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  1. #21
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flaggson View Post
    Dance of Flowers adds 1.5 W... I can't see not twisting that.. specially with Improved power attack from LD... that means all your qstaves get a +2w
    add in the shalala druid spell and yay!!
    Well actually I'm debating taking LD as my ED instead of SD....so many Ds...I must be failing this course
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 08-07-2012 at 03:47 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  2. #22
    Community Member flaggson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Well actually I'm debating taking LD as my ED.
    I think it's a great idea
    Infynity, Flaggson, Grazzit, Liryc
    Yep, I think I facepalmed my nose off.

  3. #23
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    Why WF: Bludgeoning? It's not required for OC any more. Is there another reason?
    Varz
    Wanderlust

  4. #24
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emptysands View Post
    Why WF: Bludgeoning? It's not required for OC any more. Is there another reason?
    build was made before that change but luckily I'm no where near Lvl 18 so a quick edit of the first post added Improved Trip instead of Weapon focus
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    build was made before that change but luckily I'm no where near Lvl 18 so a quick edit of the first post added Improved Trip instead of Weapon focus
    Maybe drop Improved Trip and go HO for the extra +4 THF damage.
    Varz
    Wanderlust

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by emptysands View Post
    maybe drop improved trip and go ho for the extra +4 thf damage.
    ho?

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvenon View Post
    ho?
    Half-Orc.
    Varz
    Wanderlust

  8. #28
    Community Member Yin's Avatar
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    Default Re wisdom

    Just as an fyi, all you need to reliably cast druid spells is starting wis of 9 or +1 wis item. Why? Because ocean stance grants +2 wis. go into ocean cast shilaleigh and rams for 5 min and switch back to whatever. Gotta love monks. And rogues. And a level of druid. And sticks.
    Last edited by Yin; 11-20-2012 at 01:17 PM.

  9. #29
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yin View Post
    Just as an fyi, all you need to reliably cast druid spells is starting wis of 9 or +1 wis item. Why? Because ocean stance grants +2 wis. go into ocean cast shilaleigh and rams for 5 min and switch back to whatever. Gotta love monks. And rogues. And a level of druid. And sticks.
    1) why the necro?
    2) you sure about that? i was pretty sure it requires 10+ in the stat for the first tier stance, wiki says it's even 12+.

  10. #30
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    2) you sure about that? i was pretty sure it requires 10+ in the stat for the first tier stance, wiki says it's even 12+.
    That info is obsolete; the first-tier stances used to be Enhancements, same as the higher tiers, and req'd base stat 12 to take. At some point, monks got all the 1st-tier stances free at lvl 1 and can use all of them even if they dumped that stat. I know because my own Horcrobat dumped WIS and can use Ocean stance I just fine.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by emptysands View Post
    Maybe drop Improved Trip and go HO for the extra +4 THF damage.
    Sounds good. How would this do? Not claiming any originality here. Just trying to put something together from what’s been said in this thread so far.

    Mornckrobat: Monk Orc Acrobat
    Rogue13/Monk6/Druid1, Half-Orc, Lawful-(Good or Neutral? Why?)

    Attributes: Str18 Dex16 Con14 Int12 Wis8 Chr6, int tome at level 3 to qualify for Combat Expertise, all level-up points into Dex for Overwhelming Crit. (I’m not sure I’d bother with epic destinies until a TR or two, but could this be a reasonable epic build with these attributes? If not should I take Str at level-ups instead of Dex? I know acrobats get to add their Dex mod to sneak attack damage, but they get to add their Str mod to all attack damage, including sneak attacks.)

    Class order: R M R D R M R M R M R M R M Rx6. The alternating pattern is to avoid spending points on cross-class skills and to keep trapping skills up-to-date.

    The following breakdown does not take all skill points into consideration:

    At level 1 cap Bluff, Disable, Open, Search, Spot, and UMD. (I’m operating under the assumption that Improved Feint’s chance of success is based on Bluff, and that since it has been re-enabled, it works properly. Can anyone confirm or deny either or both of these notions?)

    At all monk and druid levels cap Concentration and Spot, except possibly at level 2 in order to avoid spending points on cross-class skills at level 4 (Druid).

    At odd-numbered levels from 3 to 15 (Rogue) cap Bluff, Disable, Open, and Search, and put the final point into UMD. At level 16 start adding Spot to the mix and giving extra points to UMD. (It probably makes sense to work on UMD earlier, stunting one or more of the trapping skills, but I don’t know which or when. I’ve never seen any UMD+ equipment, except a somewhat rare +1 BTC item from Korthos. It also sounds irritating to have to use an item so you can.... use an item, but I’m guessing plenty of people do it. I really need to create a macro system. I have a good idea how to do it with Autohotkey, but I’m clinically lazy—although also manic at times as you can tell from some of the wall-o’-texts I’ve posted. I think that writing more inside parentheses than outside is also on the list of indicators.)

    You wind up with 17 points spent in Concentration and 23 in everything else mentioned. This leaves 8 skill points available at level 1, 1 skill point available at each of the druid and monk levels, 1 at level 18, 3 at 19, and 3 at 20. (The level 2 point can be “moved” to level 4 or vice versa because of the overlap in druid and monk skills.) That means you can put 18 points into a monk skill (all but Concentration are shared with Rogue), or more if you give up some points from those 23s, which, in hindsight, seems like a very reasonable thing to do. What would it be? Diplomacy? Move Silently? Is 17 points in concentration enough or perhaps too much since there are only six levels of monk? How bad would it be to have no points in balance until you can take Acrobat II for immunity to knockdown?

    Feats: 1 & 2(M): Power Attack and Toughness in the order of your preference. 3: Cleave. 6: Combat Expertise (M) and Improved Feint. 8: Monk Path (Which one and why?) 9: Great Cleave. 12: Precision. 14: Dodge for Ninjorcrobat, T-H-F for Shintorcrobat. 15: IC-B. 17: Improved Evasion. 18: I-T-H-F for Shintorcrobat, T-H-F for Ninjorcrobat. 20: Opportunist
    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 20 Lawful Neutral Half-Orc Male
    (6 Monk \ 13 Rogue \ 1 Druid) 
    Hit Points: 216
    Spell Points: 210 
    BAB: 13\13\18\23
    Fortitude: 13
    Reflex: 16
    Will: 10
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             18                    18
    Dexterity            16                    17
    Constitution         14                    14
    Intelligence         12                    13
    Wisdom                8                     8
    Charisma              6                     6
    
    Tomes Used
    +1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills         Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
    Balance               3                     3
    Bluff                 2                    21
    Concentration         4                    19
    Diplomacy            -2                    -2
    Disable Device        5                    24
    Haggle               -2                    -2
    Heal                 -1                    -1
    Hide                  3                     3
    Intimidate           -2                    -2
    Jump                  4                     4
    Listen               -1                    -1
    Move Silently         3                     3
    Open Lock             7                    26
    Perform              n/a                   n/a
    Repair                1                     1
    Search                5                    24
    Spot                  3                    22
    Swim                  4                     4
    Tumble                n/a                   n/a
    Use Magic Device      2                    21
    
    Level 1 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    
    
    Level 2 (Monk)
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack
    
    
    Level 3 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Cleave
    
    
    Level 4 (Druid)
    
    
    Level 5 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 6 (Monk)
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Combat Expertise
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Feint
    
    
    Level 7 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 8 (Monk)
    Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness
    
    
    Level 9 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave
    
    
    Level 10 (Monk)
    
    
    Level 11 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 12 (Monk)
    Feat: (Selected) Precision
    
    
    Level 13 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 14 (Monk)
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge
    
    
    Level 15 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
    
    
    Level 16 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 17 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
    
    
    Level 18 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting
    
    
    Level 19 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 20 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist
    Last edited by Asanarama; 12-01-2012 at 03:56 AM. Reason: char. planner export was a mix of ninjorcrobat and shintorcrobat

  12. #32
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    I really recommended against the alternating Lvls It's just going to slow down getting the better abiltities,you best bet is to get druid ASAP it double your Q-Staff damage andd gets you extra str/damage, also get a monk level ASAP since it will get you stances netting another +2 str (in fire stance...-2 wis is meh...just switch to water stance to cast druid spells) it really helps out your early effectiveness

    My personal pref is Lvl1 Rogue to maximize skill points, Monk get stances and catch up concen since rogue took half ranks, than druid for shillelegh and rams might...on both the Monk and druid level you can easily ignore spot & OL their requirements are much lower that DD and search and you can afford to ignore them for a level or two, also you can let UMD slide for a few levels as well since it doesn't get high enough to be useful until mid levels anyways.

    Than I take a few rogue levels to catch everything back up with the excess skill points..at this point your so close to Acro1 you may as well take another rogue level or two to get it, than with everything caught up you can slip back into Monk to get NS1 getting you shadow fade,etc. just in time for GH and Necro where you gonna start needing the extra survivability.

    Of course at that point your skill points have fallen behind a bit (for me not much since im human with 14 Int) and all you got left is rogue levels anyways so in a level or two you'll be caught up on those and it's smooth sailing from there.

    Thats my reasoning for the level order I chose, mostly cause I can't stand alternating like that but either would work. Mind you in the end you get more damage than me whilst I get another feat...I'd actually be going HO as well if I didn't need the extra feat...although if Improved Feint is working again I'll need it.

    Oh and Monk path..Dark Side cause you need it for Ninja Spy 1

    NS1(Dark Path):
    +1D6 SA
    +1 Passive Ki Gen
    +25% Incorporeal Miss chance
    +2 Balance, Hide * Move Silently

    SM1(Light Path):
    - Smite Outsider ability
    - +2Diplomacy, Heal & Intimidate
    - Bypass Byshesk DR w/ Unarmed
    - Fists of Light (hit a guy with this and whenever you attack him you'll gain like 1-3 hit points)

    The +1d6 from NS1 is nice but the +25% Miss chance (stacks with Dodge and Blurry) is awesome the +2 Balance is nice (Hide/MS fairly irrelevant) and the +1 Passive Ki regen is also pretty awesome, as for the light side all the abilities require you to be unarmed to use and honestly are fairly underwhelming. On the other hand the Dark path does have an ability that's worth whipping out a pair of hand wraps called Touch of Despair...mainly it reduces enemy Fort by 25% which is amazing for you.

    Oh and Level up points should all go into Str unless you need them to reach 21 in Dex...my plan despite my OP is actually to go all Str than when I hit Lvl 21 or Lvl 24 I'll use the free LR to retake my level ups based on tomes I have used by that time (ie. with a +4 Dex tome I'd only need to use 1 level up)

    Lastly don't bother with the THF line of feats at all (I know it took me a long time to let go as well)...glancing blows don't proc SA and SA is your bread and butter all its does is attract aggro :P
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 12-01-2012 at 10:07 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  13. #33
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    I don't see a way to include my screenshot, so here's a transcription of my very confusing combat log. Auto-attack was off and I was using my dagger. What I've transcribed is the result of a single Improved Feint and single Cleave. There are no manual or automatic weapon swings:
    You make a Bluff skill check. You roll a 7 (+6): failure!
    You are affected by your mostly harmless.
    You have successfully used the bluff skill, and gain a 25% reduction to the threat generated by your melee attacks, missile attacks, and spells, making the monsters less likely to attack you for a short time.
    You make a Bluff skill check. You roll a 17 (+6): success!
    Your mostly harmless effect has been removed from you.
    You are affected by your mostly harmless.
    You have successfully used the bluff skill, and gain a 25% reduction to the threat generated by your melee attacks, missile attacks, and spells, making the monsters less likely to attack you for a short time.
    You attack Lesser Gray Ooze. You roll a 5 (+2): you hit!
    You hit Lesser Gray Ooze for 15 points of pierce damage.
    You attack Kobold Warrior. You roll a 9 (+2): you grazing hit!
    You sneak attack Kobold Warrior for 16 points of pierce damage.
    You attack Kobold Warrior. You roll a 2 (+2): you grazing hit!
    You sneak attack Kobold Warrior for 8 points of pierce damage.
    Kobold Sentry critically hit you for 10 points of pierce damage.
    Lesser Gray Ooze misses you!
    Kobold Sentry misses you!
    Your mostly harmless effect has been removed from you.
    Where to begin? Even though I fail my first bluff check, it displays text I wouldn't expect to see unless I had succeeded. This text mentions "bluff skill" but describes what happens if you use Diplomacy, not Bluff or Feint. Even if it were the correct message, it shouldn't be *my* mostly harmless. It's between me and a single opponent. It's *our* mostly harmless. It should be something like "You successfully bluff the Kobold Warrior." I wonder if this is just awkward phrasing or if it's indicative of a possible problem: a data structure that can't handle more than one bluff per character at a time. When I succeed at my next bluff check, the new "mostly harmless" seems to replace the previous one. For Improved Feint to work properly, they musn't replace each other. The server would have to keep track of this status multiple times, once for each opponent/player pairing. It seems to work to my advantage though as we see two sneak attacks. Maybe the second bluff, at which I succeeded, overwrote the first one at which I failed, and somehow let me sneak attack both targets. Apparently the results of cleave are displayed as having a main target, in this case the ooze, with other targets reported as glancing blows. Further testing is required, but it's possible that even if Improved Feint isn't working properly, it may be functioning in a way that has the same overall effect. Instead of getting to sneak attack some members of each crowd you try to IF, it either works on the whole crowd or none of them. Over the course of a dungeon things might even out in a way.
    Last edited by Asanarama; 12-01-2012 at 04:12 PM.

  14. #34
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    Default having doubts about the druid level

    I noticed that not all quarterstaffs are wooden, and that although I can cast Shillelagh on the non-wood staffs, it does *not* increase their damage. This is apparent from the details section you can display at the bottom of the inventory panel and is consistent with the behavior of the artificer infusion Insightful Damage. My wooden qstaff+3 changes from 4-9 damage to 5-15 after casting Shillelagh, but Nat Gann’s staff, which is made of silver, stays at 3-8. The mouse-over description of the icon that pops up after you cast Insightful Damage is worth quoting: "This weapon can use your Intelligence modifier for damage rolls if it is a crossbow or a one-handed melee weapon...." The way it’s worded acknowledges that you can cast the spell on items for which it has no function. Some folks think Insightful Damage works on bows, but it doesn’t, even though you can cast it on them. Shillelagh apparently behaves the same way with non-wooden qstaffs. This might also be related to the Druidic Oath feat.

    Specializing in one type of weapon is restrictive enough without also having to choose between being restricted to one type of material or losing a big chunk of the reason for taking the druid level. So, tell me why it’s still worth taking the druid level. Maybe there are some reasonably-obtainable wooden qstaffs that I need to learn about.

    Does anyone remember "Shelly the Shillelagh" from Zork Zero? I think the first item you can get in that game is a shillelagh, and the game uses it as a tutorial for the "name" command, which is especially handy for renaming items that are annoying to type. This was back before mice.

  15. #35
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    I’m wondering what folks think of my current build idea, but before the wall o’ text, a couple straightforward questions:

    Do cleave and great cleave have separate cooldowns?

    Does precision work on undead? My guess is that they’re immune to sneak attacks not because they’re fortified but because, being magically animated, they don’t have any vulnerable parts and therefore don’t need fortification.

    The build:
    I decided not to take epic levels into consideration. I’m focusing tightly on being able to sneak attack as much as possible. I decided not to worry about Improved Feint because I realized that for purposes of being able to cleave sneak attacks, diplomacy does the same thing. Also, because I’m disregarding epic levels, I.F. would be the only reason for me to take combat expertise. I’m not worried about Improved Trip because, although it is a nice feat, according to ddowiki, tripping an opponent does not make it vulnerable to sneak attack. I’m going half-elf for the extra diplo/bluff cooldown. Also, they can take str as their racial enhancement along with the dex class enhancement required for acrobat prestige, and with fighter dilettante they can improve the DC of sunder and stunning blow. I’ll be using improved sunder to help land stunning blow, which in turn makes an opponent vulnerable to sneak attacks.

    str15 dex14 con14 int14 wis9 chr13, level-ups to str, no tomes. Chr might look a bit high but I plan on using diplo, bluff, and umd, so it seems better to spend points on chr than on getting str a little higher. I like the point in wis so I don’t have to worry about an item or tome to be able to cast the spells.

    Monk and Druid levels cap concentration, diplomacy, and spot. Rogue levels cap bluff, disable, open, search, and umd. I should figure out what and when I can let slide to put some more points in balance so I don’t spend too much time on my back before acrobat2 makes me immune to knockdown.

    1: Toughness, 2: Power Attack(monk), 3: Cleave, 6: Stunning Blow & Improved Sunder(M), 8: Inev. Dom. (M), 9: Great Cleave, 12: Precision, 14: Dodge (M), 15: I.C. Bludgeon (I see London, I see France, I.C. Bludgeon’s underpants.), 17: Imp. Eva. (rogue), 18: <haven’t decided>, 20: Opportunist (R)

  16. #36
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    hmmm... ok, first thing with druid: what else are you thinking of adding? most builds are something like 13 rogue/6 monk/1 druid or similar. 14 rogue adds... pretty much nothing. 7 monk would add a bit more heal amp and wholeness of body (you should be able to heal with UMD anyways - if you want a nigh-infinite free healing source, get an eternal wand of cure minor wounds). 1 druid adds shillelagh which boosts certain quarterstaves (including some of the really nice ones), with the second choice for spell generally being ram's might. that's +2 to strength and +2 to damage (not including the strength) that stacks with everything else.

    also, it gives you a lever-opener if you need it.

    if you really can't stand shillelagh, i suppose you could keep the lowest vigor spell in instead, but ram's might is a really really nice spell.

    edit: oh, and cleave/great cleave are on separate timers. precision does work on undead. for your level 18 feat, you could try hamstring... you'd be surprised some of the things it works on.
    Last edited by Jaid314; 12-05-2012 at 12:13 PM.

  17. #37
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asanarama View Post
    Specializing in one type of weapon is restrictive enough without also having to choose between being restricted to one type of material or losing a big chunk of the reason for taking the druid level.
    True, some of the best staves are non-wood (e.g., Sireth), but plenty more are wood (e.g., epic Souleater), inc. all the new random lootgen ones, AFAIK. Plus as Jaid314 points out, you still have Ram's Might to boost your dmg.
    Quote Originally Posted by Asanarama View Post
    Do cleave and great cleave have separate cooldowns?
    Yes.
    Does precision work on undead?
    IIUC, you can make undead critable with fortification debuffs (inc. Precision), but they remain SA-immune (darn!).
    I decided not to worry about Improved Feint because I realized that for purposes of being able to cleave sneak attacks, diplomacy does the same thing.
    Ummm, not quite. If Bluff works, your target is SA-vulnerable for 4(?) secs; IF works on mobs in an arc in front of you. Diplo drops you to the bottom of the mob's threat list, but if there isn't anyone else nearby for them to aggro onto, they'll turn back on you; so it won't work if you're soloing or separated from the party etc. And even if does work, you may very well pull aggro again on your next attack. Also IF has an 8 sec. cooldown, while Diplo is 15 secs, so you can use IF nearly twice as often; plus it's on a separate cooldown, so if IF fails, you can try your luck with Diplo instead.

    IF doesn't work as well as I would like, but it definitely works better than trying to rely on Diplo alone.

    See my Three Ring Circus thread.

  18. #38
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    what else are you thinking of adding?
    For all the excessive thinking I do, I often fail to consider the most obvious things. Thanks. That's exactly what I needed to know. Druid is the best option despite Shillelagh's limitation. Given the Insightful-Strikes-on-a-bow thing, I thought I might have stumbled across something that hadn't been considered for this build, but I'm glad that's not the case. I'm already keeping the puppy parked at the dungeon entrance in case he might ever be able to grab my soul stone and run me to a shrine.* (It can be worthwhile to actually "pull" opponents--away from where they first appear--when soloing. Among other things, you're a bit less likely to get corpse-camped because they sometimes shuffle back to where they started.) I agree that Ram's Might is nice

    *Sadly that's all my drow artificer's Dynomutt is good for when I solo. My positive healing hirelings tear through their SP much too quickly trying to keep his HP up. They don't give me much opportunity to repair him myself. That and about 30% of the time he just chases the opponents and doesn't hit them. So he sits at the entrance and fetches my stone once in a while. Being a tank, he's gotten my stone out of some rough situations. "Me? No... I'm a... dungeon rescue dog."

    I take it you can hamstring things that don't have... hamstrings? "Hamstring" makes me think of the Achilles' Tendon. A couple days ago it occurred to me that a scene in the "Troy" movie is a good example of a feint followed by a sneak attack. Achilles runs straight at a guy, fakes to the left then jumps to the right and sinks his short sword into the guy's neck/shoulder area, ending the fight in one blow. You couldn't pull off a move like that with a longsword unless you had a Longarm.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asanarama View Post
    Sounds good. How would this do? Not claiming any originality here. Just trying to put something together from what’s been said in this thread so far.

    Mornckrobat: Monk Orc Acrobat
    Rogue13/Monk6/Druid1, Half-Orc, Lawful-(Good or Neutral? Why?)

    Attributes: Str18 Dex16 Con14 Int12 Wis8 Chr6, int tome at level 3 to qualify for Combat Expertise, all level-up points into Dex for Overwhelming Crit.
    I assume you mean level ups into STR for OC.

    32pt 16/16/16/12/8/6 with 16 +3(tome) +4(lvl) = 23 STR and 16 +3(tome)+2(lvl) = 21 DEX for OC and ISA. I think +25 HP is better than +1 dmg, biggest benefit for HO is the +4 THF damage, which is worth about 6 STR.

    A 36pt could be 18/16/16/12/8/6.
    Varz
    Wanderlust

  20. #40
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    if there isn't anyone else nearby for them to aggro onto, they'll turn back on you
    I don't plan on ever being alone, although it may happen from time to time. I almost always have a hireling when soloing.
    And even if does work, you may very well pull aggro again on your next attack.
    For what it’s worth, http://ddowiki.com/page/Diplomacy says, “When used successfully on hostile NPCs, they will leave you alone for at least 6 seconds.” Despite both of these points though, it sounds like IF is still worth taking, even for a half-elf with a 2nd diplobluff cooldown. Having one more thing on my action bars may be the straw that breaks the camel’s mind though, so maybe I’ll try HO’s passive enhancements in favor of HE’s activated extra diplobluff.

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