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  1. #21
    Community Member Rian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by V_mad_jester_V View Post
    12 wiz for self buffing/healing (wf) 7 rogue for sneak attack, 1 fighter for feat. No epic gear (currently level 24) and no sneak attack gear (so my dps has room to increase). If you think my build is trash then you think all arti builds are trash cuz ...
    First of all, you obviously don't know about an artificer.
    They can imbue their intellegence modifier into either attack or damage.
    They have Deadly Weapons (+1[W]).
    They have BLADE BARRIER and force enchancements to go with it.
    They have perma manyshot since they're using repeaters.
    They have endless fusilade.
    They have increased damage with Xbows.
    They have RUNEARMS
    They can bla bla bla I'm sure at this point I'm boring you with things you may have or not have known.

    Second with that statement you changed this thread. Now instead of saying shiradi champion sucks, it seems like you're saying it sucks because it doesn't work well with your build.
    Last edited by Rian; 08-28-2012 at 01:00 AM. Reason: misread
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  2. #22
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    The DPS problem there isn't with the crossbow but rather the rune arm. At level 20 about ~40% of an Artificers DPS comes from the rune arm, you're rubbish spells aren't going to keep up with that.
    Last edited by wax_on_wax_off; 08-28-2012 at 12:53 AM.
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  3. #23
    Community Member V_mad_jester_V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rian View Post
    First of all, you obviously don't know about an artificer.
    They can imbue their intellegence modifier into either attack or damage.
    They have Deadly Weapons (+1[W]).
    They have BLADE BARRIER and force enchancements to go with it.
    They have perma manyshot since they're using repeaters.
    They have endless fusilade.
    They have increased damage with Xbows.
    They can bla bla bla I'm sure at this point I'm boring you with things you didn't know (evidently).

    Second with that statement you changed this thread. Now instead of saying shiradi champion sucks, it seems like you're saying it sucks because it doesn't work well with your build.

    Did you take the mechanic PrE for rogue?
    yes i took mech rogue

    so that means i have int mod into my weapons
    yes i skip out on deadly
    yes i skip out on blade barrier
    and i use repeater xbows
    yes i kno they have one die step higher with battle engineer

    and i do know all artis i've talked to do the range of 60-70 dmg per bolt base. I have talked to many to make sure my build is going in the right direction, and so far i seem to be doing right.

    Blade barrier is alright but you gotta kite mobs through it. The spells i use are for stationary mobs and requires no kiting. So 0 kiting means 0 damage from blade barriers.

    also i feel like yo udidnt fulley read cuz i did awknowledge that their endless fusilade will give them a mometary boost to their dps over mine, how ever base dps i barely out rank mainly cuz my spells are for moving and stationary targets, while blade barrier requires kiting. More often then not most arti's i know dont cast blade barrier cuz others dont use it ergo its a waste of sp. They have flame turrent but when the mobs get moved then the flame turrent is useless, but i have fire wall which i can cast more of and move according to the mobs locations.

    Regardless if champion worked with my build or not, it still needs improvements.
    You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til ya understand who's in ruttin' command here.

  4. #24
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    To go back on Topic

    OP i think you dont realize that all the Shiradi Champion 7% damage procs are enhanced by spell power and spell crits.

    On my Archmage-Wizard with the full enhancement-force line the 2d100 Force damage from fey power was able to crit for 1400! damage

    Do you know how great that is? You cast magic missile and have 1400 damage btw that ?

    The sonic proc does also 200-300 dmaage and 700 damage crits

    Light Damage was somewhere btw 100-200 damage.

    +7% chance to paralyze enemys.

    I sometimes even thought that shiradi champion is a littlebit Overpowered compared to other destinies....

    Imagine i cast Meteor swarm+Force missile+Magic missile+Past life Magic missile which are about 30 chances to get something to proc.

    Have you actually tested the damage? Do you even use the right spell power enhancements to make use of shiradi champion? Do you have the right eqipment?

    Maybe your build just isnt right to make use of shiradi champion?

    One thing is for sure. Shiradi Champion is far from underpowered.
    Last edited by Dunklerlindwurm; 08-28-2012 at 01:31 AM.
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  5. #25
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    IKR, I tried this on my drow shuriken build, 5 arti 7 sorc 8 wizard in zombie form, and I still do bad damage...

  6. #26

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    The problem is that Shiradi ties together the most powerful damage style in the game (arcane casting) with the weakest (ranged combat). Any time you try and buff the damage for ranged side of things, you massively over-buff the casters, who really don't need it.

    I use Ottos Whistler and Pin - not for the effects which seldom work, but for the +1W. Why not?

  7. #27
    Community Member V_mad_jester_V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    The DPS problem there isn't with the crossbow but rather the rune arm. At level 20 about ~40% of an Artificers DPS comes from the rune arm, you're rubbish spells aren't going to keep up with that.
    so far i havent see a difference between my damage out put at level 24 compared to a pure arti's dps at level 24. I havent seen their rune arms make a major difference at all. Like i said aside from endless fusilade my dps seems to be up to par with their dps. I have confirmed it with guildies who have epic leveled artis, friends, and pug's. Im too a point on the server where people call me an arti rather than a wizard (cuz i can still buff others with scrolls available in house c..sorta stupid that i cant buff my own weapons >.>). Every elitest a hole who has tried to knock my build has shut their holes cuz i usually am the person saving the day. Did power play and i was the sole survivor of the optional that has those little spheres to form voltron, and took him down on my own in a decent amount of time. As i said before me, a healer, a tank, and a ranger made our last stand with harry in hard shroud run. (for use to have brought him down to 5% from 50% is pretty impressive, no one in the party thought we would last as long as we did). even people on the server who dislike me will at least respect the build i have put out,cuz of the fact that i can hold my own.

    but the point of this thread is not my build of my toon but the change i believe is needed for champion. The proc rate is too low for the three stances available, and i see that it really makes no major difference. Yeah when they proc they are mediocre to great (the ones that only prot for 20-60 damage is mediocre) and you can defend it all you want, but compared to the other trees, this seems to be the low end. Shadow dancer has insta kill abilities, same goes for lily pedal or what ever its called. Legendary has many available option to increase damage, speed, and chance to hit (when i used legendary to get to champion and used the damage boost i went from 50-60 to 70-80damage per bolt) while the damage boost was nice, thats all i used in the legendary tree. (thats actually going to be my twist of fate)

    again shadow dancer actually dosent have much to offer me except a one time increase to sneak attack damage, a like 2 or 3 abilities. Champion how ever, i used everything i get. Am i happy with it no do i think it needs a bit of an upgrade, i wouldnt be here if i didnt. like i said the champion tree either needs to allow all stance to be active simultaneously or change it to guaranteed dmg 100% of the time, not 7%. Even if that guaranteed damage came in the form of 1d10 or 2d10 i think that would be a step up from what it currently is. So that means every attack will have anywhere between 1 to 10 extra damage or 2 to 20 extra damage per attack.

    I dont see why any one would be against it. its all beneficial and it wouldnt be broke considering melees can potentially hit for much 2x more then any arti, ranger, or repeater built rogue. my guildie is now consistantly hitting 200 low to 270 high, 500+ crits. Barbarians i know can hit for 230 ish low to 300 high and have crits of 600-700 and occasionally the 1k crits. I know cuz im always asking, to make sure my builds are up to par with others on the server. If i feel my toon is gimped then i lesser tr, if he is still gimped after then i delete and reroll. Arcanes can hit harder then any arti, ranger, or repeater built rogue. Anyone using a bow or xbow is behind the rest of the classes in this game. I have played rangers that can do 150 per arrow, but many shots cool down blows chunks. I have yet ot play an arti cuz i havent unlocked one yet. But as i said i've talked to many of them and they say their typical damage from levels 20-25 is around 60-70 so not to much of a difference form my 50-60. Again that is without gear, tharnes goggles would up it to 55-65, and more gear are out there that will do this boost in damage for me. Also with legendary's attack boost it will raise my dps considerably. But i still think xbow users and bow users are still behind the curve and something needs to be done to catch them up a little more.

    YOu can argue that they do less damaged cuz they are ranged, but that dosent make a valid argument when you look at wizards and sorcs. Heck a divine can out dps a ranged user using divine punish, comet fall, and searing light in some cases. (note the key phrase here, "in some cases') and yes my guild healer can do 300+ dmg per tick with his divine punish. Which stacked up 3x times is brutal. You can call bs, but he has killed me in one tick while in undead form and two ticks while in living form using just his one spell.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by V_mad_jester_V View Post
    so far i havent see a difference between my damage out put at level 24 compared to a pure arti's dps at level 24. I havent seen their rune arms make a major difference at all. Like i said aside from endless fusilade my dps seems to be up to par with their dps. I have confirmed it with guildies who have epic leveled artis, friends, and pug's. Im too a point on the server where people call me an arti rather than a wizard (cuz i can still buff others with scrolls available in house c..sorta stupid that i cant buff my own weapons >.>). Every elitest a hole who has tried to knock my build has shut their holes cuz i usually am the person saving the day. Did power play and i was the sole survivor of the optional that has those little spheres to form voltron, and took him down on my own in a decent amount of time. As i said before me, a healer, a tank, and a ranger made our last stand with harry in hard shroud run. (for use to have brought him down to 5% from 50% is pretty impressive, no one in the party thought we would last as long as we did). even people on the server who dislike me will at least respect the build i have put out,cuz of the fact that i can hold my own.

    but the point of this thread is not my build of my toon but the change i believe is needed for champion. The proc rate is too low for the three stances available, and i see that it really makes no major difference. Yeah when they proc they are mediocre to great (the ones that only prot for 20-60 damage is mediocre) and you can defend it all you want, but compared to the other trees, this seems to be the low end. Shadow dancer has insta kill abilities, same goes for lily pedal or what ever its called. Legendary has many available option to increase damage, speed, and chance to hit (when i used legendary to get to champion and used the damage boost i went from 50-60 to 70-80damage per bolt) while the damage boost was nice, thats all i used in the legendary tree. (thats actually going to be my twist of fate)

    again shadow dancer actually dosent have much to offer me except a one time increase to sneak attack damage, a like 2 or 3 abilities. Champion how ever, i used everything i get. Am i happy with it no do i think it needs a bit of an upgrade, i wouldnt be here if i didnt. like i said the champion tree either needs to allow all stance to be active simultaneously or change it to guaranteed dmg 100% of the time, not 7%. Even if that guaranteed damage came in the form of 1d10 or 2d10 i think that would be a step up from what it currently is. So that means every attack will have anywhere between 1 to 10 extra damage or 2 to 20 extra damage per attack.

    I dont see why any one would be against it. its all beneficial and it wouldnt be broke considering melees can potentially hit for much 2x more then any arti, ranger, or repeater built rogue. my guildie is now consistantly hitting 200 low to 270 high, 500+ crits. Barbarians i know can hit for 230 ish low to 300 high and have crits of 600-700 and occasionally the 1k crits. I know cuz im always asking, to make sure my builds are up to par with others on the server. If i feel my toon is gimped then i lesser tr, if he is still gimped after then i delete and reroll. Arcanes can hit harder then any arti, ranger, or repeater built rogue. Anyone using a bow or xbow is behind the rest of the classes in this game. I have played rangers that can do 150 per arrow, but many shots cool down blows chunks. I have yet ot play an arti cuz i havent unlocked one yet. But as i said i've talked to many of them and they say their typical damage from levels 20-25 is around 60-70 so not to much of a difference form my 50-60. Again that is without gear, tharnes goggles would up it to 55-65, and more gear are out there that will do this boost in damage for me. Also with legendary's attack boost it will raise my dps considerably. But i still think xbow users and bow users are still behind the curve and something needs to be done to catch them up a little more.

    YOu can argue that they do less damaged cuz they are ranged, but that dosent make a valid argument when you look at wizards and sorcs. Heck a divine can out dps a ranged user using divine punish, comet fall, and searing light in some cases. (note the key phrase here, "in some cases') and yes my guild healer can do 300+ dmg per tick with his divine punish. Which stacked up 3x times is brutal. You can call bs, but he has killed me in one tick while in undead form and two ticks while in living form using just his one spell.
    Read my post above again.

    It looks to me you havent tested the damage at all or use the wrong equipment/enhancements
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  9. #29
    Community Member V_mad_jester_V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunklerlindwurm View Post
    To go back on Topic
    Imagine i cast Meteor swarm+Force missile+Magic missile+Past life Magic missile which are about 30 chances to get something to proc.
    my points are allocated in such a way that i dont have room to use those, its a ranged tree and your already proving my point even further that it should be looked into, not all builds have the room to have equipment to boost this. There are already PLENTY of ed's that boost a spell casters abilities and powers and are based on spell casters equipment and enhancements. this one should be based purely on the xbow/bow users ranged abilites, not their spell power

    Have you actually tested the damage? Do you even use the right spell power enhancements to make use of shiradi champion? Do you have the right eqipment?
    yes i will occasionally see a plus 5-20 every time the sonic damage procs. And no my equipment is in such a way that i cant really change anything out, cloak is the named one that decreases my threat generation. Im using the tinkers gloves for the dex and open lock, house c boots (i can probably switch around a bit), +6 int helm, currently no belt (so i can add one thing there) and **** bracers (another i can add) +6 con necklace, moderate fort with deathblock docent. magi helm with +15 diplo that i wear at all times (to shake alot of the aggro i get regardless of the fact that i have -40-50% threat generation) superior false life trinket. Again your proving a point to me that the champion tree needs some looking over. Cuz it shouldnt rely on spell power and spell crit, it should rely on just the dmg out put with bows/xbows. Im a hater of rangers, and im actually not just looking out for myself on this one, but for rangers. I think to make each stance do a fixed amount of damage is much better then a proc rate. The only abilites that should have a proc rate is like rain of arrows and anything that dose 1d100 or 10d10 damage. But if its only doing 1d10, 2d10, 1d20, 2d20, 3d20 then it should be lowered to do slightly less damage but proc 100% of the time. it would be nice having to use a different xbow that dosent have pure good on it, while doing good/light damage using stay good, or use my pure good bow and fight a fire ele while being in stay frosty stance.

    Maybe your build just isnt right to make use of shiradi champion?
    as i said before its the only ed viable for my build. Cuz i have low spell power in all schools and elements i stay away from magister, draconic, and what ever the name of the last caster based tree is called. I dont use legendary or any from that circle cuz none of them really have anything that'll benefit me much. none of the divine trees have benefits for me either. Alot of those trees tend to swing one of two ways, melee power and casters power, even the champion tree sways towards caster as you have pointed out to me. Caster gear which i would be happy to find as long as it conforms to my needs (so far proven to be easier said than done)

    as i said your statements have proven to me thus far this tree needs a nice look at cuz i dont think all arti's, rangers, ect who wanna use this tree wanna point enhancement points they dont have into spell crit and spell power, and then change around their gear to use this tree either. You may want to, but there are many that dont, and once more as the broken record i am, there are plenty of caster trees and plenty of melee trees.


    *edit* i prematurely hit enter

    anyways someone mentioned to go shadow dancer

    some abilites require me to be up front and personal with the enemy, but fat chance, the point of my build is to be away from the enemy. One ability is a kill aura of some sort, one ability is incorporeal (12 levels of necro wiz covers that) one allows me to sneak faster (whoop de doo) some gives me higher dex/int (its nice and if i went to this tree this is where almost all my points are going is for higher int but not even worth it for +3 to my dmg) one gives me higher sneak damage (i would take this one ability). one gives me higher disable (i have 72 disable now, and with tor bracers i can have 80 disable, 82 with head of good fortune, 86 with rogue skill boost) so i dont need that outta that tree.
    Last edited by V_mad_jester_V; 08-28-2012 at 01:54 AM.
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  10. #30
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    So you want to use a specific ED..but dont want to use a build or equipment that works well with this ED?

    And then you complain that the ED sucks? And want it changed?


    That is like i build a pure sorcerer with 10 Strenght and use the Fury of the Wild ED and complain that it sucks because i do low damage or dont hit at all.
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  11. #31
    Community Member V_mad_jester_V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunklerlindwurm View Post
    So you want to use a specific ED..but dont want to use a build or equipment that works well with this ED?

    And then you complain that the ED sucks? And want it changed?


    That is like i build a pure sorcerer with 10 Strenght and use the Fury of the Wild ED and complain that it sucks because i do low damage or dont hit at all.
    bad example imo, cuz all my remanding equipment is going to be used to up the damage of my xbow, not up my ed. I shouldnt need equipment to up the champion ed. I shouldnt need to use stuff to up my des that can benefit a rogue mechanic, non tempest ranger, or bow fighter (only seen two of these). Like i said there are trees that swing for arcanes/divines, and there are trees that swing for melees. Then theres the bard tree.
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  12. #32
    Community Member V_mad_jester_V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by V_mad_jester_V View Post
    bad example imo, cuz all my remanding equipment is going to be used to up the damage of my xbow, not up my ed. I shouldnt need equipment to up the champion ed. I shouldnt need to use stuff to up my des that can benefit a rogue mechanic, non tempest ranger, or bow fighter (only seen two of these). Like i said there are trees that swing for arcanes/divines, and there are trees that swing for melees. Then theres the bard tree.
    ps while yes i know the champion tree says ranged,thrown, or spells, i think they need to do away with the spell part period. There are already plenty of trees that druids can go to and arcane archers can go to, but it seems to me to be specialized for rangers, artis, and mech repeater rogues. I think if they changed this tree up more mech rogues and artis would use this rather than shadow dancer. Theres already a tree for clrs and fvs, a paladine tree, a fighter tree, a bard tree, a rogue tree, a barbarian tree, but this tree as your making it seems requires more caster esp equipment then anything else. This tree needs to a fit for ranged based rangers, rogues, and arties. (i've seen tons o melee arties). It should not tie into spell power and spell crit chance, and even if i did change my equipement it wouldnt do much due to my enhancements which cant change either. What about rogue mechs who dont get all those enhancements to increase spell power and crits? but they are repeater built and they would probably benefit better from this ranged tree rather than a melee tree (ive read through shadow dancer and it definitely seems a better fit for melees then ranged all for the same reasons why i didnt go that tree. some of the abilites are biotch out tactics, a ranged rogue dosent need to hide/sneak, they are in the back of the party anyways, and they dont need anything to allow them to get away from combat cuz those ranged toons should be attack already aggrod mobs, not being the aggressor, thats why theres the threat generation decrease and sneak attack bonus. you cant sneak something that is looking at you if you dont have bluff.
    You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til ya understand who's in ruttin' command here.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by V_mad_jester_V View Post
    bad example imo, cuz all my remanding equipment is going to be used to up the damage of my xbow, not up my ed. I shouldnt need equipment to up the champion ed. I shouldnt need to use stuff to up my des that can benefit a rogue mechanic, non tempest ranger, or bow fighter (only seen two of these). Like i said there are trees that swing for arcanes/divines, and there are trees that swing for melees. Then theres the bard tree.
    Well i agree with you in this point.

    Looking at a pure Ranged charakter...the choice of ED is very limited with only Shiradi Champion or Shadow Dancer which both need very specific builds to work great.

    If i played lets say..a pure Ranger with Longbow..i couldt make the same use out of Shiradi champion because a pure Ranger doesnt have the ability to increase Spell damage with enhancements.

    But your build has wizard levels! You could change your enhancements to increase the damage of Shiradi procs greatly.
    For example if you take the force line instead of the fire line you could use Ice Storm instead of Firewall because the Force line enhances Ice Storm too.
    Using an item with universel spell power instead of single element items would increase all the shiradi damage procs.


    The Problem is.
    If they changed the shiradi abilitys to a much greater proc rate it would become overpowered for anyone who uses spell power enhancements.
    So what would you do?
    Change shiradi champion so that it doesnt get enhanced by spell power anymore? Then its not interesting for spell casters at all (For example druid who has this ED as first choice)
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  14. #34
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Rune Arms contribute 250 to 350 damage per second, I don't see anything in your build making that up. Furthermore, with Shiradi, every rune arm projectile (5/shot for lucid) has a chance to proc all that awesome Shiradi stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunklerlindwurm View Post
    Well i agree with you in this point.

    The Problem is.
    If they changed the shiradi abilitys to a much greater proc rate it would become overpowered for anyone who uses spell power enhancements.
    So what would you do?
    Change shiradi champion so that it doesnt get enhanced by spell power anymore? Then its not interesting for spell casters at all (For example druid who has this ED as first choice)
    Like i said make that ed have fixed damage so it'll be like an arti weapon buff but for any weapon you hold. It shouldnt be interesting for casters cuz they have an entire circle to them selves. Melee druids wont use the champion tree they will most likley head over to he legendary dreadnaught, pedals, or shadow trees. Caster druids would probably better of in draconic or magister.
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  16. #36
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    both Otto's Whistler and Pin do not have a save component associated with it
    and they're by far the best abilities given to ranged builds... like ever

    they do have a condition saftisfaction to work
    Otton only makes monster dance if they're hit while moving
    Pin only makes monsters helpless if they're hit while NOT moving
    PS: Greensteel RUINED the game! and you all know it!
    less buffing, more nerfing!!!
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  17. #37
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by V_mad_jester_V View Post
    Like i said make that ed have fixed damage so it'll be like an arti weapon buff but for any weapon you hold. It shouldnt be interesting for casters cuz they have an entire circle to them selves. Melee druids wont use the champion tree they will most likley head over to he legendary dreadnaught, pedals, or shadow trees. Caster druids would probably better of in draconic or magister.
    Druids have 2 choices to start off in their sphere, shiradri and fury. Melee druids would likely go fury. Caster druids get shiradri. This is the natural sphere. They should not have to go to another sphere just to find something they can use. Nothing in your build is from the natural sphere. It should not change to better suit a build that has nothing to do with it's area of expertise. And FYI rangers are casters, they even have a very shiny new spell to kite things in. I've been using spiked growth to great effect and can not wait to see it procing shiradri abilities.
    Last edited by Havok.cry; 08-28-2012 at 02:48 AM.
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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by V_mad_jester_V View Post
    Like i said make that ed have fixed damage so it'll be like an arti weapon buff but for any weapon you hold. It shouldnt be interesting for casters cuz they have an entire circle to them selves. Melee druids wont use the champion tree they will most likley head over to he legendary dreadnaught, pedals, or shadow trees. Caster druids would probably better of in draconic or magister.
    But druids cant choose Magister or Draconic as their first choice. Not even second or third choice.

    And the idea of the Epic destinies was not to be for only one or two classes only. The Idea was that each ED appeals to alot of different classes and playstyles.

    At least thats what i think was the idea from what i read in the beta and before that.
    Wayfinder: Drache-V26, Taragon-V4 Quarterstaff-Bot, Iridal-Cleric, Xar-Level 4 Mule


  19. #39
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Here is a question for you OP: Have you considered fury of the wild? Adrenaline and several other abilities work on ranged attacks. Endless fury or whatever its called might be just your thing. Add in sense weakness, tunnel vision and others and you might be happy with it.

    Edit: You also mentioned being a tank, so: have you considered unyielding sentinel? Depending on your alignment you could add in quite a few damage abilities onto your weapons with it.
    Last edited by Havok.cry; 08-28-2012 at 02:53 AM.
    Matt Walsh:
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  20. #40
    Community Member V_mad_jester_V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok.cry View Post
    Here is a question for you OP: Have you considered fury of the wild? Adrenaline and several other abilities work on ranged attacks. Endless fury or whatever its called might be just your thing. Add in sense weakness, tunnel vision and others and you might be happy with it.

    Edit: You also mentioned being a tank, so: have you considered unyielding sentinel? Depending on your alignment you could add in quite a few damage abilities onto your weapons with it.
    i actually just read through fury of the wild and the adrenaline would be the absolute only thing i would use in that, and its not a tank build, i have a tank but not the one i have as a champion.
    You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til ya understand who's in ruttin' command here.

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