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  1. #61
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    To repeat, you CAN take a 3rd class during the LR. You CANNOT change out a class if you have 3 classes already without multiple LRs. That is how it is presently anyway, so WAI.
    No, this is NOT WAI. A 3 class split should be able switch out one class for another with a single LR. Requiring multiple hearts to drop a class then re-add another is a workaround for the bug, but it's still a bug. And since this DIRECTLY affects characters which will break in the enhancement pass, and since a +20LR is being issued to address that issue, and since presumably MANY players will attempt to repair their characters at that point using the token, we can assume that chaos will ensue.

    Your so-called solution in no way addresses this problem. Citing possible exploitation is helpful, as it can alert Turb to NOT screw this up with a sloppy fix. But don't make it seem like it shouldn't be fixed.

  2. #62
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    The issue of GM assistance in this case is a non-issue.
    How do you figure that? Two GMs, same issue. Two responses, both wrong. That seems like a deal breaker to me. GM competence is VERY much an issue, a current issue, a long standing issue. I too have stood on the apologist side of a few issues during my time here, but the issue of proper in-game customer service is not one of those. GMs need fixed BADLY!

  3. #63
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    No, this is NOT WAI. A 3 class split should be able switch out one class for another with a single LR.
    Why?

    Just because you screwed up your character when you made it, that is not Turbine's fault or any other person's fault. It was your decision to build the character the way it is.

    The ability to reincarnate and make changes is not something that is owed to you. If you made a mistake in building your character that is not anyone's fault but your own.

    DDO constantly changes. One build becomes obsolete and another one becomes the "flavor of the moment." Turbine is under no obligation to help you stay at the leading edge with whatever build happens to develop just because it is now "better" than what you were playing to start with.

    Turbine's providing reincarnation is an attempt by them to help. When you find that the build you made isn't the great thing you thought it would be, Turbine gives you the opportunity to make changes. If that requires multiple passes through the reincarnation process then that is the price you pay for making bad build decisions to start with.

    Under no circumstance does Turbine owe it to you to allow you wholesale changes -- including completely trading one character class for another. You have no right to expect such an option and your sense of entitlement is without merit.

    Now, Turbine could (if they really feel it is in their interest to do so) cause the LR20 to completely wipe your character's present classes and allow you to level up to your current level following the rules about maximum of 3 character classes. I don't know how difficult that would be to code (I tend to have a very low opinion of the skill level of DDO's developers, so presume it is easy but beyond their skill level). But, it would not be something Turbine did because the players were entitled to it -- it would be something they did because they were going out of their way to be customer focused.

    IMO it isn't necessary. People demanding that they be able to make wholesale changes to their characters are individuals who are trying to remain at the top of the elite heap. They want to take every advantage of the upcoming enhancement system and they've plotted character builds that exploit the system.

    That exploitation of the system is why they have the characters they are currently running. It is a natural occurrence and is perfectly fine. But, it was their decision as a player to make that build. If Turbine's changes make the build obsolete that is the risk that the players took in making the builds to start with.
    Last edited by IWCoppercrest; 07-27-2013 at 09:22 PM.

  4. #64
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    How do you figure that? Two GMs, same issue. Two responses, both wrong. That seems like a deal breaker to me. GM competence is VERY much an issue, a current issue, a long standing issue. I too have stood on the apologist side of a few issues during my time here, but the issue of proper in-game customer service is not one of those. GMs need fixed BADLY!
    Because it isn't a GM issue. Never was a GM issue. Still isn't a GM issue. No matter what the GM told OP it would have been wrong because the GM had no ability to fix the problem.

    Consequently it isn't anything at all to do with the GMs or their competence. The original issue was a code problem that has been fixed. The right way to fix such problems is to bug report them and then wait on the developers to run down the code and fix it. That did happen.

    So, it is a non-issue. Players with epic levels CAN reincarnate and the game no longer thinks that the epic levels are a third character class. They can add a third class if the did not have one using a + heartwood. The original problem has been fixed.

    Cordovan asked if anyone had tried using the LR to see if it had been fixed. I did test it out on Lamannia and it does work properly.

    So, no issue thus no problem.

    Turbine does not owe you (or any other player) and immediate fix that meets their (the player's) demands. The OP had no right to an immediate resolution to their problem. And, you have no right to expect more from the GMs than they provide.

    Frankly, I've been playing the game a lot of years and have rarely called on the GMs. My experience is that they've been helpful when the issue is something they can control and help with. Otherwise they are stuck just like we are as players. If they were not there it would not make any difference to my playing the game.
    Last edited by IWCoppercrest; 07-27-2013 at 09:31 PM.

  5. #65
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Just because you screwed up your character

    Um, no. The enhancement pass does not allow me reset enhancements and return my perfectly valid Tempest Trapmonkey to any semblance of it's former functionality. Many many many builds are in the same boat. This has nothing to do with Flavors of the Month.


    The ability to reincarnate and make changes is not something that is owed to you. If you made a mistake in building your character that is not anyone's fault but your own.

    Um, no. The ability to reincarnate and make changes is something that is included in the functionality of Reincarnation. I expect Hearts to function as described, specifically the ability of +x hearts to allow changing x number of class selection choices, provided this does not result in more than a 3 class split. Therefor changing an 18Rgr/1Rog/1Ftr into an 18Rgr/1Mnk/1Brb is perfectly valid and should work. The fact that it does not IS unintentional, it is a bug, it is admitted to being a bug, and it should be fixed, despite your obfuscating the issue behind personal attacks and namecalling.

    DDO constantly changes. One build becomes obsolete and another one becomes the "flavor of the moment." Turbine is under no obligation to help you stay at the leading edge with whatever build happens to develop just because it is now "better" than what you were playing to start with.

    Again, you are making some invalid assumptions and accusations. An 18/1/1 Tempest Trapmonkey is not a flavor of the month. Neither is it a "leading edge" build. Again, many many builds are in the situation that the enhancement pass will cause their character to become severly broken. It IS Turbine's obligation, or at least their ethical duty, to provide a working solution to their custumers affected in this way. Please stop pointing the FotM nonsense at us, it doesn't address the ACTUAL mechanics of the bug in question.

    Turbine's providing reincarnation is an attempt by them to help you overcome your own stupidity...the price you pay for making bad build decisions to start with.

    Um, more namecalling? Really? Bad decisions? Really? At this point I just want to say things that will get me banned, instead I'll just report your post.

    Under no circumstance does Turbine owe it to you to allow you wholesale changes -- including completely trading one character class for another.

    That's not what we're asking for. Get a clue.

    IMO it isn't necessary. People demanding that they be able to make wholesale changes to their characters are selfish individuals who are trying to remain at the top of the elite heap. They want to take every advantage of the upcoming enhancement system and they've plotted character builds that exploit the system.

    Again more namecalling, accusations, assumptions. We/I am neither selfish, trying to remain at the top of the elite heap (never been top before, why start now), trying to take advantage, plotting anything, or exploiting anything.


    If Turbine's changes make the build obsolete that is the risk that the players took in making the builds to start with.

    Um, WHAT? the risk we took in making a build? Any build? Playing a character, building it, gearing it, for years, and then having that character obsoleted in one swoop? Are you seriously saying that? Get. A. Clue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Because it isn't a GM issue. Never was a GM issue. Still isn't a GM issue. No matter what the GM told OP it would have been wrong because the GM had no ability to fix the problem.

    The GM DID have the ability to be aware of the known issues list, and be able to provide CORRECT information regarding the solution the the players issue. Even if that meant ccing the support phone number.


    So, it is a non-issue. Players with epic levels CAN reincarnate and the game no longer thinks that the epic levels are a third character class. They can add a third class if the did not have one using a + heartwood. The original problem has been fixed.

    Perhaps, but the 3classLR problem remains, and it is still costing players a heart, and it is still causing characters to be stuck on the ship. Try to keep up.

    Your GM rant is without merit since it was never an issue that the GMs could resolve to start with.

    It was not a rant. The problem is that the tools we are given to recieve support are not adequate, and that our front line of support, the GM, needs to be better equipped to do his job. Period.

    But, it is consistent with your sense of entitlement

    Thanks for having an intelligent point from which to argue. There's a difference between entitlement and customer satisfaction.
    I'm kicking myself for +1'ing you earlier. I thought some intelligent discussion would be a good thing. Didn't realize you were just going be insulting and obtuse.
    Last edited by BOgre; 07-27-2013 at 07:03 PM.

  6. #66
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Um, no. The enhancement pass does not allow me reset enhancements and return my perfectly valid Tempest Trapmonkey to any semblance of it's former functionality. Many many many builds are in the same boat. This has nothing to do with Flavors of the Month.

    What does the enhancement pass take away from your build?

    Um, no. The ability to reincarnate and make changes is something that is included in the functionality of Reincarnation. I expect Hearts to function as described, specifically the ability of +x hearts to allow changing x number of class selection choices, provided this does not result in more than a 3 class split. Therefor changing an 18Rgr/1Rog/1Ftr into an 18Rgr/1Mnk/1Brb is perfectly valid and should work. The fact that it does not IS unintentional, it is a bug, it is admitted to being a bug, and it should be fixed, despite your obfuscating the issue behind personal attacks and namecalling.

    Unless the game has changed 1 Monk/1 Barbarian has never been perfectly valid. But, the fact that you ask for an invalid class combination demonstrates that you are not thinking about the issue, you are just ranting.

    Please provide a reference to where Turbine calls it (the inability to freely change out classes once you are at the 3 class maximum) a bug. I am not aware that this has ever been identified as a bug. To the contrary, the limitation has been there for as long as there has been reincarnation.

    The only bug that existed was with epic levels preventing players from taking a third class if they did not already have it. That was a bug and that is fixed.


    Again, you are making some invalid assumptions and accusations. An 18/1/1 Tempest Trapmonkey is not a flavor of the month. Neither is it a "leading edge" build. Again, many many builds are in the situation that the enhancement pass will cause their character to become severly broken. It IS Turbine's obligation, or at least their ethical duty, to provide a working solution to their custumers affected in this way. Please stop pointing the FotM nonsense at us, it doesn't address the ACTUAL mechanics of the bug in question.

    No, it is not their obligation. Neither is it their ethical duty. You need to prove that you cannot have the same or better character with the enhancement pass before you start whining about the need for change. I do not believe that your character needs class changes to be of equivalent functionality.

    Um, more namecalling? Really? Bad decisions? Really? At this point I just want to say things that will get me banned, instead I'll just report your post.

    Go ahead. That's the normal response of people who have nothing of substance to their point of view. Rather than demonstrate a real need just scream and holler and, when that doesn't work, blame the other person for pointing out that you've got no basis for your complaint.

    Under no circumstance does Turbine owe it to you to allow you wholesale changes -- including completely trading one character class for another.

    That's not what we're asking for. Get a clue.

    Yes it is. It is EXACTLY what is being asked for. Not only do you want to be able to eliminate an unwanted class but you want to be able to take as many levels in the now desired class as you want. I not only have a clue, I see past your obvious false claims to the contrary.

    Again more namecalling, accusations, assumptions. We/I am neither selfish, trying to remain at the top of the elite heap (never been top before, why start now), trying to take advantage, plotting anything, or exploiting anything.

    Let's pretend for just a moment that you want to change your 18/1/1 to a valid alternative build that remains a Tempest Trapmonkey. Explain to me how you cannot keep the current classes and levels, why you cannot have the same functionality, and what it is you want to have.

    If you are going to tell me that you want it to no longer be a Tempest Trapmonkey then you absolutely ARE simply trying to get a different, better, more advantageous build and you're expecting Turbine to do all the work for you to enable that to happen.

    But, if you really are just looking to keep the same functionality then prove it. Tell me what is changing and why the new enhancement system won't let you keep the abilities you now have.


    Um, WHAT? the risk we took in making a build? Any build? Playing a character, building it, gearing it, for years, and then having that character obsoleted in one swoop? Are you seriously saying that? Get. A. Clue..

    That's twice you've said "get a clue." The problem is, I know exactly what it is you are asking for. You are claiming your build is obsolete but you've not shown that to be the case. So, what is it you can do now that you won't be able to do equally well once the enhancement pass goes live.

    Perhaps, but the 3classLR problem remains, and it is still costing players a heart, and it is still causing characters to be stuck on the ship. Try to keep up.

    No it is not. I LR'd 3 characters. The only thing that I could not do was change an unwanted class from a 3 class character to a wanted class. No stuck on ship, no other issues. Go to Lamannia and test it yourself. You are not correct. Whatever issues did exist do not exist now.

    It was not a rant. The problem is that the tools we are given to recieve support are not adequate, and that our front line of support, the GM, needs to be better equipped to do his job. Period.

    Unlike you, I find nothing wrong with the work the GMs do. The only time there ever seems to be a problem is when a player comes to the forums and makes spurious claims about what the GM did or did not do or say. There is no reason to believe those claims are true. It is just as likely that the posters are full of the same sense of self entitlement that you show and, in their anger, represent what occurred in the worst light in order to evoke sympathetic responses.

    As the old saying goes, screen shot or it did not happen.


    Thanks for having an intelligent point from which to argue. There's a difference between entitlement and customer satisfaction.

    You would have a lot more satisfaction if you had a lot lower sense of entitlement.

  7. #67
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    I thought some intelligent discussion would be a good thing. Didn't realize you were just going be insulting and obtuse.
    Post something intelligent to discuss then.

    Try posting something that is true. Here are the things you've posted thus far that are not:

    LR issue cannot take 3d class if character has epic levels -- no, there is none, the previous LR issues have all been resolved; tested on 3 separate characters on Lamannia per Cordovan's request to prove the the issues OP raised no longer exist.

    LR issue character gets stuck on ship after changing classes -- no, did not happen; I'll go back and try again; I'll even change out classes to get a different 3; but, tested on 3 characters on Lamannia and this did not happen.

    Tempest Trapmonkey no longer viable -- waiting on you to show how or why.

    GM service is unacceptable -- I've been at the game for nearly as long as it has been out, GMs have never been an issue for me; inappropriate sense of entitlement leads to unrealistic expectations resulting in false sense of dissatisfaction.

    So far you've got nothing intelligent to discuss. Provide something and I'll discuss it with you.

  8. #68
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    To make it perfectly clear, since screenshots show everything, here are 3 pictures from using the LR20 heartwood. Note that I start out as a Wizard 16/Monk 2/Cleric 2. I end up as a Wizard 15/Paladin 3/Rogue 2.

    You'll note by the locations that I start in the dojo talking to Kruz, then am on the airship having made the changes, and finally am in the marketplace having left the ship.

    Not only did I completely swap out TWO character classes but I managed it with 3 classes to start with and ended up off the ship -- ie, not stuck on the ship after LR.

    There is absolutely nothing valid about the complaints being made.

    The only thing that cannot be done is to take a 4th class, even temporarily, in order to do major rework to the characters. Major rework will still require multiple LRs just as it does now.

    There is no problem. It all works just like it is supposed to work and just as Turbine tells you it will work.

    The only problem is with players who want more than what Turbine has offered them. The LR process works just as Turbine says it will.






  9. #69
    Community Member Kyshara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Well, I am not completely confused by your initial post and I'm not totally confused by your present post -- but, I do have some questions.

    First, you were Paladin 15/Ranger 3/Monk 2 and you wanted to become Fighter 12/Ranger 4/Monk4.

    Second, you started your LR with Paladin 2/Monk 2.

    Third, since you were not planning on any Paladin levels (you wanted to replace all of your Paladin with Fighter 12/Ranger 1/Monk 2), why on earth did you take the 2 Paladin levels? Did you forget what you were doing? Or, did you want something different from what you've posted?

    Now, I don't know the order in which you took your character classes. So, it could be that you are just completely out of luck no matter what. Your best solution is to LR3 to become Paladin 16/Monk4. Now wait and LR20 to Fighter 16/Monk 4. Finally, wait again and LR5 to Fighter 12/Ranger 4/Monk 4.

    It seems eminently unfair that you should have to do that. But, since you don't seem to know what it is you want in any case it hardly seems critical that we spend a great deal of time trying to help you find a better alternative.

    Bottom line is this, you cannot now and will likely never be able to select a 4th character class without multiple reincarnations to fix what you have to become what you want.

    Turbine's change to the enhancement system is going to impact some subset of players. I suspect it won't really be that many. I know that in my personal case I won't have any characters that absolutely need to LR. I'll likely use the LR in idle and wasteful ways readjusting stat points or changing my appearance -- but the number of characters made obsolete by the changes will be none for me.

    I feel for the situations like yours where 2 or 3 LRs will be needed to "fix" characters. This is why I suggested in my last post that Turbine consider making the heart woods BtA instead of BtC. At least you won't need to spend TP on heart woods if they do that -- unless, of course, every one of your characters is a problem build.

    Oh well, I'm sorry it was my fault haha. I tried to TR into Fighter 12/Paladin 4/Monk 4

    LOL

  10. #70
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    To make it perfectly clear, since screenshots show everything, here are 3 pictures from using the LR20 heartwood.
    Hmm. Willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, though this has not been my experience. So where are you getting the +20 LR token to test?

    update, current lamma won't let me buy even a +3 Lheart, +5 Lhearts are not even for sale at all, and no sign anywhere of any +20 token. Me thinks that either you're full of it, or praps you've just violated your mournlands agreement... either that or point me to how you +20 LR'd.
    Last edited by BOgre; 07-29-2013 at 10:27 PM.

  11. #71
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Why?

    Just because you screwed up your character when you made it, that is not Turbine's fault or any other person's fault. It was your decision to build the character the way it is.
    Umm.. they changed the game. Your position is that it's my own fault I couldn't see the future?

    They have decided to let everyone rebuild their character. They've given out LR +20 tokens. Those tokens will not work for people with 3 classes. If the devs want to give everyone the ability to redo their character, they need to fix that issue.

    Edit: I will go try the LR +20 token in a minute... It didn't use to work on live. I had to LR twice to remove a class and add a new one.
    Last edited by Thrudh; 07-29-2013 at 10:28 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  12. #72
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Umm.. they changed the game. Your position is that it's my own fault I couldn't see the future?

    They have decided to let everyone rebuild their character. They've given out LR +20 tokens. Those tokens will not work for people with 3 classes. If the devs want to give everyone the ability to redo their character, they need to fix that issue.
    Do you even bother reading any of the disclaimers that go with the game, at all, ever? Even as big a moron as I knows from the moment they start playing that the game will change and that the game experience is not guaranteed.

    Change happens. Some would even argue that change is necessary for a game like DDO to continue to remain viable. So, yes, to a large degree I am saying that it is your fault -- my fault, every player's fault -- that they choose to take builds that are great at the moment, because sooner or later the flavor of the moment is overcome by changes to the game.

    Go back through the history of DDO. There have been builds that were the "must have" builds at every turn. And, at every turn those builds were made obsolete by changes to the game.

    DDO does not owe it to you to let you totally resculpt your character just because it no longer is the top of the line, best of the best, flavor of the moment. That they are giving the opportunity to LR all 20 levels is an effort to mitigate most of the issues. But, if you already have 3 character classes then you'd better really like those classes or you'd better have taken them in an order that allows you to progressively overwrite them and then take new classes. Because what is not going to happen (unless Turbine changes the way the LR20 works) is letting you just throw away all your class choices and reselect.

    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    Hmm. Willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, though this has not been my experience. So where are you getting the +20 LR token to test?
    When you character copy onto Lamannia the heart shows in your inventory. It is not available to characters that you create on Lamannia and it is not available to buy from the store.

    One more thing about the heart, it comes with a clear warning regarding the 3 class limit:


  13. #73
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyshara View Post
    Oh well, I'm sorry it was my fault haha. I tried to TR into Fighter 12/Paladin 4/Monk 4

    LOL
    Then you can get there with two LRs. First LR3 to Paladin 16/Monk4. Next, LR20 to Fighter 12/Paladin 4/Monk 4.

    Not as nice as being able to do it all at once, but not as troublesome as having to go through 3 reincarnations.

    Now, IMO Turbine can mitigate player frustration if they cause the LR20 to become BtA instead of BtC. That way players can make changes to the characters that need them by shifting hearts over from characters that don't.

    OTOH, Turbine might completely surprise the player base by making the LR20 totally wipe any memory of previous classes and allow players to rechoose (up to the 3 class maximum) from scratch. That seems like development work and I don't know how feasible it is. Lots of things sound good but aren't really practical when it comes time to write the code for it.

    So, maybe the best thing is to let the hearts be BtA. Players will still complain (about having to do multiple reincarnates, waiting a week, etc.). Then again, if players didn't complain something would be wrong.

  14. #74
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Was able to buy a +3 Lheart to test. Made a 4ftr/2mnk/1pal. As suspected, attempting to change the 1st level of monk into any other class fails with the standard 4th class error message. Result is an in-process LRing character stuck on the ship. Only solution is to waste the heart, or buy multiple hearts.

    Still not finding any +20 heart or token to test.

  15. #75
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post

    One more thing about the heart, it comes with a clear warning regarding the 3 class limit:
    And you don't find that arbitrarily punitive? So someone who built a 2 class split, like a clonk for example, and can change both classes and rebuild from scratch. A 3 class split that has splashed only 1 level of a particular class can rebuild, providing he does it in the "right" order. But a 3 class split simply can NOT change any class in which he has splashed more than 1 level. Arbitrarily punitive. Your argument simply does NOT address this. By your reasoning, a 1 splash is fine, but a 2 splash is stupidity, game breaking, OP, our own fault, flavor of the month, and whatever other nonsense you're spouting.

    The plain truth is that Turb has admitted that a respec is in order, but as of today that respec only applies to certain characters. That's a fail. Either it works for all builds, or it doesn't. And since it clearly doesn't, there are going to be players who will not be helped by this gesture. Players who will receive defacto lesser quality customer service. Players who will feel cheated by the change. No, not entitled, cheated.

  16. #76
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    The plain truth is that Turb has admitted that a respec is in order, but as of today that respec only applies to certain characters. That's a fail. Either it works for all builds, or it doesn't. And since it clearly doesn't, there are going to be players who will not be helped by this gesture. Players who will receive defacto lesser quality customer service. Players who will feel cheated by the change. No, not entitled, cheated.
    This. It doesn't matter what Therigar thinks. Turbine is offering a full respec to only SOME characters... it should be all characters or none.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  17. #77
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    And you don't find that arbitrarily punitive?
    No, I don't. It is no more arbitrary than the present reincarnation system is. We've had the present reincarnation limits now for a very long time. There's been no hue and cry for a more forgiving system. There is no actual evidence that the present hue and cry has any justification.

    The current system lets a L5 or lower character completely revamp their character provided they have less than 3 character classes. It does not allow that if they do have 3 character classes. There is absolutely nothing different about how the LR20 is implemented to this standard -- which we all accept and deal with every day presently on live.

    But, I'll reiterate. There is absolutely no actual evidence of a real need to fully rebuild characters with complete class restructuring. Just because players cannot remake their 15 Paladin/3 Ranger/2 Monk into (now) 12 Fighter/4 Paladin/4 Monk -- that isn't enough justification to demand that we have that ability.

    Before I can be supportive of such a move I would need to know why the initial build is no longer viable. What is it that the initial build COULD do that it cannot do after the update.

    There was talk of Tempest Trapmonkey being made obsolete. I went to Lamannia and built the exact class break out as the "obsolete" build. Problem was that (if the bugs in the proposed enhancement system are fixed) the Tempest Trapmonkey actually gets BETTER and not worse with the enhancement change.

    So, the argument that players NEED to rebuild their characters is being shown to be false.

    The one, and the only one, case that I can see some justification to is the Monkcher. Honestly, I am not too upset by that. But, Arcane Archer is getting what I consider a huge nerf. Yet, discussions of the nerf on the Lamannia forums seem to show that most players are actually OK with the changes. So, I'm not even sympathetic to the impact on Monkchers.

    The situation is this -- if you happen to be able to benefit 100% then I'm happy for you. If you have to go through a bit of work to totally rebuild your character, that's how it is right now. Be glad that Turbine is thinking about giving us +20 hearts to help the process.

    But, before I give the whining and complaining any semblance of support I'll need some evidence that a character is actually rendered unplayable by the upcoming changes.

    Since (most) of those posting about this are on the Lamannia forums we should probably take the discussion there to avoid nondisclosure issues. If you want to argue it out I'll be glad to meet you over there to discuss it.

    But, without evidence that builds are being destroyed I can see no reason to support changing the standard that we've been dealing with now for years.

  18. #78
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    Was able to buy a +3 Lheart to test. Made a 4ftr/2mnk/1pal. As suspected, attempting to change the 1st level of monk into any other class fails with the standard 4th class error message. Result is an in-process LRing character stuck on the ship. Only solution is to waste the heart, or buy multiple hearts.
    Still not finding any +20 heart or token to test.
    Yes, I would expect that to fail honestly.

    The game DOES remember your later levels. You have to look at your character as X leveled character (X being what ever level you were at time of LR), not one that is choosing levels going up. LR wood explains that you can swap up to Y number of lvl choices BUT you still have to follow "the rules". This implies, maybe not clearly enough, that trying to redo as you go is not possible when you think through that.

    So when you tried to change out your first level of monk to lets say rogue.
    1. fighter
    2. fighter
    3. fighter
    4. fighter
    5. monk
    6. monk
    7. paladin

    The game considered you trying to do

    1. fighter
    2. fighter
    3. fighter
    4. fighter
    5. rogue <- ERROR 4th class choice.
    6. monk
    7. paladin


    Yes. You would have to go through with two hearts in order to wipe things out OR you have to have enough levels such to where you can choose your character class selections that you want later in "life" at the possible cost of skill point optimization.

    At least this is what it sounded like you were trying to do to me.
    I do consider this to be a failure of Turbine, but ONLY in the aspect that they have yet to ever make any video instructions. Seriously, in the current age of internet and gaming, video instructions of how to do things in game like this should be a requirement, or at the very minimum a good way to help out players learn the game for player retention.

    I believe that the original issue the OP had should have been resolved by now.
    Last edited by Missing_Minds; 07-30-2013 at 07:04 AM.

  19. #79
    Community Member Book_O_Dragons's Avatar
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    @BOgre The +20 heart is only given to copied characters. I believe that every existing character will receive 1 when the enhancement pass goes live and new characters will have no chance to ever use a +20 heart until the next time such a big update goes live and they give another out.
    I completely disagree with your assertion that these hearts should be made bta as a mater of right. I believe that would be more problematical than not giving any heart at all considering the bta spirit cakes from the 6th birthday cakes. Turbine is giving everyone a free +20 heart of wood out of the goodness of their hearts when they more easily could not provide a whole new item and rake more money in from store bought hearts which are limited to +5 only for special sales and more commonly +3.

    It would be nice to be able to quickly change a 3 class build to another 3 class build without any shared classes but if the functionality for it isn't already coded and 100% ready for live I do not believe that dev time should be spent making it. I would like the warning about classes taken later on being counted added to the text of the +20 heart of wood. I would also like to be able to find out when I took each class level. Fred has some ability to do this but not as an exact order sort of thing Fred tells you what level breakdown you had when you took the feat you are attempting to change but multiple toughness feats cause problems with him (still on lama) showing only the most recent 1 taken.
    The worst problem on the DDO forums right now

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  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    They have decided to let everyone rebuild their character. They've given out LR +20 tokens. Those tokens will not work for people with 3 classes. If the devs want to give everyone the ability to redo their character, they need to fix that issue.
    From a customer relationship standpoint fixing LR/GR to work the way most customers would expect (that is, let me change any N class/levels as long as my final composition is still only three classes total) is the right thing to do, regardless of N being 20, 5, 3, and so on. I'd certainly rate it as an important quality of life change but we can see how little actual priority has been given to "quality of life" since that infamous letter...

    It just doesn't seem to be the most likely thing that Turbine would do. I'm surprised they went as far as LR+20, quite happy about it but yes it isn't the opportunity to truly rebuild every character within the rules of the new system one might have expected, desired, or hoped for.

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