume is in addition to the regular check of all level-ups asking "are you trying to take a 4th character class?"

    2) Assumedly this is in the works to be fixed for Lesser Hearts generally, it would be great if that was pre-U19.

    PROPOSED SOLUTION #2:
    Change the existing check to a slightly fancier algorithm that checks:

    How many class swaps your heart has left
    >
    The minimum number of levels in what would be classes in excess of three you have left according to your original progression
    (taking into account the classes you have definitely selected so far).

    I struggle to imagine that would be particularly difficult to do, but my memory of references to "ddo's spaghetti code" mean I'm understanding if it is.

    3) If this is not really on the table to be fixed anytime soon:

    PROPOSED SOLUTION #3:
    Have a warning at the time of taking the 3rd class at a trainer, rather than on the heart itself, since by then it's a bit late.

    4) I'm not too perturbed despite the frustration of my plans to LR my 12 Wiz / 6 Monk / 2 Ranger into a pure Rogue, as I'm happy to check out the new endgame and maybe do a fancy new Epic TR if that is coming with this update anyway, or TR anyway in order to go drow. Gotta love drow rogues.

    Having said that, I object to the strange metrics this thread appears to espouse for eligibility for full use of the LR+20 hearts:
    - "can your character still do the same role they could before or not?"
    - "Is your build a flavour of the month?"
    - "Is it a Monkcher?"

    We didn't quite reach the point of "Awww whaddaya need all those classes for anyway?", but I'm not a fan of the strangely judgmental attitudes.

    Turbine's plan - I think it's extremely reasonable to posit, but these being the internets we'll see - was to allow every character to change all of their class levels and not randomly exclude people with 3 classes.

    5) It's fair to say that some people understand how process of ensuring no more than 3 classes are taken during an LR works. It's not fair to say that characters with 3 classes shouldn't be able to freely swap levels up to the enhancement bonus of their Lesser Heart.

    "I understand why this happens" is not "this is working as intended".
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  14. #94
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    And it would be even better if they actually corrected the behavior of the LR/GR mechanic to work the way most of their customers expect it to. Wouldn't it?
    Hard to say really. Would it be nice if you could swap as you wanted? Sure it would. But then you end up having broken characters or freebie swapping later on. And when you are a store based MMO, can you afford to have these freebies like that? I wouldn't think so, but I'm not a bean counter.

    Lets face it, when a mechanic is known, players will abuse it. That is one of the reasons why they are so darn secretive about how things work.

    As far as what Cordovan stated, he has also stated that he is NOT a developer and you do not want him coding. Therefore, I can't take it as a serious statement of him calling it a bug within the mechanic. A bug of the description not being accurate enough? Sure.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    Hard to say really. Would it be nice if you could swap as you wanted? Sure it would.
    Well then that wasn't so hard to say after all. Sure it would!

    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    As far as what Cordovan stated, he has also stated that he is NOT a developer and you do not want him coding. Therefore, I can't take it as a serious statement of him calling it a bug within the mechanic. A bug of the description not being accurate enough? Sure.
    We have an official Turbine representative refer to the scenario people are griping about not once but twice as a bug, acknowledged that the limitation, not the description, "is an issue that is being addressed", and told us exactly how it should function. C'mon now - he doesn't have to know C++ or how to change the code to be able to accurately relay that information to the players.

    However, his statements obviously say nothing about priority or timeline, and I suspect it wont be addressed before U19 and the LR+20 tokens drop, which gets back to the gripe - for me, this mismatch between customer expectations and current functionality fits squarely in the "quality of life" box and by not prioritizing that kind of stuff higher they've set themselves up for a lot more customer disappointment regarding this specific scenario.

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