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  1. #1
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    Default Epic Zombie Dreadnought

    I've had a lot of fun building and rebuilding my Pale Master Monk through many of the updates that we've had to this game. My original build was an 18 Wizard/2 Monk Warforged Lich Monk that used a Docent of Defiance and temporary hit point procs to stay alive.

    After lots of waiting, the new necromancy spells arrived and I finally had reliable self-healing. My build was very limited because of attack bonus problems, and I was plagued by wanting to use power attack but not wanting to be chained to Divine Power items or Tenser's Transformation. The concept seemed strong, but it had a few specific failings that I simply couldn't reconcile. I considered changing to more levels of Monk, but at this point in the game Lich Form was moved to level 18 from level 12 and I felt obligated to stay with 18 levels of Wizard.

    I decided to TR into a Halfling and make use of Cunning/Guile enhancements to gain a large situational increase to damage and attack. By using a Radiance Guard item and a Stunning +10 item, I was able to stun most epic trash or sneak attack blind mobs, shoring up many of my hitting problems and still leaving me with a fair amount of casting power. At this stage I was still using an 18 Wizard/2 Monk build. When I finished my itemization, I was able to solo a lot of epic content and I even made a video of myself farming Epic VoN1 for Sword of Shadow Scrolls to show off my build concept (link below). At this point, the level cap was still 20 and I was anxiously awaiting the new Epic Content.

    With the new Epic Destinies around the corner, I had a lot of new ideas to consider. To be a viable caster, I would have to go with one of the epic caster destinies to get spell casting increases and I wasn't sure I wanted to go with Magister or Draconic Incarnation to remain spell viable.

    Ultimately, I decided to go with Zombie Form instead of Lich Form, despite the cautioning of many many individuals on the forums who advised me that it was mostly unplayable because of the speed penalty to melee attacks. I was told that making a Zombie character could never really be optimal, I would have to do it just for the flavor and suffer through its drawbacks.

    Despite this, I designed a 12 Monk/8 Wizard progression and set to work on multiple build revisions until I felt I had eked out every possible bit of utility to make the character viable.

    Here's a video I just made of the same Epic VoN1 Scroll Run (Epic Hard) with the new character build for your consideration:

    Old (Pre MotU) Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_ex4d5nLyE
    Current MotU Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-xrcQDWAXU (Master's Blitz at 2:25)

    Be sure to watch in HD (Normal Resolution is AWFUL).

    I'll post my build and itemization here for your feedback and comments.

    Scarabis the Chosen of Vol
    Level 20 Lawful Neutral Halfling Male
    (12 Monk / 8 Wizard)

    Starting
    Abilities Base Stats
    (36 Point) (Level 1)
    Strength 16
    Dexterity 14
    Constitution 16
    Intelligence 8
    Wisdom 14
    Charisma 8

    Tomes Used
    +1 Supreme Tome used at level 3
    +2 Supreme Tome used at level 7
    +3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11

    Level 1 (Monk)
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Wizard
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Wizard
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Stunning Fist
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    Level 2 (Wizard)
    Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell
    Level 3 (Wizard)
    Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Necromancy
    Level 4 (Monk)
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting
    Level 5 (Wizard)
    Level 6 (Wizard)
    Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell
    Level 7 (Wizard)
    Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Maximize Spell
    Level 8 (Wizard)
    Level 9 (Wizard)
    Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
    Level 10 (Wizard)
    Level 11 (Monk)
    Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness
    Level 12 (Monk)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    Level 13 (Monk)
    Level 14 (Monk)
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge
    Level 15 (Monk)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
    Level 16 (Monk)
    Level 17 (Monk)
    Level 18 (Monk)
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
    Level 19 (Monk)
    Level 20 (Monk)
    Level 21 (Epic)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Martial Arts
    Level 22 (Epic)
    Level 23 (Epic)
    Level 24 (Epic)
    Feat: (Selected) Cleave
    Level 25 (Epic)

    Legendary Dreadnought:
    Strength 1+2
    Legendary Tactics 3/3
    Extra Action Boost 3/3
    Action Boost: Haste 3/3
    Critical Damage 3/3
    Devastating Critical 1/1
    Advancing Blows 1/1
    Master's Blitz 1/1

    Twists:
    Sense Weakness 3/3 (Fury of the Wild)
    Unstoppable Fury 3/3 (Fury of the Wild)
    A Dance of Flowers 3/3 (Grandmaster of Flowers)

    Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity I
    Enhancement: Halfling Cunning I
    Enhancement: Halfling Cunning II
    Enhancement: Halfling Cunning III
    Enhancement: Halfling Cunning IV
    Enhancement: Halfling Guile I
    Enhancement: Halfling Guile II
    Enhancement: Halfling Guile III
    Enhancement: Halfling Guile IV
    Enhancement: Wizard Improved Empowering I
    Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing I
    Enhancement: Static Charge
    Enhancement: Way of the Faithful Hound I
    Enhancement: Way of the Faithful Hound II
    Enhancement: Way of the Faithful Hound III
    Enhancement: Touch of Death
    Enhancement: Porous Soul
    Enhancement: All-Consuming Flame
    Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy I
    Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy II
    Enhancement: Winter's Touch
    Enhancement: Adept of Rock
    Enhancement: Master of Stone
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Improved Jump I
    Enhancement: Improved Jump II
    Enhancement: Improved Tumble I
    Enhancement: Improved Tumble II
    Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I
    Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I
    Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II
    Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I
    Enhancement: Monk Wisdom II
    Enhancement: Wizard Pale Master I
    Enhancement: Shroud of the Zombie

    Minos Legens - +20hp, Heavy Fortification
    Greensteel Goggles - +45hp, Concordant Opposition, +6 Wisdom
    Epic Torc of Prince Raiyum-de II - Greater Spell Penetration VIII, Wizardry VI, Transform Kinetic Energy, Exceptional Constitution +1
    Epic Robe of Shadow - Superior Nullification IX, Superior Void Lore, Superior False Life, Greater Necromancy Focus, Boon of Undeath
    Epic Cloak of Night - Invisibility Guard, Ghostly, Deathblock, Nightmare Guard, DR 5/Good
    Epic Bracers of the Demon Consort - Demonic Curse, Demonic Shield, Demonic Retribution, Intimidate +15, Exceptional Wisdom +1, Resistance +4
    Epic Brawling Gloves - 20 Unarmed Proc, +4/+6 Sneak Attack Bonus, Strength +7, Dexterity +6
    Greensteel Boots - Minor Fire Guard, +50sp +2 Cha Skills, +100sp +3 Int Skills, Radiance Guard
    Epic Spare Hand - +5 Exceptional Combat Mastery, 3% Doublestrike, +2 Good Luck, +1 Exceptional Dexterity +1
    Sanura's Band - Intelligence +6, Exceptional Intelligence +1, Pale Master Set Bonus, Holy Burst
    Epic Ring of the Stalker - Exceptional Sneak Attack +3, Seeker +6, Manslayer, Ghostly, Constitution +6, Exceptional Strength +1

    Handwraps +7 Byeshk Alchemical Handwraps - Shocking Burst, Stunning +10, Alchemical Dexterity +2, Lightning Strike, Doublestrike 6%, Electric Storm
    Stunning Fist DC: 55

    I'd love your feedback or comments.

    ( EDIT: Added an Epic Elite video per thread request: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TniBDrcHUP8 )
    Last edited by AnsharDarkangel; 08-25-2012 at 08:47 PM. Reason: Addendum

  2. #2
    Community Member TasMagar's Avatar
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    Impressive ! Thank you for sharing this . I watched both videos and i must say that i liked the melee zombie
    Ghallanda - Legends of Ancient Greece

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  3. #3
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    lol funniest farm video I ve seen so far!
    Camp Naughty Bad Fun
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    Thanks for the feedback.

    If there's interest, I can also post an Epic Elite version of the same quest for comparison. It's not suitable for scroll farming, since it's slower, but the build is still quite hardy on that difficulty as well.

  5. #5
    Community Member Ziindarax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnsharDarkangel View Post
    Thanks for the feedback.

    If there's interest, I can also post an Epic Elite version of the same quest for comparison. It's not suitable for scroll farming, since it's slower, but the build is still quite hardy on that difficulty as well.
    I am interested, please share.
    Ziind Stargazer - Level 12 fighter/6 Barbarian/2 rogue Half-Orc (Neutral Good) - Formerly a level 20 Paladin Human - Orien

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziindarax View Post
    I am interested, please share.
    As you wish, sir.

    Enjoy

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TniBDrcHUP8

  7. #7
    Community Member Ziindarax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnsharDarkangel View Post
    I must say, that seems rather remarkable. What's your stats on the build when it is fully buffed out?

    HP/SP? Dodge?
    Ziind Stargazer - Level 12 fighter/6 Barbarian/2 rogue Half-Orc (Neutral Good) - Formerly a level 20 Paladin Human - Orien

    Fernian Summer Carnival

  8. #8
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Ive been considering a similar concept but 12 wizard (wraith form)/7 rogue/1 monk, halfling. The extra 4d6+9 sneak attack/hit would seem to add more than what monk gives for purposes of trash destruction. With 12 wizard levels and mental toughness the option is opened up to take epic mental toughness for using offensive no save spells to supplement DPS (acid rain/ice storm or EES/NBC depending on situation).

    Also thinking Shadowdancer. What prompted you to LD rather than SD or GMoF?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziindarax View Post
    I must say, that seems rather remarkable. What's your stats on the build when it is fully buffed out? HP/SP? Dodge?
    In final gear with full ship/personal buffs (in Earth Stance and Zombie Form):

    STR 42
    DEX 30
    CON 40
    INT 22
    WIS 30
    CHA 12

    800 HP
    760 SP

    68 AC
    14% Dodge
    50% Displacement
    25% Incorporeality (Ninja Spy)

    I went with Dreadnought because it enhances melee DPS considerably more than Shadowdancer does, and my Wisdom isn't really high enough to enjoy many of the benefits of GMoH. Combat Brute with a Sense Weakness Twist really tears things up, as well.

  10. #10
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnsharDarkangel View Post
    In final gear with full ship/personal buffs (in Earth Stance and Zombie Form):

    STR 42
    DEX 30
    CON 40
    INT 22
    WIS 30
    CHA 12

    800 HP
    760 SP

    68 AC
    14% Dodge
    50% Displacement
    25% Incorporeality (Ninja Spy)

    I went with Dreadnought because it enhances melee DPS considerably more than Shadowdancer does, and my Wisdom isn't really high enough to enjoy many of the benefits of GMoH. Combat Brute with a Sense Weakness Twist really tears things up, as well.
    Defenses look in order but still question the offensive abilities of the build. SP seems quite low too for maintaining multiple 1 round/level spells.
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  11. #11
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    The Torc and Conc Opp item, along with the fact that I am in melee constantly, usually give me more SP than I could ever need. The only time I run out of SP is if I'm forced to nuke heal myself 4-5 times in an encounter. I almost NEVER run out of SP, certainly not before I've hit at least one shrine.

  12. #12
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    On the question of LD vs SD I can see that LD is good vs helpless does that you can stun but vs red names and raid bosses I'd think that SD would be more DPS for the +6d6 SA damage and, to a lesser extent, the epic moment.

    That said, with -20% attack speed, maybe LD is better but that isn't a positive observation. How is zombie preferable to wraith form? How is 8-12 monk preferable to 7 rogue? How is 7-12 of anything better than 12 wizard?

    On another note, tensers has been updated to not prevent casting and give +4 alchemical strength among other things making 11-12 wizard even more desirable.
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  13. #13
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Adding to tracked threads, because this discussion/build is amusing.

    Do continue.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

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    Zombie is preferable to Wraith form for 4 reasons.

    One, Zombie allows for Tier 3 Earth Stance, giving an additional +1 multiplier to Dreadnought's +1.

    Two, Zombie allows for more Monk levels, which grants Touch of Death, additional unarmed die steps (which stack with the increased unarmed dice from Zombie form), and access to Improved Martial Arts.

    Three, going with 12 Monk allows for 2nd Tier Ninja Spy, granting additional sneak attack dice and making dual wielding Celestia a possibility for later.

    Four, the 25% incorporeality from Ninja Spy does not stack with Wraith Form, making one of the primary reasons to go with Wraith Form redundant.



    With 12 Levels of Monk I also have no issues dropping out of Zombie Form when fighting mobs I don't need the extra survivability for (or in a group where my extra survivability from Zombie Form is negligible compared to being healable by mass effects). In these circumstances I have Displacement, my own Haste, and a scroll-cast Tenser's Transformation to shore up any deficiencies I have from multiclassing.

    I in no way believe being a Zombie Monk is "optimal". My aim with the build was to try making a zombie monk build that can keep up with the vast majority of characters and be useful to a party, allowing me to try something a little different but still effective. I often live when other party members or my entire party die.

    Thanks for the questions!
    Last edited by AnsharDarkangel; 08-26-2012 at 12:19 AM. Reason: Punctuation. Formatting.

  15. #15
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnsharDarkangel View Post
    Zombie is preferable to Wraith form for 4 reasons.

    One, Zombie allows for Tier 3 Earth Stance, giving an additional +1 multiplier to Dreadnought's +1.

    Two, Zombie allows for more Monk levels, which grants Touch of Death, additional unarmed die steps (which stack with the increased unarmed dice from Zombie form), and access to Improved Martial Arts.

    Three, going with 12 Monk allows for 2nd Tier Ninja Spy, granting additional sneak attack dice and making dual wielding Celestia a possibility for later.

    Four, the 25% incorporeality from Ninja Spy does not stack with Wraith Form, making one of the primary reasons to go with Wraith Form redundant.



    With 12 Levels of Monk I also have no issues dropping out of Zombie Form when fighting mobs I don't need the extra survivability for (or in a group where my extra survivability from Zombie Form is negligible compared to being healable by mass effects). In these circumstances I have Displacement, my own Haste, and a scroll-cast Tenser's Transformation to shore up any deficiencies I have from multiclassing.

    I in no way believe being a Zombie Monk is "optimal". My aim with the build was to try making a zombie monk build that can keep up with the vast majority of characters and be useful to a party, allowing me to try something a little different but still effective. I often live when other party members or my entire party die.

    Thanks for the questions!
    1. Considering DPS you're getting ~+9% first number DPS but -20% overall DPS; doesn't seem to add up.
    2. Pretty sure in terms of DPS that 7 rogue (4d6+9 SA and maybe a free twist) is more damage than what 12 monk offers.
    3. With Antipode there's no need for Celestia
    4. Look at it the other way, with wraith form there's no reason to beyond 1 monk opening up the 7 rogue option.

    I'd really love to do a life as something like this just to try it. Currently I'm stuck between 12 wizard/7 rogue/1 monk or 18 wizard/1 rogue/1 monk, either with Shadowdancer as a halfling hoping to take Assassin III when the enhancement pass goes through.

    75% on TT scrolls isn't enough, if you swap to use it and then fail every time you swap to and fro when the cooldowns expires you're losing big chunks of DPS.

    Have you considered doing some DPS calcs for the character? I've got some in another thread that might help but not sure how to apply the -20% from zombie form. Not sure how to quantify the LD stuff either.
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    I've found the build very fun and rewarding to play. I often get lots of questions from those I group with. I'm not sure if a rogue gish build would be more effective or not, but at its heart this build was about creating a Zombie Monk. Build idiosyncrasies and my reasoning aside, it simply wouldn't be a Zombie Monk build without the Monk levels.

    If the build inspires you to try something different, by all means send me a message and let me know how it works out. That's the fun of trying something new.

  17. #17
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    I think any unarmed undead form character is going to be flavour right from the get go. Anyway, below is some idle moments while I've been on the couch watching the football as I can't play DDO at the moment so bear with me.

    Your characters damage afaics:
    (2 zombie+0.5 improved power attack+1 LD+1 bykesh+1 improved martial arts+1.5 dof[1d6]+16 strength+5 power attack+7 enhancement+2 ship buff+6 advancing blows)*(17 hits+2 crits for x4 damage)+(8 halfling SA+6 item SA+5 exc SA+d4 brawling+2d6 holy ring+d6 shocking)+(6 seeker+6 crit dam)*4*2+(17.5 holy burst+16.5 shocking burst)*2+(9.15 lightning strike+5 manslayer+3.5*15/20 electric storm)

    (7(3.5)+5+16+7+2+6)*(17+2*4)/20+(8+6+5+2.5+7+3.5)*19/20+((6+6)*4*2+(17.5+16.5)*2)/20+9.15+5+3.5*15/20

    (7(3.5)+36)*25/20+32*19/20+(96+68)/20+9.15+5+3.5*15/20=131/hit

    Attack speed:
    normal: 93.23 * (1+ 1.2939 * (.15-.2))=87.2
    Haste boost:*93.23 * (1+ 1.2939 * (.15+.3-.2))=123.4

    Normal: 131*87.2*1.86/60=354 DPS
    Haste boost:131*123.4*1.86/60=501 DPS

    So ... 160 seconds of moderate DPS and the rest of the time with 350 you're approaching half of what a full melee build is putting out.

    This is assuming that advancing blows is at max stack (unlikely) and 0 saves vs electric storm (impossible).

    I'm sure masters blitz is good but a good epic moment a viable character does not make. Apparently the +50% vs helpless from LD isn't working if haste boost is active.

    I'd prefer a full time undead form character rather than a part time zombie form character.

    If you put the same gear on a 12 wizard/7 rogue/1 monk/5 shadowdancer you end up with:

    1 bykesh+1 improved martial arts+1.5 dof[1d6]+15 strength+5 power attack+7 enhancement+2 ship buff)*(17 hits+2 crits for x2 damage)+(+23 rogue+21 SD+8 halfling SA+6 item SA+5 exc SA+d4 brawling+2d6 holy ring+d6 shocking)+(6 seeker)*2*2+(10.5 holy burst+5.5 shocking burst)*2+(9.15 lightning strike+5 manslayer+3.5*15/20 electric storm)

    (3.5(3.5)+29)*21/20+76*19/20+(6*2+10.5+5.5)*2/20+9.15+5+3.5*15/20=135.01

    135.01*111.3*1.89/60=473.34
    135.01*141.5*1.89/60=601.77

    So that's 100 damage/second that the build with more casting levels, more SP, more spells etc has ... Feats are a wash so no advantage there. HP/saves favours monk levels but there are approaches to that (epic toughness possibly).

    Finally, I'd be looking at Precision as a feat. With 19 SA hit Preision will give +19*0.25 SA/hit vs applicable targets as a starting point and it just gets better from there considering you probably don't hit on a 2 more often than most builds and you've got a good crit profile so gain advantage there.*
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    Community Member scottmike0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    I think any unarmed undead form character is going to be flavour right from the get go. Anyway, below is some idle moments while I've been on the couch watching the football as I can't play DDO at the moment so bear with me.

    Your characters damage afaics:
    (2 zombie+0.5 improved power attack+1 LD+1 bykesh+1 improved martial arts+1.5 dof[1d6]+16 strength+5 power attack+7 enhancement+2 ship buff+6 advancing blows)*(17 hits+2 crits for x4 damage)+(8 halfling SA+6 item SA+5 exc SA+d4 brawling+2d6 holy ring+d6 shocking)+(6 seeker+6 crit dam)*4*2+(17.5 holy burst+16.5 shocking burst)*2+(9.15 lightning strike+5 manslayer+3.5*15/20 electric storm)

    (7(3.5)+5+16+7+2+6)*(17+2*4)/20+(8+6+5+2.5+7+3.5)*19/20+((6+6)*4*2+(17.5+16.5)*2)/20+9.15+5+3.5*15/20

    (7(3.5)+36)*25/20+32*19/20+(96+68)/20+9.15+5+3.5*15/20=131/hit

    Attack speed:
    normal: 93.23 * (1+ 1.2939 * (.15-.2))=87.2
    Haste boost:*93.23 * (1+ 1.2939 * (.15+.3-.2))=123.4

    Normal: 131*87.2*1.86/60=354 DPS
    Haste boost:131*123.4*1.86/60=501 DPS

    So ... 160 seconds of moderate DPS and the rest of the time with 350 you're approaching half of what a full melee build is putting out.

    This is assuming that advancing blows is at max stack (unlikely) and 0 saves vs electric storm (impossible).

    I'm sure masters blitz is good but a good epic moment a viable character does not make. Apparently the +50% vs helpless from LD isn't working if haste boost is active.

    I'd prefer a full time undead form character rather than a part time zombie form character.

    If you put the same gear on a 12 wizard/7 rogue/1 monk/5 shadowdancer you end up with:

    1 bykesh+1 improved martial arts+1.5 dof[1d6]+15 strength+5 power attack+7 enhancement+2 ship buff)*(17 hits+2 crits for x2 damage)+(+23 rogue+21 SD+8 halfling SA+6 item SA+5 exc SA+d4 brawling+2d6 holy ring+d6 shocking)+(6 seeker)*2*2+(10.5 holy burst+5.5 shocking burst)*2+(9.15 lightning strike+5 manslayer+3.5*15/20 electric storm)

    (3.5(3.5)+29)*21/20+76*19/20+(6*2+10.5+5.5)*2/20+9.15+5+3.5*15/20=135.01

    135.01*111.3*1.89/60=473.34
    135.01*141.5*1.89/60=601.77

    So that's 100 damage/second that the build with more casting levels, more SP, more spells etc has ... Feats are a wash so no advantage there. HP/saves favours monk levels but there are approaches to that (epic toughness possibly).

    Finally, I'd be looking at Precision as a feat. With 19 SA hit Preision will give +19*0.25 SA/hit vs applicable targets as a starting point and it just gets better from there considering you probably don't hit on a 2 more often than most builds and you've got a good crit profile so gain advantage there.*
    one thing you missed was the hidden stat damage when fighting as a zombie

    -6 int or 6 cha depending on which proc's first, i realize that when i was playing my palemaster monk yesterday in zombie form that i was doing the stat damage.... because it was not wraps nor gear making the stat damage occur

  19. #19
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottmike0 View Post
    one thing you missed was the hidden stat damage when fighting as a zombie

    -6 int or 6 cha depending on which proc's first, i realize that when i was playing my palemaster monk yesterday in zombie form that i was doing the stat damage.... because it was not wraps nor gear making the stat damage occur
    Nor did I mention the con damage on crits from wraith form which gives HP penalty, fortitude save penalty (for landing SF), can be teamed with virulent poison and is more often targeted by other players (for team reductions to get helpless status).
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    Nor did I mention the con damage on crits from wraith form which gives HP penalty, fortitude save penalty (for landing SF), can be teamed with virulent poison and is more often targeted by other players (for team reductions to get helpless status).
    but i was focused at the first post less of the second build you gave :3

    but still -6 int/cha is pretty awesome playin as a zombie hybrid monk

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