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  1. #21
    Community Member Tirisha's Avatar
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    My money's on the khopesh wielding str build rogue.
    Real life is a worse grind than any MMO.
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  2. #22

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    I used to have a str based rogue, but trying something different for the hell of it. I just use the free lesser heart on my drow rogue to get more dex and con and left str at the base of 8. Even with a base of 8 + 3 str tome +3 abashi +2 insightful +6 str item, ended up with 22 str. 24 with ship buffs, more with bard buffs and yugo pot. Dumped power attack and got precision instead. With mobs with low fort, with the epic feat, feels like doing more damage, easily over a hundred per hit with each rapier. In addition with assissin DC, rogues are definately up there in certain quests.

    Obviously with quests with alot of undead/constructs, different story.

    But overall in terms of survivability, I like monks the best. Good DPS against any mob, evasion, and with high healing amp, easily healed.
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  3. #23
    Community Member SensaiRyu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    Tops haven't changed much.

    mod/high fort: Monk.
    ED: Fury would be best, but has too many bugs negatively impacting monks atm (biggest being adrenalins not working right) ,so proll dreadnaught. Lots of monks go grandmaster tho for its insane epic moment.
    0% fort:
    What about adrenaline isn't working? I'm seeing incredible dmg with overload. And with it sometimes regenerating on a vorpal (Fury Eternal) I often have one to use.

    Fury with a Haste boost twisted in and sometimes extra action boost (10 haste uses) is a great combination - as you mention in another post.

    Adrenaline doesn't seem to be critting as much as it should. I hardly ever miss, so shouldn't I be seeing more crits when I use adrenaline? Or are the mobs resisting them... I haven't looked at my combat log for "resisted".

    Some pug-quest combos require GMoF.
    Stay Hasted My Friend.

  4. #24
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SensaiRyu View Post
    What about adrenaline isn't working? I'm seeing incredible dmg with overload. And with it sometimes regenerating on a vorpal (Fury Eternal) I often have one to use.

    Fury with a Haste boost twisted in and sometimes extra action boost (10 haste uses) is a great combination - as you mention in another post.

    Adrenaline doesn't seem to be critting as much as it should. I hardly ever miss, so shouldn't I be seeing more crits when I use adrenaline? Or are the mobs resisting them... I haven't looked at my combat log for "resisted".

    Some pug-quest combos require GMoF.
    Whats bugged is exactly what you mentioned in your third paragraph. Monks don't get the +16 threat range.. They get +0.

    Normally with adrenaline overload on a monk with ic, you should be critting on 3.

  5. #25

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    Just for clarity, with endgame now being elves paladin dps is miles behind any other melee class, yes?

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illiamfryn View Post
    As i was sitting today and doing calculations, i saw that a kensai 3 and a pure barbarian FB 3 have a str difference around 10 points. thats about 5 dmg, and 5 tactical DC which of course the kensai gets back with specialization, enh and all these things. We are talking fot THF in the calculations. That means that in the end we will have to compare LD and Fury.
    HO Barb can get
    20 base
    06 lvl
    03 tome
    08 item
    02 ship
    02 rage sp
    02 Orc STRII@9
    01 Exceptional
    03 Insight
    02 Madstone
    02 Double Madstone
    03 Primal stacked on Rage Spell
    02 Yugo
    =56
    08 Mighty Rage
    02 Orc Power Rage II
    02 Frenzy
    04 Death Frenzy
    04 Barb Power Rage IV
    02 Capstone
    02 Encrusted
    =80

    HO Fighter can get:
    20 base
    06 lvl
    03 tome
    08 item
    02 ship
    02 rage sp
    02 Orc STRII@9
    01 Exceptional
    03 Insight
    02 Madstone
    02 Double Madstone
    03 Primal stacked on Rage Spell
    02 Yugo
    =56
    03 Fighter STRIII
    08 Power Surge
    =67

    80 - 66 = 14 pt difference with reasonable gear. (52 - 42=) 10 point dmg difference for THF, more after crits.

    Biggest difference is that Barbs get 2d6+4d6 Vicious damage on all hits, including glancing blows, cleaves, GC, SC, LW, and MS.

    Fighters have to use tactics in order to make up the difference. A Fighter with OC+GTHF+Stunning blow will potentially beat (on trash) a Barb with GTHF+Stunning Blow or GTHF+OC.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Just for clarity, with endgame now being elves paladin dps is miles behind any other melee class, yes?
    There's still a fair number of Evil Outsiders over in FR. But yes, the majority are drow/variants.

    And yes, Palis still seem to suck comparatively. :/

  8. #28
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slimkj View Post
    There's still a fair number of Evil Outsiders over in FR. But yes, the majority are drow/variants.

    And yes, Palis still seem to suck comparatively. :/
    Well in relatively terms Pallis are less far behind then they were before update 14 from a dps standpoint, but they are still decently behind. Fury of Wild is a very nice destiny for them actually with the way adrenaline interacts with smites and the endless smite is a great twist.. On EOs pallys are just fine on others less so.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Well in relatively terms Pallis are less far behind then they were before update 14 from a dps standpoint, but they are still decently behind. Fury of Wild is a very nice destiny for them actually with the way adrenaline interacts with smites and the endless smite is a great twist.. On EOs pallys are just fine on others less so.
    Agreed. The power bump from EDs has made differences from Heroic levels less important, but they are still there nonetheless.

    I actively dislike levelling my Palis, and that's a shame. Just wouldn't want anyone to think that the addition of EDs had magically made Palis brilliant. They still need some love.

  10. #30
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emptysands View Post

    Biggest difference is that Barbs get 2d6+4d6 Vicious damage on all hits, including glancing blows, cleaves, GC, SC, LW, and MS.
    That's 21 average damage vs. fighter's +10 from feats/enhancements, which puts barbarians at about 21 points ahead of fighters on average, before figuring in the additional +10% glancing blows damage on the capstone (if they're pure). Oh, but fighter is gaining +10% double-strike, which probably closes that gap by a bit, if not all the way.

    But, then we have other considerations such as figuring out whether it's better to be in LD or FotW, and what twists you get. A fighter can go Fury and twist MS, LW and whatever else they want, whereas a similar barbarian would be looking pretty hard at Haste Boost. The fighter in LD can take more Str bonuses (or other stuff) than the barb spending AP on Haste Boost, and the fighter will always have more Action Boosts to stay Haste Boosted longer.

    Ultimately, yes, barbarians are probably ahead of fighters on DPS, but I suspect that it is by less than 10 points a swing after everything is accounted for.
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  11. #31
    2015 DDO Players Council Cetus's Avatar
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    Revive the sobrien dps challenge:


    EE

    Stun categories

    non-stun category

    You don't really need a healer with ya for the stun challenge for purposes of scaling, he barely hurts.

    Applicants post 5 entries, take average for a time estimate.

    Wold be interested to see barb fotw/ld and fighter fotw/ld variants.
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  12. #32
    Hero Nahual's Avatar
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    /signed what cetus said!
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  13. #33
    2015 DDO Players Council Cetus's Avatar
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    Hell just bring someone who can dance him, forget the whole chasing him around stuff. If we're only concerned with the damage output of a build - eliminate room for error via chases and occasional trips and stuns that he may land on you.

    Much cleaner comparison if he is just a target to beat down as fast as possible.
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  14. #34
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    They should create a "dps-testing" quest.

    Since they can show us the HP of mobs, create a challenge like quest-enterance for 1-25. Put a few scripted kobolds, zombies and whatever similar to the dummy kobold in the plaza. ie. they dont move or anything.

    Then given a fixed HP - say 180,000 at level 25 - we should be able to get some decent dps metrics.
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  15. #35
    2015 DDO Players Council Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emptysands View Post
    HO Barb can get
    20 base
    06 lvl
    03 tome
    08 item
    02 ship
    02 rage sp
    02 Orc STRII@9
    01 Exceptional
    03 Insight
    02 Madstone
    02 Double Madstone
    03 Primal stacked on Rage Spell
    02 Yugo
    =56
    08 Mighty Rage
    02 Orc Power Rage II
    02 Frenzy
    04 Death Frenzy
    04 Barb Power Rage IV
    02 Capstone
    02 Encrusted
    =80

    HO Fighter can get:
    20 base
    06 lvl
    03 tome
    08 item
    02 ship
    02 rage sp
    02 Orc STRII@9
    01 Exceptional
    03 Insight
    02 Madstone
    02 Double Madstone
    03 Primal stacked on Rage Spell
    02 Yugo
    =56
    03 Fighter STRIII
    08 Power Surge
    =67

    80 - 66 = 14 pt difference with reasonable gear. (52 - 42=) 10 point dmg difference for THF, more after crits.

    Biggest difference is that Barbs get 2d6+4d6 Vicious damage on all hits, including glancing blows, cleaves, GC, SC, LW, and MS.

    Fighters have to use tactics in order to make up the difference. A Fighter with OC+GTHF+Stunning blow will potentially beat (on trash) a Barb with GTHF+Stunning Blow or GTHF+OC.
    DPS is so much more than just a strength score, you've missed a lot of the fighters perks.

    There are also assumptions that I don't necessarily agree with. Halforc maybe the most solid choice for a barb, however in my opinion it is not for a fighter.

    Also, your strength calculation assumes a +8 item and an insightful 3 item for the barb with a crusty set. How do you plan on achieving that? The only places an insightful 3 item will go is trinket or armor, if it is armor you lose the seeker 10, if it is trinket then the str8 can go either on armor or the alternate ring, since your belt is taken and your bracers or gloves would be the claw set. Then that leaves the +8 item to go in the ring, which means you aren't wearing the stalker ring for manslayer and extra SA dmg and you aren't wearing a dun robar ring with stunning 10, which you'd definitely want for trash that matters.
    Last edited by Durnak; 09-26-2012 at 02:11 AM.
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  16. #36
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    nice proposal on these dps tests. It will shed some light on the post U14 status concerning dps. I would really like to see how melee fvs or clerics position themselves in these tests...

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durnak View Post
    DPS is so much more than just a strength score, you've missed a lot of the fighters perks.

    There are also assumptions that I don't necessarily agree with. Halforc maybe the most solid choice for a barb, however in my opinion it is not for a fighter.

    Also, your strength calculation assumes a +8 item and an insightful 3 item for the barb with a crusty set. How do you plan on achieving that? The only places an insightful 3 item will go is trinket or armor, if it is armor you lose the seeker 10, if it is trinket then the str8 can go either on armor or the alternate ring, since your belt is taken and your bracers or gloves would be the claw set. Then that leaves the +8 item to go in the ring, which means you aren't wearing the stalker ring for manslayer and extra SA dmg and you aren't wearing a dun robar ring with stunning 10, which you'd definitely want for trash that matters.
    Sure, I was just lazy - the relative difference is still the same.

    WS and GWS are +4 dmg in total, Fighter Specified Weapon Specialization I+II/AP = +2dmg, Kensei Specified Weapon Mastery I+II THF is +4 dmg. So +10 total damage. Kensei also gets seeker benefits and Crit Range bonus.

    From my calculations, the difference between two relatively well geared HO fighter or barb builds is 15%. Both with eSOS/OC+GTHF, but not factoring EDs. The Fighter can haste boost IV up to 10% more than the Barb in short bursts. This is with +7 gear.

    Finally HO 20 Barb with PA, IC, THFx3, C, GC, OC has one free feat. Could be toughness of stunning blow - so stunning blow not always baked in either.
    Varz
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  18. #38
    2015 DDO Players Council Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emptysands View Post
    .

    From my calculations, the difference between two relatively well geared HO fighter or barb builds is 15%. .
    Where are these calcs?
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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by slimkj View Post
    Agreed. The power bump from EDs has made differences from Heroic levels less important, but they are still there nonetheless.

    I actively dislike levelling my Palis, and that's a shame. Just wouldn't want anyone to think that the addition of EDs had magically made Palis brilliant. They still need some love.
    Learn to roll one and play it correctly then! My experience is completely different from yours.

    Also I love the way peeps in these types of threads berate anyone who suggests that other toons tool kits i.e. cc, blinding mobs, instant kills etc... should not be mentioned in a DPS thread as trash is irrelevant only boss damage counts, but then they go on to list sense weakness etc… that does not effect bosses, cracks me up every time.

    To the op I think everyone builds their toons according to their experience of the game and play style. So for example if you have a cleric who always runs with you and is willing to heal you and a caster with past life’s for dealing with all the trash you will roll a barbarian with all the gear as he will have highest boss DPS. However, you may find that sort of play style dull. My style of play is always geared towards self sufficiently and hence I cannot bear the one trick pony play style of a barbarian and relying on others to be really effective.

    My experience is a mixture of pugs, guild players 1-4 plus strangers or mainly soloing if I’m tring simply for speed reasons.

    So a better gauge of toon effectiveness and DPS would be solo quest/challenge completion speed.

    What makes a football team great is the whole team as a unit, only having great goal scorers is not enough.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormvent View Post
    Learn to roll one and play it correctly then! My experience is completely different from yours.
    Please do enlighten me. I like Pali PLs so if you can tell me a way to make it fun and address my main dislikes;

    • Slow run speed
    • Sub-par Heroic DPS
    • DM needing refreshing every &£%(ing minute


    then I'm all ears!

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