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  1. #1
    Community Member Persiflage's Avatar
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    Default Fatesinger abilities adjusted?

    I could have sworn that Tailwind gave +2/+4/+6 to ranged damage, but it now appears that it gives +1/+2/+3 hit/+1/+2/+3 dmg... has my memory served me wrong, or have they tweaked this? If so, have any other destiny abilities changed?
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  2. #2
    Community Member bbqzor's Avatar
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    Its not you, it used to say +2/4/6 dmg. Apparently in 14.2 the tooltip was changed to +1/2/3. Then in 15.0, it was changed to add attack as well.

    I never used it so cannot verify what it was/wasn't actually doing, only the history of the text changes. It seems like it was never actually adding the 6 damage, and the tooltip was changed to match the actual effect, instead of the ability being changed.

    Perhaps someone who used it regularly can offer more details, but maybe this can get you started. Cheers.

  3. #3
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    No reason to nerf ranged DPS - none.

    This was not even that useful on most bards, and someone either had to build a ranged bard or twist multiple abilities to get it.

    +1/2/3 to-hit is more like 0/1/1 actual to hit nowdays anyhow.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  4. #4
    The Hatchery ferrite's Avatar
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    Slightly related, but the Tier 4 ability, 'Fragment of the Song: Clarity' doesn't seem to work. Specifically, the passive benefit 'All your songs gain 10% to their duration' doesn't apply the 10% to any song. Any other fatesingers mind testing?

    Regarding the Tailwind, there was no need to adjust it at all, the 2/4/6 damage was hardly noticeable anyway. In addition, the duration is not extended by epic song duration buffs like the above... another bug.

    Sigh..

  5. #5
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    TBH it seems like a lot of the Innate procs don't work in Fatesinger Tree.I have never seen Intoxicating Presence or Blindness go off,Reign does go off though.

    If you hit you +Artificer Damage boost of 15% I can see the difference easily but useing Inspire Courage with all the damage boosts in Fatesinger my damage doesn't change.

  6. #6
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    No reason to nerf ranged DPS - none.
    . <- This is about the only reply that the quoted statement deserves.

    I assume you meant sustainable ranged DPS, because burst ranged DPS from casters can reach ridiculous amounts that most definitely needs some sort of adjustment to the content. Even so, you are still wrong. Ranged DPS from AAs and Artificers is currently outkilling melee at an average rate of probably about 4 to 1 (rough estimate), and no, the close-range DPS of the melee has nothing to do with that situation.

    Every game change that doesn't boost the damage numbers of your particular character is not a colossal evil that threatens to destroy the universe. In this case, a bard with a cadre of artificers was probably considered to be a wee bit unbalanced (as in so stupid even the developers could see a problem).

  7. #7
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    . <- This is about the only reply that the quoted statement deserves.

    I assume you meant sustainable ranged DPS, because burst ranged DPS from casters can reach ridiculous amounts that most definitely needs some sort of adjustment to the content. Even so, you are still wrong. Ranged DPS from AAs and Artificers is currently outkilling melee at an average rate of probably about 4 to 1 (rough estimate), and no, the close-range DPS of the melee has nothing to do with that situation.

    Every game change that doesn't boost the damage numbers of your particular character is not a colossal evil that threatens to destroy the universe. In this case, a bard with a cadre of artificers was probably considered to be a wee bit unbalanced (as in so stupid even the developers could see a problem).
    Casters arent ranged DPS, they are spell dps. Nearly anyone who says ranged dps is talking about weapons.
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  8. #8
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    . <- This is about the only reply that the quoted statement deserves.

    I assume you meant sustainable ranged DPS, because burst ranged DPS from casters can reach ridiculous amounts that most definitely needs some sort of adjustment to the content. Even so, you are still wrong. Ranged DPS from AAs and Artificers is currently outkilling melee at an average rate of probably about 4 to 1 (rough estimate), and no, the close-range DPS of the melee has nothing to do with that situation.

    Every game change that doesn't boost the damage numbers of your particular character is not a colossal evil that threatens to destroy the universe. In this case, a bard with a cadre of artificers was probably considered to be a wee bit unbalanced (as in so stupid even the developers could see a problem).
    Your own post gets the because youre not even talking about the same thing this thread is about.

    Its pretty clear what I mean when I say "ranged DPS" because the ability we are talking about clearly describes what it affects. Casters are not part of the discussion, as the ability the thread is about doesnt affect them. This also has nothing to do with my character. This has to do with +6 damage per RANGED (bow, crossbow, thrown) hit ability that costs 3 destiny points, needs to be coupled with a bard song to get (which means 2 fate slots to twist), requires you to put another 3 points into another specific ability, that just got nerfed.

    Also, doing a small amount of homework before replying yeilds the knowledge that the extra damage is SELF ONLY. How was a bard with a cadre of artificers considered to be a wee bit unbalanced again? How is adding damage to user of the ability only (not their group) unbalancing all of the artys in that bards group?

    There are far more abilities in destiny trees that allow melee and casters to get far more than +6 damage per hit that require far less sacrifice to twist.

    How many people are going to use two fate slots on a non bard to twist tailwind for 3 self only damage per hit only on ranged weapons?
    Last edited by Chai; 08-25-2012 at 06:34 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  9. #9
    Community Member Persiflage's Avatar
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    Ah, I see, thanks for the replies...

    I wasn't planning on twisting it, but I was hoping to get just a little love out of the destiny on my Arti while levelling through it! As it stands, I'm kinda thinking of just sticking with Boulder Toss and Primal Scream and calling it good; Exalted Angel seems just too far away
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  10. #10
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Your own post gets the because youre not even talking about the same thing this thread is about.

    Its pretty clear what I mean when I say "ranged DPS" because the ability we are talking about clearly describes what it affects. Casters are not part of the discussion, as the ability the thread is about doesnt affect them. This also has nothing to do with my character. This has to do with +6 damage per RANGED (bow, crossbow, thrown) hit ability that costs 3 destiny points, needs to be coupled with a bard song to get (which means 2 fate slots to twist), requires you to put another 3 points into another specific ability, that just got nerfed.

    Also, doing a small amount of homework before replying yeilds the knowledge that the extra damage is SELF ONLY. How was a bard with a cadre of artificers considered to be a wee bit unbalanced again? How is adding damage to user of the ability only (not their group) unbalancing all of the artys in that bards group?

    There are far more abilities in destiny trees that allow melee and casters to get far more than +6 damage per hit that require far less sacrifice to twist.

    How many people are going to use two fate slots on a non bard to twist tailwind for 3 self only damage per hit only on ranged weapons?
    Chai, that guy is the games biggest opponent of ranged combat buffs. Trying to use logic with him where that is involved has proven to be useless.
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  11. #11
    Community Member pseudomasochist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferrite View Post
    Slightly related, but the Tier 4 ability, 'Fragment of the Song: Clarity' doesn't seem to work. Specifically, the passive benefit 'All your songs gain 10% to their duration' doesn't apply the 10% to any song. Any other fatesingers mind testing?
    The song duration bonus of Fragment of the Song: Clarity level 1 doesn't appear to be functioning.

    On my 16 bard/2/2 with Lingering Song IV, Inspire Courage normally lasts 7:12. Duration with FotS: Clarity 1 remains the same and level 2 bumps it to 7:36, or a 10% increase over IC's base 4 minutes.

    Also somewhat related, Aria's song duration bonus totals are 10%/20%/30% despite the description saying 10%/10%/15%.
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  12. #12
    Community Member pseudomasochist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcoffey View Post
    TBH it seems like a lot of the Innate procs don't work in Fatesinger Tree.I have never seen Intoxicating Presence or Blindness go off,Reign does go off though.
    The Blindness and Fascinate effects proc. They're difficult to notice in regular playing but let the monsters swing away for a while without Blur or Displacement and you'll see them both fire eventually.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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  13. #13
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    I have Ennervation Guard on pets Docet and it is easy t tell when that procs and it procs a lot.(it is 5% also like IP and Blindness)

  14. #14
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    Default Release notes are your friend

    Official Release Notes for Update 15 did in fact mention Tailwind specifically.

    Quote: Tailwind now instead grants the party a +1 to hit, and the Fatesinger an additional +1 damage with missile weapons. Unquote.

    It doesn't say specifically, but that is per tier of Tailwind, so 3/3 destiny points gains you +3/+3 attack/damage bonus.

    I completely disagree with the change, vehemently so, but I can also see that it was a tiny bit unbalanced, especially as the initial version (+6 damage everyone's missile attacks per attack) did in fact affect everyone in range of the fatesinger's song. Imagine damage output of a party of monkchers using Many Shot and arties using Endless Fusillade, both with damage boosts from human versatility or class-based damage boosts, then add in 10k Stars for the monkchers as well. Damage output: Sick on a bun, with a slathering of awesome-sauce.

  15. #15
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kakow View Post
    Official Release Notes for Update 15 did in fact mention Tailwind specifically.

    Quote: Tailwind now instead grants the party a +1 to hit, and the Fatesinger an additional +1 damage with missile weapons. Unquote.

    It doesn't say specifically, but that is per tier of Tailwind, so 3/3 destiny points gains you +3/+3 attack/damage bonus.

    I completely disagree with the change, vehemently so, but I can also see that it was a tiny bit unbalanced, especially as the initial version (+6 damage everyone's missile attacks per attack) did in fact affect everyone in range of the fatesinger's song. Imagine damage output of a party of monkchers using Many Shot and arties using Endless Fusillade, both with damage boosts from human versatility or class-based damage boosts, then add in 10k Stars for the monkchers as well. Damage output: Sick on a bun, with a slathering of awesome-sauce.
    The +6 damage was, and still is, self only.

    There are melee destiny perks that result in more than 6 damage per swing. Some alot more.

    There was no reason to nerf this ability. None. Turbine again shows they are afraid to allow competitive ranged DPS like other games have. They instead keep it a significant percentage behind melee DPS, even though MORE feat investment is required to maintain it.
    Last edited by Chai; 08-29-2012 at 07:47 AM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  16. #16
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Turbine again shows they are afraid to allow competitive ranged DPS like other games have. They instead keep it a significant percentage behind melee DPS, even though MORE feat investment is required to maintain it.
    Yea, well, it's ranged, after all. Low-risk ranged damage should never be competitive with high-risk melee damage, and certainly not sustainably, regardless of investment. I do agree that +6 damage isn't game breaking and there wasn't really a reason to change it.

  17. #17
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    Yea, well, it's ranged, after all. Low-risk ranged damage should never be competitive with high-risk melee damage, and certainly not sustainably, regardless of investment. I do agree that +6 damage isn't game breaking and there wasn't really a reason to change it.
    Its not low risk - this whole "ranged takes less damage than melee" thing is a myth in DDO. Casters are the most dangerous mobs. Getting held, stunned, or cometfalled = getting surrounded and pounded.

    MANY other games have been able to make ranged competitive with melee DPS and STILL maintain balance - which happens on both sides of the board. Mob archers become that much more dangerous as well and become more of a challenge to deal with, rather than every casters TorcToy®.
    Last edited by Chai; 08-29-2012 at 10:07 AM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  18. #18
    Community Member orakio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Its not low risk - this whole "ranged takes less damage than melee" thing is a myth in DDO. Casters are the most dangerous mobs. Getting held, stunned, or cometfalled = getting surrounded and pounded.

    MANY other games have been able to make ranged competitive with melee DPS and STILL maintain balance - which happens on both sides of the board. Mob archers become that much more dangerous as well and become more of a challenge to deal with, rather than every casters TorcToy®.
    The low risk comes from ranged characters being able to spread out and allows for them to more easily avoid effects like meteor swarm, DBF, cleave attacks on melee mobs. It isn't something that is a myth, but it isn't necessarily always true for every encounter either, some fights are not any safer for ranged than they are for melee.

    I know this, there are tons of times on my arti that I take advantage of the ranged nature of repeater+runearm combat and times on my paladins/fighters that I really miss it. There are other times that those melee characters are just fine and handle encounters with (nearly) equal ease.

    Also comparing DDO to other games doesn't really work, the gameplay mechanics and encounter designs are so different that its like comparing apples to orangutans. Games like WoW, Rift, SWtoR all have boss mechanics that are more punishing to melee or ranged depending on the boss and the specific mechanic you talk about.

  19. #19
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orakio View Post
    The low risk comes from ranged characters being able to spread out and allows for them to more easily avoid effects like meteor swarm, DBF, cleave attacks on melee mobs. It isn't something that is a myth, but it isn't necessarily always true for every encounter either, some fights are not any safer for ranged than they are for melee.
    Spread out doesnt mean lower or higher risk. Its just different. Its also harder to heal 2 or more people who are not grouped together. Its also easier to get singled out, held and beaten down when spread out.

    Quote Originally Posted by orakio View Post
    I know this, there are tons of times on my arti that I take advantage of the ranged nature of repeater+runearm combat and times on my paladins/fighters that I really miss it. There are other times that those melee characters are just fine and handle encounters with (nearly) equal ease.
    Melee are better most of the time. The nature of moving combat means we dont just stand there and take damage from every mob in the encounter. We use positioning that allows us to only take damage from the mob we are swinging at. If ranged toons (and ranged mobs) became more dangerous this would encourage tactics like pulling the melee mobs away from their archer friends to deal with them alone because those archers actually have to be acknowledged.

    Quote Originally Posted by orakio View Post
    Also comparing DDO to other games doesn't really work, the gameplay mechanics and encounter designs are so different that its like comparing apples to orangutans. Games like WoW, Rift, SWtoR all have boss mechanics that are more punishing to melee or ranged depending on the boss and the specific mechanic you talk about.
    For balance, comparing DDO to other games works well, because in those other games when they made ranged more dangerous, it became more dangerous on the mobs side as well. Balance to me does not mean every mob is equally dangerous to ranged as it is to melee. Balanced to me means ranged has the advantage 50% of the time while melee has the advantage 50% of the time. Right now the bosses we have are eiter random aggro, or they stare at the tank while everyone else stabs them in the back for long periods of time.

    We can be intelligent enough to analyze WoW, Rift, SWtoR etc and pull aspects we like from those games while leaving the stuff that we dont like out of DDO.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #20
    Community Member Ziindarax's Avatar
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    The level 5 innate granted by Exalted Angel has also been nerfed - Grants half-damage from light-type damage rather than immunity to it.
    Ziind Stargazer - Level 12 fighter/6 Barbarian/2 rogue Half-Orc (Neutral Good) - Formerly a level 20 Paladin Human - Orien

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