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Thread: Antipode

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    For an example of aligned breaking dr that antipode doesn't, consider pvp against a good-aligned player wearing a cloak of night.
    The fact that the player is Good doesn't mean Antipode won't break his DR/Good.

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    The fact that the player is Good doesn't mean Antipode won't break his DR/Good.
    You may be right. It won't actually do good damage to a good player, though, which is why I was thinking it wouldn't break good DR.

    If you're right, then I also wonder about the non-straightfoward answer.

  3. #63
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dejafu View Post
    Give Celestia, Brightest Star of Day Superior Radiance Lore and/or 120 Radiant Spell Power. Done.

    /And give the Star of Day turn-in reward from the Clerics of Amaunator Major Radiance Lore and/or 102 Radiant Spell Power while you're at it
    Hadn't thought of this before but it's actually one of the singularly most elegant solutions to getting divines to grind this raid other than hoping for Twilight (and subsequently ****ing off every arcane in a three mile radius).
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  4. #64
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dejafu View Post
    To be fair, if people ran the raid right now the same degree they did previous raids, most people probably would have the necessary heroic commendations by the time update 16 drops. Heck, I went from having no commendations to 2 on one character after one lucky run.

    The problem is, though, that people aren't running the raid that often. Too much bad press has been built up around it, and this isn't going to help. We need something over-the-top GOOD to be added to the raid to get momentum swinging back in the right direction.
    This:

    Quote Originally Posted by scoobmx View Post
    Across multiple characters and 19 runs I pulled 1. So you must have extreme luck. My situation is similar to many people I run with.
    Six flagged characters, over ten completions each--ONE commendation. ONE.

    I am happy for your luck but I'm absolutely not going to run this raid if I have to wait to get struck by lightning three times to upgrade a weapon I probably don't even have yet (only two of my characters have gotten weapons they've been looking for--the rest get junk weapons like Tinah over and over and over again).
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  5. #65
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Default Clearly!

    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    I know I'm a little late to this thread (was on vacation), but I have to say that I'm incredibly underwhelmed by these wraps. I'd much rather use the Grave Wrappings, which deal equal or greater damage. The quasi-Aligned property is nice, but these just don't offer enough else to qualify as raid loot, let alone raid loot that's hard to come by from the premier endgame raid.
    Where's the DPS?
    Seph is correct. Even the Turbulent Epee, a minimum level 14 rapier, does a better job of DPSing a wider variety of mobs. That's a slap in the face to all unarmed builds that want a weapon out of this raid, particularly because more than a few of the raid weapons here offer best-situational-DPS for their weapon type.

    Ninja spies and I'm guessing the upcoming Henshins will also in almost all cases prefer to use T1air alchemical wraps or Grave Wrappings which, in my experience with Caught in the Web, are far, far easier to grind. By a long shot.

    I don't think that adding metalline or one more damage mod (entropic would be nice, or even a non-damage mod like Greater Stability on Nature's Vengeance I'd accept) would shift the flavor or overpower the item at all--it would give unarmed builds a legitimate reason to run this raid.

    Augmented commendation grind
    No. Oh, and no. Also, no. Everyone is saying no. No. Don't do it.

    The only acceptable alternative I can see is having a commendation drop EVERY raid and a certain amount be required for upgrading an item, i.e. ToD's Shavarath trophies. Ex: one chest has a guaranteed drop rate of 5%[normal], 1[hard], 1d2[elite] commendations per completion and 5 commendations are required to upgrade.

    People like to see tangible benefit to their work (think successful raids like Shroud and ToD).
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by SealedInSong View Post
    Seph is correct. Even the Turbulent Epee, a minimum level 14 rapier, does a better job of DPSing a wider variety of mobs.
    Where can I get a +7 Turbulent Epee with Doublestrike 6%?

  7. #67
    Community Member Arkat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    Where can I get a +7 Turbulent Epee with Doublestrike 6%?
    And Stunning +10?

  8. #68
    Community Member Shmuel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feather_of_Sun View Post
    You are correct. They are all supposed to require three. We only became aware of the bug with this yesterday. It is being added to the next version of the Known Issues List, and we are currently planning to delay fixing it until Update 16 (which is a ways off), to give people time to upgrade any current weapons they have, or acquire before then, at the present upgrade cost.
    I've never said or really thought this before, and you can all give your canned responses thats fine.

    If you devs actually go through with this, without increasing the drop rate of the commendations by say, like 30-40x what they are now, I may very well quit this game and go find one that isn't using its time and resources to screw me over.

    The fact that
    1. you (devs) didnt know about this and
    2. you think changing it to require commendations is a good idea
    shows just how unbelievably out of touch you are with this game and what it is like to play it. I'm sorry, but the average korthos noob understands this game more than you **********s.

    I cant speak much about any of your computer programming abilities, but if you honestly believe things like this, or some other decisions that have been made to address "balance" and such in the past few months then
    You do not deserve to keep your jobs.

    Get a clue, then think about what that clue might mean, then maybe think about how to "adjust" and "balance" this game.
    cause right now you are doing about as well as a blind elephant trying to calibrate a triple beam balance

    Mitt Romney understands life in the ghetto better than you understand your own game.

    Stephen Hawking plays a better game of basketball than you play DDO (and at least he knows he cant play it).



    fanbois- bite me
    devs- delete my post and give me an infraction for stating what is obvious to anyone paying attention
    honestly when i see **** like this it makes me really not give a ****.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shmuel View Post
    I've never said or really thought this before, and you can all give your canned responses thats fine.

    If you devs actually go through with this, without increasing the drop rate of the commendations by say, like 30-40x what they are now, I may very well quit this game and go find one that isn't using its time and resources to screw me over.

    The fact that
    1. you (devs) didnt know about this and
    2. you think changing it to require commendations is a good idea
    shows just how unbelievably out of touch you are with this game and what it is like to play it. I'm sorry, but the average korthos noob understands this game more than you **********s.

    I cant speak much about any of your computer programming abilities, but if you honestly believe things like this, or some other decisions that have been made to address "balance" and such in the past few months then
    You do not deserve to keep your jobs.

    Get a clue, then think about what that clue might mean, then maybe think about how to "adjust" and "balance" this game.
    cause right now you are doing about as well as a blind elephant trying to calibrate a triple beam balance

    Mitt Romney understands life in the ghetto better than you understand your own game.

    Stephen Hawking plays a better game of basketball than you play DDO (and at least he knows he cant play it).



    fanbois- bite me
    devs- delete my post and give me an infraction for stating what is obvious to anyone paying attention
    honestly when i see **** like this it makes me really not give a ****.
    Well said sir, well said.

  10. #70
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Default Clearly not my point

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    Where can I get a +7 Turbulent Epee with Doublestrike 6%?
    Quote Originally Posted by Arkat View Post
    And Stunning +10?
    I can't really tell if you are both being facetious or really just didn't read past the words "Turbulent Epee."

    Let's compare Antipode 1:1 with the much easier to find Grave Wrappings.

    Enhancement bonus: Antipode wins with +1
    Extra damage dice: it's a bit tricky but in my opinion (and feel free to do specific math for this), I'd rather have 2d6 damage that hits everything rather than the possibility of 1d6-4d6 (on very rare targets) on some targets.
    Stunning: same value
    Doublestrike 6%: testing required to see what it stacks with
    Reinforced fists: +0.5[dice] for Antipode, can be garnered from off-weapon items
    Improved destruction: Grave Wrappings allows you to hit a bit more consistently and bypass fortification, though this can also be acquired to an extent (regular destruction) from off-weapon items
    Soul eating: 1d3 negative levels bestowed on enemies susceptible to level drain can amount to a fair amount of DPS, especially when factoring in variables like their increased susceptibility to instakill effects, Stuns, etc. +35 temporary HP is a wonderful boon to survivability when it procs
    Taint of evil: Grave Wrappings lose out here by bestowing a negative level
    Antipode: quite useful for being a grab-bag of alignment-DR-breaking but still likely outclassed greatly by greater banes in appropriate situations (again, math would be useful here). In the hands of a ShintaoIII you may not need to switch wraps often to break DR but I'd like to see some math skewing these over greater banes before considering them worth the absurd grind.

    Disregarding the significant grind it takes to make Antipode a conflux weapon (something not yet suffered by other relic-wielders until U16 according to F_o_S), I'm not seeing a skewed cost/benefit to grinding these wraps.

    Consider DPS average:

    Balizarde > eElyd Edge, eRapier of Air
    Mornh > eMournlode
    Celestia > eGaros, eMournlode, eZephyr, etc.
    Sireth > eSouleater, eStaff of Nat Gann, etc.
    Pinion ~ Thornlord > all other epic bows
    Needle > all other epic repeaters
    Twilight > all other caster staves

    Even one of the crappiest relics I've tested, Tinah, is still marginally better than other epic longswords I've crafted. So again, I ask, why exactly are monks being punished with a higher commendation requirement before U16 for a weapon that offers limited slot consolidation over a much, MUCH easier to acquire item that I'd argue is more useful for general use anyway?

    Going back to your questions, do I believe the Epee = Antipode? Of course not, and anyone can see that's a ridiculous comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by SealedInSong View Post
    Where's the DPS?
    [snip...] Even the Turbulent Epee, a minimum level 14 rapier, does a better job of DPSing a wider variety of mobs. [...snip]
    My quote was merely highlighting the silliness in having a ML 14 item that can break metal AND alignment DR and provide a consistent albeit random damage mod [Turbulent Burst] that you can grind in a few hours in the same game as an item that's purportedly relic status that ONLY breaks alignment DR and is hardly best in slot the way its other relic counterparts arguably are. Oh, and it can potentially take weeks or months to grind out the base item (unless you use Turbine points) after which you have to take more time to upgrade it to its full potential as a two-piece set.

    If someone can provide some meaningful math as to why we should grind these wraps instead of snarky insinuations that I think a heroic rapier is equivalent to epic relic handwraps, I'd be delighted.
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  11. #71
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    The only reason I want Antipode is to play around with the trinkets that go with it. It's hard to argue that the wraps themselves are really best at anything. They are decent at some things, but in general the role they fill is better filled by other wraps.

    I really think the devs in charge of looting up that raid really thought we'd be quite keen on the set bonuses. The unfortunate part is even after all the grind to upgrade the wraps, the wrap/trinket combo still doesn't get you that much more than other wrap/trinket combos that require far less grind. I suppose that's my issue with it. For the grind involved, I was expecting much more. The wrap/trinket set really isn't all that bad, it's just not worth the effort the devs seem to think it is.

    I'm at 9 runs on my main right now and 14 altogether without seeing a single commendation or loot drop in my name. If that's the expected trend, I have no idea how long it would take to get the 4 pieces necessary to get this sub par gear set.
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by SealedInSong View Post
    I can't really tell if you are both being facetious or really just didn't read past the words "Turbulent Epee."
    We read the entire line, which claims that "Turbulent Epee does a better job DPSing a wider variety of mobs". That claim is entirely untrue, because Turbulent Epee does not do a good job DPSing any mob at all.

    Breaking a lot of DR doesn't mean doing good DPS on many monsters.

    Quote Originally Posted by SealedInSong View Post
    Doublestrike 6%: testing required to see what it stacks with
    We all know what Doublestrike items do, and they're awesome. Do you use spare hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by SealedInSong View Post
    Antipode: quite useful for being a grab-bag of alignment-DR-breaking
    The alignment DR effect is not useful. When was the last time a Monk faced alignment DR he couldn't break by wearing rings or just being a Monk?

    Quote Originally Posted by SealedInSong View Post
    My quote was merely highlighting the silliness in having a ML 14 item that can break metal AND alignment DR and provide a consistent albeit random damage mod [Turbulent Burst] that you can grind in a few hours in the same game as an item that's purportedly relic status that ONLY breaks alignment DR and is hardly best in slot the way its other relic counterparts arguably are.
    There's nothing silly about it, since DR-breaking is not a major feature of Antipode.

  13. #73

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    Antipodes should have either:
    - metalline, and/or
    - lit strike / disintegrate effect, and/or
    - add some untyped damage as well say 1d6
    - some of the damage should be holy 2d6 not good 1d6 etc


    I have Antipode. They really are that bad much of the time. The majority of dangerous mobs have an alignment. Irrespective, you can get the same secondary effects elsewhere with higher primary damage:
    - reinforced: sun soul, caparison
    - stun 10: dun robar
    - doublestrike: does NOT stack with sun soul wind effect. Actually blocks both fom/doublestrike effect
    - variable 2d6 to 4d6

    So compare to other options:
    - +1 base stat versus +6 item
    - easy now to get 4d6, with up to 6d6 type, bonuses from random pull (eg. Mate pulled voltaic of phlebotomising)
    - random drop seems better

    Plus
    - grave wrappings
    - alchemical

    The planar conflux bonuses aren't pivotal.

    Why does this take 3 commendations to upgrade? You're still worse off than a random item

  14. #74
    Community Member Shmuel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SealedInSong View Post
    Consider DPS average:

    Balizarde > eElyd Edge, eRapier of Air
    Mornh > eMournlode
    Celestia > eGaros, eMournlode, eZephyr, etc.
    Sireth > eSouleater, eStaff of Nat Gann, etc.
    Pinion ~ Thornlord > all other epic bows
    Needle > all other epic repeaters
    Twilight > all other caster staves
    About handwraps i know nothing so wont bother to try and claim anythign. about these others, hmm...

    balizarde yes for most, unless you have a chr based toon, where elyd edge beats it, as it shoudl since its clearly themed for a bard.

    Mornh, celestia, sireth- maybe but all of them are weak compared to sos, and if this is about dps that is the comparison should be making.

    needle- yes for dps, although i would still prefer alchemical on my arty for utility. never gonna do good dps with a repeater anyway.

    pinion beats every bow by a lot, especially thornlord, which is already second rate to unwavering ardency unless you need to beat 2 types of dr and there is no arty around

    twilight? gimme a break. it garbage. especially in terms of dps, where random lootgen one handers beat everything, esp if paired with a t3 fire alchemical. if you are trying to max enchantment dcs then yeah its the best, otherwise not even close by any measure i can imagine.

    the grind for these is large since normal drops seemingly less loot than any other raid by a large measure, and hard is very tough for pugs and elite is very tough for the best groups.

    if you are then gonna need 3 heroics to upgrade them , with the heroic droprate as it is and nothing in 20th list, absolutely not worth the effort unless you are an archer, or a rapier/shortsword specialist. if you are qstaff specialist you obviously were never going for max dps anyway. luckily i guess a raid of all rangers, rogues, and ninja-spies can complete this relatively easily on norm if they can corral one cleric to come along.

  15. #75

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    Even after upgrading with Planar Conflux, I still think this needs soemthing extra:
    - another 1d6 dmg untyped
    - a lit/disint proc
    - metal bypass

    The difference for monks with some of the other combinations are:
    - unable to do expanded crit range or multiplier
    - doublestrike and reinforced overlaps with typical gear (i.e. blocked or doesn't stack)

  16. #76
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    Question If I could make a suggestion

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkat View Post
    Handwraps added to the U14 Raid - Caught in the Web:



    To truly make these a Relic desired by any monk I would make two changes.

    1) Remove Reinforced Fists and replace with Metaline.
    2) Remove Stunning +10 and replace with Entropic

    Now you have a +7, Antipodal, Doublestrike 6%, Metaline, Entropic

    Antipodal + Metaline gives Dark Monks a good reason to seek them (I play a Light Monk but still try to think about my dark brothers) and Entropic is basically a universal bane minus the extra bonus to hit and gives them the needed DPS to make them a viable replacement for everything minus Grave Wrappings (for stunning) and Epic Wraps of Endless Light (for Undead).

    With these changes the following would be less true for epic level monks:
    Quote Originally Posted by MajMalphunktion View Post
    *Handwraps. Yes we know. Here is my known issue for handwraps. Hand wraps in assorted flavors are borked.
    You could finally replace +5 Holy, xyz Greater Bane with Icy Burst as the default max DPS wraps. This would allow monks to free up valuable inventory. This would also have the added benefit of minimizing the issue with crafted Holy wraps not working with a Holy Burst ring.

    I don't see this as overpowering monks (these are supposed to be relics after all), but if you feel I have overlooked something feel free to make a comment. If there was such a thing as Entropic Burst then I would even suggest removing the Doublestrike 6%.
    Last edited by Marten; 09-17-2012 at 11:33 AM.
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  17. #77
    Community Member jbleargh's Avatar
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    First. Don't hate me. Got the wraps in my name in my 2nd ever run... epic normal pug.

    My monk (3rd life, light, helf cleric dilli) is wearing then almost exclusively to try to figure out how/where to use them.

    I'd like to listen to rules and maths experts.

    Before this Lit2 strike of luck, I was going to craft some +5 Holy of XXX Bane (can't make the greater banes now... maybe able to do them if I spend some boring time in the crafting hall).

    Anyway, 7 + 2d6 + 2d6 or... if I gather the patience maybe.... 9 + 2d6 + 3d6.

    I am quite sure the antipode is good against True Neutrals (7 + 4d6 + 6% doublestrike) and I don't feel like changing wraps when I got only one "immune" message (7 + 3d6 + 6% doublestrike).

    Is it correct to think that if each swing makes 100 damage, 6% double strike = 2d6?

    50 damage each swing... 6% doublestrike = 1d6?

    Can I safely ignore attack speed and other doublestrike fonts (grandmaster of air and grandmaster of flowers) for these comparisons?

    I got legendary tactics and a +5 stacking DC dun'robar ring... so my stunning fist DC can be around 55 without the +10 stunning or around 60 with the antipode.

    Do these 5 DC make any difference? I know that they don't in epic hard, but didn't do any epic elites yet.

    Thx

    Cogito ergo doleo
    Last edited by jbleargh; 09-17-2012 at 12:53 PM.

  18. #78
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    Cool my monk could use a new move

    Quote Originally Posted by xenobias View Post
    Love grave wrappings
    ok many people complain bout the limit of monk based attacks but most dont even realize there are a few with destinies for instance in sentinel with confront any foe there is a flip kick that does an extra 10d10 light damage also pally ability smite evil does a short backflip that performs the smite evil feat as well not much but with my heal monk and 40 cha 20 turn undead dbl strike 10+ it kills epic toons in one slap rather than hitting them for an hour and watching them miss...btw i realize its not much and only works with splashed monk builds but it still gathers a crowdhttps://www.ddo.com/forums/images/icons/icon6.png

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    Cool my monk could use a new move

    Quote Originally Posted by xenobias View Post
    Love grave wrappings
    ok many people complain bout the limit of monk based attacks but most dont even realize there are a few with destinies for instance in sentinel with confront any foe there is a flip kick that does an extra 10d10 light damage also pally ability smite evil does a short backflip that performs the smite evil feat as well not much but with my heal monk and 40 cha 20 turn undead dbl strike 10+ it kills epic toons in one slap rather than hitting them for an hour and watching them miss...btw i realize its not much and only works with splashed monk builds but it still gathers a crowdhttps

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